I would like to present a short argument for getting rid of the mental attribute (Charisma, Intelligence, Willpower) modifiers at character generation for Metahumans. Having modifiers, whether plus or minus, seem to automatically put meta's into a stereotype of thier race. Not all elves should automatically get a bonus to CHR, since in someplaces pointed ears can be a definate drawback, and not all Orks (or Orcs, depending on your spelling preference) should automatically get a minus mod on thier INT. I sincerely believe that the three mental attributes can be affected by the situation in which a person is born. An Ork that had good parents and went to good schools (and some of those do exist!) would most likely have a better intelligence than an orphan kid living in the barrens (which unfortunately also exist). I realize that these modifiers are also for game balance, and it reflects some physical limitations that cannot be overcome by birth situation. I for one am all about realism, even if it doesn't "balance" the game world. Meta's, especially the less popular ones, have enough going against them in the Sixth World. That should be your balance point, not chargen mods. Tell me what you think, and I welcome arguments for and against. Cheers!
Tim
Full Version: Mental Attribute modifiers at chargen for meta's
well, if not all elves are charismatic, than surely not all trolls are body builders with a stronger body either.
so nothing gets any bonuses or negatives at chargen. max 6's across the board at chargen too. The only difference is racial max's
so nothing gets any bonuses or negatives at chargen. max 6's across the board at chargen too. The only difference is racial max's
Good point. I had considered the viability of the physical mod's too, but I feel like those normally are warranted. Admittedly, even troll kids are quadraplegic on occasion, and even a full blooded dwarf can be normal human height on occasion, just like we have giants and little people nowadays. I've already house-ruled out mental stat mods, and I'll consider your point. Thanks!
Metas don't even come close to having enough going against them. If they did have enough going against them, several countries wouldn't exist and an Ork wouldn't be running a AAA megacorp with his Free Spirit ally.
That said, given the sheer range of what those Attributes cover, I see no valid reason not to keep them. It's bad enough how under-utilized they are claimed to be by GM after GM (or every other DSer). The argument for Charisma penalties and bonuses can be attributable in part to the aspect of (for example) Troll biology that makes them dumber than everyone else also co-opts the learning center that tells them how to act around people, something that is more highly developed in Elves (along with the stereotypical good looks). I'd suggest taking a more objective look at the mods before doing this, but either way I'm going to stand firmly on the side of canon because I dislike house rules unless they are absolutely necessary.
As an aside, I wish SOTA64 also expanded Improved Attribute to Mental Attributes while they were creating Social Adepts.
That said, given the sheer range of what those Attributes cover, I see no valid reason not to keep them. It's bad enough how under-utilized they are claimed to be by GM after GM (or every other DSer). The argument for Charisma penalties and bonuses can be attributable in part to the aspect of (for example) Troll biology that makes them dumber than everyone else also co-opts the learning center that tells them how to act around people, something that is more highly developed in Elves (along with the stereotypical good looks). I'd suggest taking a more objective look at the mods before doing this, but either way I'm going to stand firmly on the side of canon because I dislike house rules unless they are absolutely necessary.
As an aside, I wish SOTA64 also expanded Improved Attribute to Mental Attributes while they were creating Social Adepts.
| QUOTE (Aardvark892) |
| Good point. I had considered the viability of the physical mod's too, but I feel like those normally are warranted. Admittedly, even troll kids are quadraplegic on occasion, and even a full blooded dwarf can be normal human height on occasion, just like we have giants and little people nowadays. I've already house-ruled out mental stat mods, and I'll consider your point. Thanks! |
No, it's not a good point. It's a ridiculous confusion of mental ability and physical ability. The latter is the result not only of work put in but raw capacity. It is clear that a troll or ork is physically different from your standard human, and that's where strength and body modifiers come from. It is never made clear that they are mentall different, which is where this thread comes from in the first place.
Ultimately, there are two directions. If you feel that there are fundamental differences in mental capacity (not that that really makes a Willpower modifier make any more sense), then leave it as it stands. If you think that's silly as hell (hint: I do), get rid of them and enjoy your grittier game.
Arethusa, if trolls and orcs are different physically, why must we presume that their brains are physically identical, too. Maybe they just have some vital parts of the brain that are, on average, smaller and less wrinkly? I could open the "sentience" can of worms and ask; just 'cause gorillas are "physically" different, couldn't they also be as intelligent as us?
And be careful with that word, 'never'. Have you read 'everything?' I think the novel "Changeling" addresses this issue well.
Willpower modifiers: do some research on F.A.S. which is a form of (ta-dah!) genetic-level brain damage. So to me, it seems plausible.
And be careful with that word, 'never'. Have you read 'everything?' I think the novel "Changeling" addresses this issue well.
