 SR4 FAQ #5--The Real One, No, I don't know why I'm up this late |
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 May 15 2005, 10:47 PM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298  |
Maybe you can explain, then, why the magic skills need a major change? |
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May 15 2005, 11:20 PM
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#102
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Well, making traditions more flexible while not overly complicating rules in itself is a good idea. It remains to be seen how it is implemented, but that's the second instance where the changes revealed aren't totally horrific to me.
Now, splitting the magic skills and the possible undoing of initiate grades and redoing of metamagic, on the other hand, sounds like it will screw up all high-level magican characters beyond any hope of conversion, and boy, that would suck ass. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 15 2005, 11:26 PM
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#103
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Guests |
It would be easy to implement under the right circumstances.
What they should absolutely NOT do is prevent any Tradition follower from ever being able to learn X Magical Skill or Y Metamagic. It will hurt any attempt at simplicity that way because now GM and Player have to keep track of what not to do, and that's not simple, is it? |
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May 15 2005, 11:30 PM
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#104
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
frostPDP, given that they're completely restructuring how magic works--to include Magic being bought as if it were any other attribute--why would you assume it costs 30bp to be awakened? heck, why would assume that 30bp even represents the same relative value that it has in SR3?
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 15 2005, 11:33 PM
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#105
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Guests |
Yeah, it'd be streamlined if it's bought like every other Attribute, negating any need for more chargen rules.
Hey, so are we going to get an infinite number of spirits now, or one group of spirits? How are their attributes determined? What's the difference between them? What about Free Spirits, Insect Spirits, Toxic Spirits, Shedim, Wraiths, Salamanders, Nomads, Faeries, the Wild Hunt, etc.? This post has been edited by Crimsondude 2.0: May 16 2005, 05:47 AM |
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May 16 2005, 05:52 AM
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#106
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Well even the most magic loving member of our group thinks that the awakened are overpowered for how much you pay for them. But mainly we where saying it was a shame that in SR there are no abscent minded professors and no exorcists. By splitting it up we get a lot more character variation. But the main thing is that astrall things just take too long and the rest of the team just has to sit there while the mage goes on astrall quests. (I'm the only one who seems to have this problem, most people seem to have it with deckers) |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 16 2005, 06:21 AM
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#107
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Guests |
Well, that's a first. But what is this about no absent-minded professors or excorcists? There are references to excorcists in several books. And the profs... God only knows how many of those there are out there. |
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May 16 2005, 06:24 AM
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#108
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
If you have that problem, use the "roll a bunch of dice, quick" method for astral quests instead of playing out scenes.
You can already have an exorcist by specializing in banishing. Granted, you can't have a pure exorcist; someone cannot be completely hopeless at conjuring and yet a master banisher. I'm not sure whether this will change in SR4, though--with attributes adding to all skills, one would think that conjuring would still be decent even without skill. |
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May 16 2005, 07:35 AM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
MFB, because generally when a game proposes there will be some form of "Conversion" for old characters, there has to be some relative comparison between old and new.
Ex: Designing a Street Mage with one system and another might give you slightly different results. That's something of a mistake, but it happens. With a small difference, that's fine. I figure there will be some similarities in SR4. I figure conversion is possible, thus making my Sorcery 7 character the equivalent of a 7 in the three new skills. Minor power tweaking aside, if SR4 drastically cuts a Mage's power it's pulling the rug out from under the game balancing of everything in the existing plot. I suppose the greatest thing I have is a fear that nonsense skill divisions will undermine an operating system that works fine. Your typical combat mage isn't going to focus much in ritual sorcery, so "game balance" won't be achieved in that way. Furthermore the breaking up of firearms into various skills wasn't done properly. It seems to me (again, drawing on various new-age stuff of today and yesteryear) that the sorcery aspect of the new FAQ looks pretty decent, though I see "counterspelling" as simply using your mana to defeat someone else's control of their own sorcery. The Conjuring, however, looks vaguely broken. I'm no expert, but wouldn't the binding be done with the summoning itself?? I mean, unless you're an idiot who enjoys having his tools eat him at first oppertunity... But I haven't seen a game mechanic yet, so you have a point that I am relating things back to SR3. That's all we really have to relate it to, considering they haven't said how magic is going to work precicely. Still, I'm on record as not completely trusting it. |
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May 16 2005, 09:06 AM
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#110
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
But without Skill you'd be Defaulting at best which was strongly hinted as still being problematic for characters, and at worst no Skill means you are not allowed to use the skill at all. I know that i have found the way magic set up to be kinda a blunt tool for describing characters. You could play different types of characters within it, but they all sort of were...fuzzy and out of focus. They tended to look like each other, and cutting out the skills you didn't need for the character generally involved not using stuff that the character had bought (with BP and/or karma). In that way I see the splitting out of Skills in the same vein as variable starting Magic. |
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May 16 2005, 12:19 PM
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#111
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 9-May 05 Member No.: 7,382 |
I think this statement is misleading. According to the polls, and by actual number of individuals actually opposed to these changes, you are a minority. A very, very vocal minority. Most people simply don't post 25 times per thread. I'm not saying that looking at things critically and forming a negative opinion is wrong. But I do think that some here are starting to resemble poop-throwing monkeys, even if they didn't start out that way. Loss of credibility extends beyond simply being a stalwart and therefore removing oneself from the market. If you have a point, you should be able to make it in no more than a few posts. Otherwise, you're posting just for kicks, ie: throwing poop. |
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May 16 2005, 12:48 PM
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#112
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
The thing about the polls.. is they don't help really. People may have said 'yes' or 'maybe' and had it later change to no.. it's been a quite a while. I don't even remember what I answered.