Willpower modifiers: do some research on F.A.S. which is a form of (ta-dah!) genetic-level brain damage. So to me, it seems plausible.
2 words: game balance.
This seems to be a bigger can of worms than I thought.
One other reason that I can think of to KEEP these modifiers, is that it helps really differentiate the races, and gives players a sense of how different meta's are from human. I just wish there was some other way to do that other than penalize some races based on what I consider to be stereo-typical "d&d" ideas of us vs. them. Straight up mods for new characters keeps SR from really being the one game (that I know of) that lets you create any kind of character in the SR world that you can think of. I mean, a concept for a really vain elf with a personality of some kind of hollywood starlet is right away invalidated by the minimum of 3 CHR. And my Greek Troll that I've been playing forever not only has to deal with the social stigma of being the "big stupid guy with horns" (which as a player is acceptable because that's simply how the world works) but also suffers in game with a -2 to his intelligence. Can you really tell me that all Trolls in SR are dumber than humans? Or is it simply that their brain works differently (NOT worse than) ours?
Tim
One other reason that I can think of to KEEP these modifiers, is that it helps really differentiate the races, and gives players a sense of how different meta's are from human. I just wish there was some other way to do that other than penalize some races based on what I consider to be stereo-typical "d&d" ideas of us vs. them. Straight up mods for new characters keeps SR from really being the one game (that I know of) that lets you create any kind of character in the SR world that you can think of. I mean, a concept for a really vain elf with a personality of some kind of hollywood starlet is right away invalidated by the minimum of 3 CHR. And my Greek Troll that I've been playing forever not only has to deal with the social stigma of being the "big stupid guy with horns" (which as a player is acceptable because that's simply how the world works) but also suffers in game with a -2 to his intelligence. Can you really tell me that all Trolls in SR are dumber than humans? Or is it simply that their brain works differently (NOT worse than) ours?
Tim
Yes, I can tell you that.
Except it isn't even true. Compare a max-INT Troll with an average Human.
~J
Except it isn't even true. Compare a max-INT Troll with an average Human.
~J
Yeah, the same way that my wife's arm works "differently" than mine. I can throw a medicine ball...
Not all trolls are dumber, but most are, and the smartest trolls are not as smart as the smartest humans.
I hear you, Aardvark. I think that the attribute penalties are the best way to deal with racial differences within the context of the game, it's just part of the downside of reducing myriad traits into six basic attributes. Intelligence is such an amorphous concept IRL, it's kind of ridiculous to reduce it to a number from one to six, anyway. (For example, one thing I don't like about the current set-up is how "intelligence" is usually synonymous with sensory perception.) It's a little too general, but that's the overall downside to RPG's, isn't it?
Not all trolls are dumber, but most are, and the smartest trolls are not as smart as the smartest humans.
I hear you, Aardvark. I think that the attribute penalties are the best way to deal with racial differences within the context of the game, it's just part of the downside of reducing myriad traits into six basic attributes. Intelligence is such an amorphous concept IRL, it's kind of ridiculous to reduce it to a number from one to six, anyway. (For example, one thing I don't like about the current set-up is how "intelligence" is usually synonymous with sensory perception.) It's a little too general, but that's the overall downside to RPG's, isn't it?
I have no problems with the mental Attribute modifiers, but if you get rid of them, then get rid of the physical Attribute modifiers, as well. Trolls, for example, already give you a lot of bang for the buck considering their cost. If you take out the mental penalties and keep the physical bonuses, they wind up with +8 to their Attributes.
How would I do it, if I wanted to keep a semblance of game balance? Let them start out with higher physical Attributes, but make them pay for them. In other words, make that troll's 10 Strength cost him 20 build points. And they should still have to buy the same "minimum" level for physical Attributes that they would have when they still had bonuses. In other words, that troll would still need to get at least a 5 for Strength. Since they have more potentially higher physical Attributes, let them exceed the recommended 60 point maximum for Attributes. But no more bonuses - and they should still have to pay something, point-wise, to be a metahuman, considering how much it would be worth for a human to have the equivalent of exceptional Attribute, multiplied, for one or two Attributes.
How would I do it, if I wanted to keep a semblance of game balance? Let them start out with higher physical Attributes, but make them pay for them. In other words, make that troll's 10 Strength cost him 20 build points. And they should still have to buy the same "minimum" level for physical Attributes that they would have when they still had bonuses. In other words, that troll would still need to get at least a 5 for Strength. Since they have more potentially higher physical Attributes, let them exceed the recommended 60 point maximum for Attributes. But no more bonuses - and they should still have to pay something, point-wise, to be a metahuman, considering how much it would be worth for a human to have the equivalent of exceptional Attribute, multiplied, for one or two Attributes.
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| Arethusa, if trolls and orcs are different physically, why must we presume that their brains are physically identical, too. Maybe they just have some vital parts of the brain that are, on average, smaller and less wrinkly? |
And more significant that the differences between male and female brains, natch.
There is no need to dissolve the racial mods. We see a certain set of rules regarding the 'attributes' of animals IRL. Why should an abstract system of rules be completely different than this to make it seem more realistic? If you want to build a smart troll who breaks the mold, then do so. There are other benefits (which also make racial sense) to take advantage of.
Its also worth noting that stats really only indicate POTENTIAL, and not how much EFFORT somebody puts into using thier ability. For example, a human samurai with a 6 intellegence may be perceptive and have a knack for learning, but he may also be a simple minded thug who never bothers to use words more than 4 letters long, or to plan beyond bringing a spare clip. While a troll hermetic mage with an INT of 4 (same points invested) could have a wide range of scholatic knowledge, be a meticulous planner, etc. The diffrence is partly in skill selection, and partly in role play.
I think mental stat adjustments are largely appropriate, but I do hope that SR4 will refine them some. From what I gather, there will be some new stats, so this seems likely. Better rules for social interaction will also help the charsiam / racsism situation some,
I think mental stat adjustments are largely appropriate, but I do hope that SR4 will refine them some. From what I gather, there will be some new stats, so this seems likely. Better rules for social interaction will also help the charsiam / racsism situation some,
Part of the reason that I like the mental Attribute modifiers is that I like to play things like troll faces, who kind of break the expected stereotype. I like that a troll face really stands out from most other trolls.
The idea is ridicules.
Yes some orcs will be more intelligent than some humans and the rules as they stand reflect this. The modifier reflects a shift of the curve, not what every member of the race is.
You say that intelligence is based on education, this is not entirely true even among humans today. And frequently there is a genetic factor as well as a environmental. Consider people in high school. Some barley attend class and still pass the tests with flying colours, some will study all the time and still barley scrape threw. This is nor an issue of environment but raw intellect.
Consider orcs and trolls to have a higher proportion of people in the later section and less in the former due to differences in brain structure.
Remember not everybody is created equal (as much as this conflicts with American historical documents).
Edward
Yes some orcs will be more intelligent than some humans and the rules as they stand reflect this. The modifier reflects a shift of the curve, not what every member of the race is.
You say that intelligence is based on education, this is not entirely true even among humans today. And frequently there is a genetic factor as well as a environmental. Consider people in high school. Some barley attend class and still pass the tests with flying colours, some will study all the time and still barley scrape threw. This is nor an issue of environment but raw intellect.
Consider orcs and trolls to have a higher proportion of people in the later section and less in the former due to differences in brain structure.
Remember not everybody is created equal (as much as this conflicts with American historical documents).
Edward
No, the modifier does not reflect a shift of curve. That's like giving a -2 Intelligence modifier to blacks because blacks tend to score substantially lower than whites on tests. Only, holy shit, blacks aren't inherently less intelligent, nor are the smartest blacks forced to be less intelligent than the smartest whites. It's not a shift in normal distribution; it's a shift in capacity. That is completely different. -2 Intelligence does not mean Trolls are less educated or misunderstood or any other whitewashing; it means they're stupid. And that, I take issue with.
And I don't. I feel that the difference creates a resentment that can't possibly be equalled by mere socioeconomic differences, and a racism that can't possibly be equalled by mere appearances and traditions. It makes the game more, what's the word, gritty.
~J
~J
It means Orks and Trolls are "stupid" the same way it means Humans or Elves are "weak" -- only if you judge them based on the racial average of another metaspecies does it become an issue. If the metaraces can be so physically different that they get massive differences in physical stats, why is it so much of a stretch for them to also have differences in mental acuity, perceptive ability, and logical reasoning?
Or, what, Orks and Trolls should only get physical bonuses and extra armor (and reach), and then the player should get to choose whether or not he wants to suffer the stigma of also accepting a few negative stat mods, too?
Or, what, Orks and Trolls should only get physical bonuses and extra armor (and reach), and then the player should get to choose whether or not he wants to suffer the stigma of also accepting a few negative stat mods, too?
Like I said, I treat it as a genetic defect. There are parts of the brain that are, quite simply, undeveloped or missing in Trolls and Orks that would otherwise be in a human brain. Same goes for the Willpower and at least part of the Charisma boosts. Regardless, I don't see the big deal. Without the mental modifiers, the designers would have had to fall back on sheer racism at the fact that you can play a character who is almost 3 times stronger on average than a human with no discernible drawbacks.
But SR has always been unforgiveably squeamish about racism, and the next thing you know we'd have the Troll version of the argument about why it's unfair that mundanes get screwed compared to magicians.