I do know that I'm firmly in the 'no' now. My group isn't switching, and I don't like what I've seen. It's looking like an amalgamation of D&D and WoD. WoD rolling, D&D-esque 'so simple a monkey could play it' and metamagic('feats'). I'm just not seeing any of the richness of the Shadowrun rules. Disclaimer: This is all my opinion. Those who have more optimism, feel free to continue to keep it. Also, however, feel free to not try and start an argument with me over it. |
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May 16 2005, 02:39 PM
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#113
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Greetings from Santa Fe, NM. Scenery's great, weather's great, glad you're all there and I'm here. :nyah: That said, I'm trying to get some wiggle room from Rob regarding being able to talk a little more openly about what's going on. I think the changes to Magic are good ones, though I've yet to play them much (been a little busy). And the day went well, thanks. :) |
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May 16 2005, 02:41 PM
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#114
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Especially since it's been said time and again that the chargen system, while point based, isn't the point system from the SR Companion? |
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May 16 2005, 04:02 PM
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#115
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
frostPDP, you're still making a lot of assumptions about how the chargen system will work. there's nothing to say that being a full mage will have the equivalent cost in SR4 that it did in SR3, or that skills will have the same equivalent cost, or anything.
in other words, i really doubt straight conversion will be possible at all, given the type of changes they've been talking about in the FAQ. |
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May 16 2005, 04:37 PM
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#116
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I am getting the feeling that there will be a lot of shoe-horning to get converted SR3 characters to comply with SR4.
I could see converting old magical skills to new magical skills based on scaled point buy costs from SR3 to SR4. And maybe specializations will have a weighting other than 1:1 for conversion purposes. Unfortunately, I am just whistling in the dark. To quote Sgt. Schultz from Hogan's Heroes, "I know NOTHINK!" |
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May 16 2005, 07:50 PM
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#117
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
MFB, my friend, I still think that whatever changes they make, Shadowrun will remain Shadowrun. Otherwise, it'll be Shadowrun + WoD + D&D in which case it isn't SR.
If straight conversion isn't possible, that would be a shame considering the leadups to the 2070 thing. It would actually be a horrible marketing ploy, since it would shut out any chance of me using 'Ol Bill as anything more than an NPC in the new world. I don't expect perfect chargen or conversion, but I expect something that is recognizable. Otherwise I have to stand pretty firmly in the no department - The changes and streamlining are clever, but the game isn't the same. Unless you wanna try to say Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights are the same, because simply changing the basic game format doesn't change the game. Which is clearly untrue. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 16 2005, 07:56 PM
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#118
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Guests |
Oh, really? What if you have multiple points to make, or have to constantly repeat yourself over and over and over again, which isn't exactly unheard of on DS. |
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May 16 2005, 07:56 PM
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#119
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
even if SR is still SR, that doesn't mean that direct conversion will be possible--and even if direct conversion is possible, it certainly doesn't mean that characters built in SR3 will be balanced for play after being converted to SR4.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 16 2005, 07:57 PM
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#120
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Guests |
You're not alone. Damn, where'd I put those ninja monkey assassins... |
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May 16 2005, 08:10 PM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
*shrug* I removed myself form the market the moment they made announcement. I felt (and still feel) that SR3 isn't so broken that it needs a new edition. Each new release only confirms that this is not a good idea. You are getting an all new game, from a company that has yet to prove that they can create a system from scratch. There are a few interesting nuggets here and there, but overall I really dislike the changes they are making. Have I made that point many times? Yeah. Are people listening? Dunno. Am I a Poop FLinging Monkey? Probably. (My wife thinks so :) ) But Poop Flinging monkeys are ruling the world. Do I really care that you are calling me a poop flinging monkey? No. I come here to discuss the new game. I try not to repeat myself, but it will happen. Which is not a first here at DS. ******************** Shadowrun Reloaded Shadowrun 2.0 Shadowrun II, First Edition (Of X editions) Shadowrun, The Return of the Poo Flinging Monkeys Poo Two, Poo on You. ..... |
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May 16 2005, 08:27 PM
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#122
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
A game you don't intend to buy? So what is the draw? You think Fanpro is going to change a game to suit someone that is steadfast in not wanting it? The SR3 boat is about to sail. You don't think you'd do well to hussle over and board it instead of wasting your time here? : :lick: |
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May 16 2005, 08:32 PM
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#123
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, it appears that awakened characters at least are going to be full redos. Whether they are suitable or not for SR4 play likely depends on the quality of the redo in fitting it to the desired power level in SR4 terms relative to whatever other PCs it will be playing with. |
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May 16 2005, 08:56 PM
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#124
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Hell, we don't have enough information or hard numbers to know if an unmodified pedestrian is playable after conversion. I guess us poop throwers will get our exercise until it comes out in August.
That aside, the FAQs are vague enough to inflict apoplectic seisures on those of us who are following with a critical eye to the effects the change will bring. Don't get me wrong, I like knowing something (if only to have more poop to throw), but a little something can be more painful then a lot of nothing. And don't forget, we asked for a FAQ blog, we should be glad they listened enough to provide us with one. And no, I didn't say you had to be satisfied with the amount of information we are getting, just glad that we are being heard in some small way. |
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May 16 2005, 09:03 PM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Glutton for punishment? Morbid curiosity? Like slowing down at a car accident.... I'm just really curious about what they are doing to my favorite game. So I'll stick around, discuss it, tear it up, and show interest in the few things I like so far. I was initially interested in some of the Matrix stuff - but that last Fanpro-D letter kinda blew that. Patrick described it as 'badly translated' - dunno what that means. But what was translated seemed pretty clear - and a little Too Much. So I will keep my fingers crossed. I hope SR continues, more books are publlished, novels, etc. And that I'll be able to glean a few tidbits for my SR3 Games. |
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