But SR has always been unforgiveably squeamish about racism, and the next thing you know we'd have the Troll version of the argument about why it's unfair that mundanes get screwed compared to magicians.
Troll /= black
Blacks and whits with similar backgrounds on average score similarly on tests (I believe, if this statement is wrong then blacks would have a stat penalty) the lower test average for blacks today comes from the unfortunate fact that blacks come from worse suburbs and have worse jobs. This means they don’t get as good an education (on average) preventing them from getting a high paying job and forcing them to live in a bad suburb where there children don’t get as good an education as they might. The range of potential among blacks and whites is the same, some blacks are inherently stupid, some whits are inherently stupid, some Asians are inherently stupid, some members of all these rases are inherently incredibly intelligent.
Trolls are on average quite stupid. Some are reasonably intelligent almost none are as intelligent as the best innately intelligent human (take the edges and you can have int 6) this is not environmental but because trolls have a smaller (or less efficient) brain.
This is how it is for trolls and they will pay for it.
In SR more than in the real world not everybody is created equal.
You could say that they are equal and remove the stat adjustments but why, there is a good reason for them to be there logically, flavour and balance wise.
Edward
Blacks and whits with similar backgrounds on average score similarly on tests (I believe, if this statement is wrong then blacks would have a stat penalty) the lower test average for blacks today comes from the unfortunate fact that blacks come from worse suburbs and have worse jobs. This means they don’t get as good an education (on average) preventing them from getting a high paying job and forcing them to live in a bad suburb where there children don’t get as good an education as they might. The range of potential among blacks and whites is the same, some blacks are inherently stupid, some whits are inherently stupid, some Asians are inherently stupid, some members of all these rases are inherently incredibly intelligent.
Trolls are on average quite stupid. Some are reasonably intelligent almost none are as intelligent as the best innately intelligent human (take the edges and you can have int 6) this is not environmental but because trolls have a smaller (or less efficient) brain.
This is how it is for trolls and they will pay for it.
In SR more than in the real world not everybody is created equal.
You could say that they are equal and remove the stat adjustments but why, there is a good reason for them to be there logically, flavour and balance wise.
Edward
I still hold with my original point--if you can find a reason to remove the mental minuses, you can find a way to concurrently remove the physical plusses.
Think of it this way, all of the metas are atleast somewhat a result of the Awakening. In other words, magic F'd with some things. Trolls and orks got zapped by a permanent Decrease Attribute (int) spell of a low force, while elves got the increase attribute (charisma).
but heres a few idea's, semi stolen from d20, on how to modify the races if you TRUELY feel the need.
1)Already semi discussed. Simply take awaky the minues, and take away some of the bonuses as well, Maybe for a troll, you decide that give that they don't have any mental deficits, they never needed to genitically develop the dermal plating either, and you bump atleast a few points off between str and bod.
2)Strip all negatives away from all metas, and make them all 20-30BP (i'd say at this point, elves and swarves should be at the low point, and orks and trolls are closer to 30 because, i think it's "safe" to say, in your game, physical abilities are most likely going to play a larger role than mental). "but wait! that puts them on par with a full magician!"
Yep, it does,because otherwise theres is absolutely NO drawback to playing a troll.
Think of it this way, all of the metas are atleast somewhat a result of the Awakening. In other words, magic F'd with some things. Trolls and orks got zapped by a permanent Decrease Attribute (int) spell of a low force, while elves got the increase attribute (charisma).
but heres a few idea's, semi stolen from d20, on how to modify the races if you TRUELY feel the need.
1)Already semi discussed. Simply take awaky the minues, and take away some of the bonuses as well, Maybe for a troll, you decide that give that they don't have any mental deficits, they never needed to genitically develop the dermal plating either, and you bump atleast a few points off between str and bod.
2)Strip all negatives away from all metas, and make them all 20-30BP (i'd say at this point, elves and swarves should be at the low point, and orks and trolls are closer to 30 because, i think it's "safe" to say, in your game, physical abilities are most likely going to play a larger role than mental). "but wait! that puts them on par with a full magician!"
Yep, it does,because otherwise theres is absolutely NO drawback to playing a troll.
There's very little point in talking about intelligence and race in the real world... The people who do "research" on it seem to be divided into two camps:
1. Crackpots with affiliation with some racist group, with a predictable point to prove.
2. Researchers who hold it as an article of faith that everyone is inherently equal in mental capacity, and are simply trying to find data proving that, not do real objective research.
There's not really any middle ground, because anyone trying to be objective will automatically be labeled a bigot and a racist.
Personally, I wish we'd just had the sense to admit this is one of those areas that's better left alone, because more harm than good can come of it, and get on with things, rather than pretending to do real scientific research on the subject.
1. Crackpots with affiliation with some racist group, with a predictable point to prove.
2. Researchers who hold it as an article of faith that everyone is inherently equal in mental capacity, and are simply trying to find data proving that, not do real objective research.
There's not really any middle ground, because anyone trying to be objective will automatically be labeled a bigot and a racist.
Personally, I wish we'd just had the sense to admit this is one of those areas that's better left alone, because more harm than good can come of it, and get on with things, rather than pretending to do real scientific research on the subject.
I agree with you mmu, except for the fact that it isn't "purely" genetics, or "purely" upbringing. I, for instance went to a suburban, predominately white school. There were a few blacks, some were really smart, others werent so. But the same can be said for the whites too. But consider this. If genetics didnt play SOME part in our learning capacity, there would be no such things as a learning disability. They are a function of genetics, not where you live.
this discussion reminds me of another that i was reading on another forum, in regards to paladins and slavery, there were some people that just couldnt beleive that if the DM made the world so that slavery in and of its self wasn't evil, that a paladin MIGHT take up the head of the orginization that oversees to make sure slaves are treated well, fed, cared for etc. They can't get our "real world" morals out of their "roleplaying" morals (didnt want to say "fantasy" as it might make poeple think i/they wanted to have slaves in real life)
this discussion reminds me of another that i was reading on another forum, in regards to paladins and slavery, there were some people that just couldnt beleive that if the DM made the world so that slavery in and of its self wasn't evil, that a paladin MIGHT take up the head of the orginization that oversees to make sure slaves are treated well, fed, cared for etc. They can't get our "real world" morals out of their "roleplaying" morals (didnt want to say "fantasy" as it might make poeple think i/they wanted to have slaves in real life)
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| -2 Intelligence does not mean Trolls are less educated or misunderstood or any other whitewashing; it means they're stupid. And that, I take issue with. |
It means that trolls, for some reason(s), are stupid. Even the smartest trolls are not as smart as the smartest human/elf/dwarf and that is canon SR3. If you wish to take issue with that, then House Rule it to suit your ethics/political orientation/moral code/etc.
The mental attribute mods do make sence, but if someone wants to play a smart troll (for example). Perhaps you can negoiate with the GM for an edge to negate some of the intelegence mod. Kind of like the exceptional attribute edge.
| QUOTE (Aku @ May 12 2005, 07:01 AM) |
| Think of it this way, all of the metas are atleast somewhat a result of the Awakening. In other words, magic F'd with some things. Trolls and orks got zapped by a permanent Decrease Attribute (int) spell of a low force, while elves got the increase attribute (charisma). |
Actually quite the opposite in fact. Trolls and Dwarves and Elves and Orcs and Dragons and Humans were all created at the same time. We're talking about a fantasy world here people. You're acting as if it's real. If you want to do that then i'm game. While you might like Tolls a whold lot, they weren't made as smart as Humans. If you want to blame someone, blame Nightslayer. Nightslayer was the First Named. He named himself and created all of the races. "Nine tears fell from its eye and became creatures where they splashed upon the Earth. The first of those was the Dragon, Dayheart, who proudly proclaimed her name. The others did not have Names of their own, so Nightslayer gave them Names. They became the progenitors of the Young Races, who even now lack the ability to Name themselves and must be given Names by others." (Unpublished book Dragons p 21)
And if you don't want to blame the First Named, then blame the Dark One, the Great Hunter, Named Verhigorm. He created Nightslayer in the first place.
Humans ARE smarter then Trolls. Trolls ARE stronger than Humans. It's a fact. It's the way that it has always been. Humans were smarter than Trolls when they were both created, at the end of the Age of the Dark One. Humans were smarter than Trolls in the 4th world. and then there weren't any trolls in the 5th Age, and now, in the 6th Age, humans are STILL smarter than trolls.
Trolls are NOT stupid, well, some are, but as many humans are as well. Humans simply have the potential to be smarter than any troll will ever be without augmentation. if you're so mad about having a Troll who isn't as smart sa the smartest human, (by the way, it's a VERY low percentage of humans that have Intelligence of 6, from experiance) give him/her an Encephalon or soemthing. WOrk around it. But, Trolls are NOT noturally as smart as humans. That's how it has always been and that's how it always WILL be.
And, amazingly enough, there are some humans who are smarter than all the rest. That's where exceptional Attribute comes in. If you dont' want a minus to a stat, take the edge.
Deal with it.
EDIT: Oh, and don't bring skin color into this argument. that has NO bearing what-so-ever. Trolls are NOT FASAs way of making fun or people with dark skin. There is just shy of ZERO prejeduce against what color your skin is in the 2060s (There's always that one guy who hates some random grouop of people). Really. That has NOTHING to do with it. So, I think that we should stop with that argument altogether.
EDIT #2: And, Intelligenge, in SR, does not in ANY way reflect knowledge. It is how smart you are. When I was 4 years old, i was just as smart (Read, i had the same intelligence score) as I am now. Now, with dedicated practice, and time, you CAN become smarter. You have to try REAL hard though. I didn't know ANYTHING when i was 4. But, I was smart. I could learn easily. (read: it took me less karma to raise knowledge skills) Being smart is genetic as well as a factor of growth environment. If i grew up around stupid people and was encouraged NOT to learn, then I would still not have those knowledge skills.
Mental stat mods..
Intelligence has been done to death.
Charisma.. Everything is relative to humans -- all the mods are from human, all the gear is human. In general, everything is 'human' oriented.
Why wouldn't charisma be based on 'human' as well? People tend to respond better to more attractive people, smooth or pleasant voices. They tend to respond well to graceful, elegant. They don't usually respond as well to hulking monstrousities. In fact, there's a certain level of fear I would say. So why wouldn't elves be more charismatic then humans? (Tall, more graceful and elegant, finer features, voice -- all physical, genetically influenced things, that favourably influence dealing with people.) Orcs and Trolls? They're bigger. Tougher. They've got tusks. Trolls have horns and a lot of bone deposits. Even with them becoming more accepted, I really doubt that there wouldn't be a small element of 'fear' when dealing with them. Instinctive threat assessment (because everyone does that -- it's a survival instinct). Not to mention the way tusks affect speech. Isn't there something in the BBB about how Trolls need massive dental surgery to put human inflections on words? That'd screw with peoples responses too.
Intelligence has been done to death.
Charisma.. Everything is relative to humans -- all the mods are from human, all the gear is human. In general, everything is 'human' oriented.
Why wouldn't charisma be based on 'human' as well? People tend to respond better to more attractive people, smooth or pleasant voices. They tend to respond well to graceful, elegant. They don't usually respond as well to hulking monstrousities. In fact, there's a certain level of fear I would say. So why wouldn't elves be more charismatic then humans? (Tall, more graceful and elegant, finer features, voice -- all physical, genetically influenced things, that favourably influence dealing with people.) Orcs and Trolls? They're bigger. Tougher. They've got tusks. Trolls have horns and a lot of bone deposits. Even with them becoming more accepted, I really doubt that there wouldn't be a small element of 'fear' when dealing with them. Instinctive threat assessment (because everyone does that -- it's a survival instinct). Not to mention the way tusks affect speech. Isn't there something in the BBB about how Trolls need massive dental surgery to put human inflections on words? That'd screw with peoples responses too.
| QUOTE |
| The mental attribute mods do make sence, but if someone wants to play a smart troll (for example). Perhaps you can negoiate with the GM for an edge to negate some of the intelegence mod. Kind of like the exceptional attribute edge. |
Even taking that a step further, you could just talk to your GM about possibly negating a couple points of the Mental Attribute mods(-1 to CHA and INT instead perhaps), but in the process bumping a couple points off Body and Str to symbolize harder studying, less workout, etc. (Typically that comes from the actual point distribution though.)
I find it's just easier to take the Exceptional Attribute edge, though. It's a good edge for those waning to break the molds of your troll or ork or something: and it will really make them stand out in the end.
| QUOTE |
| But, I was smart. I could learn easily. (read: it took me less karma to raise knowledge skills) |
IRL, there's an argument that we might be smarter at 4 years old than we are as adults, neh? We certainly learn (languages, etc.) easier.
I have no problem with the idea that certain genetic factors lead to improved or degraded intelligence, so I don't see why a group that is obviously genetically different than the mainstream couldn't possibly have differences in mental ability. If you don't want to think of it as trolls being stupider, then just say they've got impaired senses (poor vision, smell, etc.) In SR3, Int. isn't a stat that covers just your learning and reasoning abilities, but also your perceptiveness. (something that will apparently be split out in SR4).
(Noted by a person with [self-assessed] Logic/Reasoning ~ 4 and Perceptiveness ~2...)
| QUOTE (Aku @ May 12 2005, 07:40 AM) |
| this discussion reminds me of another that i was reading on another forum, in regards to paladins and slavery, there were some people that just couldnt beleive that if the DM made the world so that slavery in and of its self wasn't evil, that a paladin MIGHT take up the head of the orginization that oversees to make sure slaves are treated well, fed, cared for etc. They can't get our "real world" morals out of their "roleplaying" morals (didnt want to say "fantasy" as it might make poeple think i/they wanted to have slaves in real life) |
Screw that, if there's a world in which slavery is accepted the paladin might own slaves and beat them to near the point of death regularly because to them it just isn't wrong. Just because someone is a paragon of their own moral virtues (or that of their deity) doesn't mean that they are, in anyone else's eyes, "good people".
Put it this way: you have a foldable chair. If you damage or destroy that chair, do you feel that you have violated your moral code?
~J
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| No, the modifier does not reflect a shift of curve. That's like giving a -2 Intelligence modifier to blacks because blacks tend to score substantially lower than whites on tests. Only, holy shit, blacks aren't inherently less intelligent |
No, but the modifier to attributes indicates that trolls are inherently less intelligent than humans. This is a fictional world we're talking about here, and if the game designers say in the rules that govern that world that trolls are less intelligent than humans it's not because they are prejudiced against trolls, it's because trolls are less intelligent than humans.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Screw that, if there's a world in which slavery is accepted the paladin might own slaves and beat them to near the point of death regularly because to them it just isn't wrong. Just because someone is a paragon of their own moral virtues (or that of their deity) doesn't mean that they are, in anyone else's eyes, "good people". |
The problem is that D&D has an absolute moral code built into the game rules.
Beating slaves is never good behavior in that frame work, so a Lawful Good Paladin who beats his slaves is in violation of his alignment, even if his society sees nothing wrong with it.
| QUOTE (Little Bill @ May 12 2005, 12:55 PM) | ||
No, but the modifier to attributes indicates that trolls are inherently less intelligent than humans. This is a fictional world we're talking about here, and if the game designers say in the rules that govern that world that trolls are less intelligent than humans it's not because they are prejudiced against trolls, it's because trolls are less intelligent than humans. |
Hey, I've got this koo koo crazy idea. Why don't you try actually reading my entire post. You can do it!
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Hey, I've got this koo koo crazy idea. Why don't you try actually reading my entire post. You can do it! |
I did read your post. I responded to the most interesting bit.
In your response you go on to say exactly what he said next.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| In your response you go on to say exactly what he said next. |
Yes, but he said it poorly. Look at all the "racism!" posts that followed.
Plus I have no problem with trolls having a penalty in overall capacity.
Looking at the posts, I think he communicated what he meant fairly clearly—at least I have no question about it, so unless I totally misinterpreted it I don't see a problem with it.
As you may have noticed in my reply immediately after, I have no problem with that either. He does, but he has a problem with that penalty, not with some nebulous idea that in the game they really don't have that penalty and this is just reflecting some socioeconomic factor.
~J
As you may have noticed in my reply immediately after, I have no problem with that either. He does, but he has a problem with that penalty, not with some nebulous idea that in the game they really don't have that penalty and this is just reflecting some socioeconomic factor.
~J
| QUOTE |
| Humans ARE smarter then Trolls. Trolls ARE stronger than Humans. It's a fact. It's the way that it has always been. Humans were smarter than Trolls when they were both created, at the end of the Age of the Dark One. Humans were smarter than Trolls in the 4th world. and then there weren't any trolls in the 5th Age, and now, in the 6th Age, humans are STILL smarter than trolls. |
As I recall, Earthdawn trolls are just as smart as humans- no "perception" penalty, no charisma penalty and I seem to recall a slight boost to willpower. Orcs have a slight perception penalty, but its proportionally much less than in SR.
But ED has other signifigant balancing factors, and ED trolls may in fact be a somewhat diffrent creature, or at least somewhat differently affected. Higher magic level, better child care (nobody knows how to best raise toll babies yet in 205x) etc..?
It is indeed possible that some part of the Troll or Ork brain structure has not fully developed due to low mana levels.
Earthdawn racial modifiers:
Humans: +0 across the board.
Orks: Dexterity -1, Strength +3, Toughness +1, Perception +0, Willpower -1, Charisma -1.
Troll: Dexterity +0, Strength +4, Toughness +2, Perception -1, Willpower +1, Charisma +0.
~J
Earthdawn racial modifiers:
Humans: +0 across the board.
Orks: Dexterity -1, Strength +3, Toughness +1, Perception +0, Willpower -1, Charisma -1.
Troll: Dexterity +0, Strength +4, Toughness +2, Perception -1, Willpower +1, Charisma +0.
~J
I don't even understand what the controversy is.
Metas sometimes have lower mental attributes due to GAME BALANCE. You know, that thing, where the GAME tries to keep any one thing from becoming too powerful, i.e. troll running around with body 12, intelligence 9, and magic 6?
The basic idea that this is somehow unfair to a given character creation option (i.e. metaness) is so strange it's comical. It's like saying the 10M damage code is unfair to the Ruger Warhawk. So random, so bizarre.
It is a game. There are rules. The rules make sense in the context of the game.
Metas sometimes have lower mental attributes due to GAME BALANCE. You know, that thing, where the GAME tries to keep any one thing from becoming too powerful, i.e. troll running around with body 12, intelligence 9, and magic 6?
The basic idea that this is somehow unfair to a given character creation option (i.e. metaness) is so strange it's comical. It's like saying the 10M damage code is unfair to the Ruger Warhawk. So random, so bizarre.
It is a game. There are rules. The rules make sense in the context of the game.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| It is a game. There are rules. The rules make sense in the context of the game. |
But I thought we were discussing Shadowrun.
Then how about, "They're rules. They're non-negotiable, except that they are since you can House Rule trolls to be 6in tall and fly with purple wings coming out of their asses and who all have a +8 Int modifier along with the Body and Strength bonuses, the dermal armor and the thermographic vision."
There are a lot of reasons why I am sceptical of house rules or just don't like them, but mainly it's because of times when people want to play Trolls who get nothing but bonuses in spite of the rules, the lore, and the insanity of characters without flaws. Without the attribute reductions, as with certain other house rules I've seen over the years attacking fundamental features of the SR mechanics or world, it's not really SR anymore.
There are a lot of reasons why I am sceptical of house rules or just don't like them, but mainly it's because of times when people want to play Trolls who get nothing but bonuses in spite of the rules, the lore, and the insanity of characters without flaws. Without the attribute reductions, as with certain other house rules I've seen over the years attacking fundamental features of the SR mechanics or world, it's not really SR anymore.
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| Charisma.. Everything is relative to humans -- all the mods are from human, all the gear is human. In general, everything is 'human' oriented. Why wouldn't charisma be based on 'human' as well? People tend to respond better to more attractive people, smooth or pleasant voices. They tend to respond well to graceful, elegant. They don't usually respond as well to hulking monstrousities. In fact, there's a certain level of fear I would say. So why wouldn't elves be more charismatic then humans? |
The problem is that none of this explains why spirits like elves better than humans, human better than orks, and orks better than trolls.
Human standards of appearance would be meaningless to spirits.
The other oddity is that Charisma affects Intimidation. I'd be more afraid of the average troll than the average elf, yet in the game, the average elf would default 5 dice from Charisma to intimidate people, while the average troll would default 1 whole die for intimidation.
| QUOTE (Ed Simons @ May 12 2005, 06:48 PM) | ||
The problem is that none of this explains why spirits like elves better than humans, human better than orks, and orks better than trolls. Human standards of appearance would be meaningless to spirits. The other oddity is that Charisma affects Intimidation. I'd be more afraid of the average troll than the average elf, yet in the game, the average elf would default 5 dice from Charisma to intimidate people, while the average troll would default 1 whole die for intimidation. |
For the third time... It's genetic. The part of their brains that deals with social interactions is broken or missing.
As for Intimidation, Trolls may have to default to a lower Charisma, but they can also rely on
"Aggressor is larger/taller than target +1 (I'd add +1 for each condition)
Aggressor has more than twice the target's Strength +1 "
to easily make up for the -2 hit to Charisma (Having a high Charisma score actually reduces an Intimidation victim's TN, you know. So your average elf walks into the room with a -1 TN for their subject's tests) on the Open Test. Just because they're big, slow and dumb doesn't mean they know how to scare people. Intimidation is a skill, not an inherent attribute of a person's social repetoire.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| There are a lot of reasons why I am sceptical of house rules or just don't like them, but mainly it's because of times when people want to play Trolls who get nothing but bonuses in spite of the rules, the lore, and the insanity of characters without flaws. |
As opposed to the people who want to play elves, who get nothing but bonuses because of the rules, and in spite of the insanity of characters without flaws.
The books do not really touch on whether the "stupidity" of trolls is genetic or other wise. I simply refer to it as Reason X, whatever reason it may be, the end result is that trolls suffer a negative Intelligence modifier.
Ed Simons: Use the search function. In seconds you will find a multitude of arguments that Elves are nearly worthless and overpriced.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Ed Simons) | ||
As opposed to the people who want to play elves, who get nothing but bonuses because of the rules, and in spite of the insanity of characters without flaws. |
All metas get a net +3 attribute boost. Taking away the mental mods screws that all up.
And so in that context, yes it is insanity compared to elves. Elves are gifted to only get bonuses. But just like everyone else they still only get 3 points worth.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The books do not really touch on whether the "stupidity" of trolls is genetic or other wise. I simply refer to it as Reason X, whatever reason it may be, the end result is that trolls suffer a negative Intelligence modifier. |
No, it doesn't. But unless it's magic, genetics makes sense and environment makes none in placing a uniform ceiling on a whole race's mental abilities.
| QUOTE (Ed Simons) |
| As opposed to the people who want to play elves, who get nothing but bonuses because of the rules, and in spite of the insanity of characters without flaws. |
You do not want to drag the whole "Elves are overcosted for their BP costs" debate, do you? There is a whole thread in the old forums, just search for Polaris.
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