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> Security Guards.... just a job or a Profession?
Gambitt
post May 15 2005, 05:04 PM
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Looked a while at the myth of a modern shadowrunner post... and as far as a security guards job i just dont get it.
In SR, lets face it, its a dangerous place. There are some seriously frightning people out there, not just in terms of skills and contacts, but also in terms of killing power.
Really dont understand the moral point of view that someones just a security guard supporting his family by picking up a pay check.... its utter rubbish. If u want a safe job dont take one where you dont have a gun, and are expected to fight off anyone who breaks the Corps rules.
I remember taking a lot of moral highground crap for firing normal rounds instead of gel on a run. Now im not a psycho, but the guard could easily of identified me, so i killed him. Now i admit shooting to kill isnt nice, killing the provider of a family isnt nice either. BUT saying a security guard is just a job like any other, without any consequences is wrong in my opinion.
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Smiley
post May 15 2005, 05:22 PM
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I agree. To paraphrase, "If it's a choice between him or me, there is no choice."
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Kagetenshi
post May 15 2005, 06:47 PM
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Adam
post May 15 2005, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (Gambitt)
I remember taking a lot of moral highground crap for firing normal rounds instead of gel on a run. Now im not a psycho, but the guard could easily of identified me, so i killed him.

Seeing as these boards aren't In Character, for clarity's sake, you should probably not refer to your characters as "I". ;)
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Kagetenshi
post May 15 2005, 07:01 PM
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Maybe he's not speaking of a character? ;)

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hyzmarca
post May 15 2005, 07:20 PM
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There are many different types of security guards. There is the highly professional and will geek your hoop if you're not carefullful AAA paramilitary security. There is also the 70 year old Barney Fife wannabe who the some tiny D corphired to apease its insurance company. And, of course, everything in between.
Different classes of security guard should be treated differently.

As far as being able to ID you, that isn't a good reason to kill because of a little something called cameras. If the security guard saw you then security cameras have seen you unless you have a Improved Invisibility spell and the guard just got lucky or your teams decker has turned them off. The later isn't a guarentee because the complex may have independant cameras as backups, there could be a second host, or the guard could have eyecams and headware or external memory that can be recovered.

The best way to avoid being identified is to wear a mask. For that matter, wear gloves. Fingerprints are much more likely to haunt you than a visual identification will.
DNA is the worst. If the investigation team finds just a few skin cells there is little you can do about it. Gene therapy is possible but expensive.

That being said, if the guard is shooting at you you shoot back.

For non-lethal take-downs a combonation of DMSO, gamma scopolamine, hyper, and LAES works wonders.
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hermit
post May 15 2005, 07:58 PM
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Overall, in Shadowrun, sec guards kinda are in a position like Iraqi cops are. That is, not a very pleasant one. They're whom the powers-that-be have chosen to stem the tide of scum to not have to do it themselves, so their asses aren't in danger (because they pay you to put yours on the line).

They aren't really convinced of their masters and commanders being good, or even just on their side. They are aware that they're up against some seriously powerful and totally ruthless enemies (let's face it, in terms of ethics, most shadowrunners are on par, or even below, Iraqi insurgents; and that doesn't even take into account gangs and other scum). What's more, they're pretty certain their masters would sacrifice them without any hesistation to further the company's goals or increase profit by an iota.

But the economical situation isn't really terrific to put it mildly - massive unemployment (I count the SINless as unemployed - with SINners, it's about 10%, ir I recall correctly, in the UCAS; but about 10% of the total American population, if not more, aren't even SINned), rampant poverty, vast parts of every major city are lawless areas run by hoodlum and gangs and crime lords.

So, jobs are rare. Jobs where you are hired without decent education are even scarcer. Sec guards might be one of these jobs (strong turnover, and really, a grunt needn't know to write or do math). Furthermore, it isn't only paid decently; if you stay on the job through your enlistment, you get corporate citizenship - and with that, access to secure living environments, and even opportunities for better jobs!

Hence, there should be a lot of interest in that job, despite the dangers it poses (and the knowledge that, until you actually get citizenship, you're cannon fodder).

How loyal are such people? I'd expect them to not be too loyal, actually. If you join the sec guard force of some corporation because you need to support your family, dying isn't really high on your list of things you want - you don't live only for yourself, but have others dependent on your earings. Maybe not only your wife and kids, but also your brother's family, back in the barrens, and your elderly parents, depend on your one income? Seriously, you cannot afford to die.

Nonetheless, running like a dog at first sight of a punk won't really get you any closer to that corporate citizenship you really want to have so that you and your next of kin can live a bit less insecure than they do now.

So, what does that say about secguard morale? It will vary. Some guards will stand their ground in face of an enemy, so long as they seem to have the upper hand. Some will bolt as soon as they seem to be on the losing side (noone wants to fight to the last breath to protect some Shiawase toy storage facility). Hardly any will fight to the death - like all ordinary enemies mof shadowrunners should.
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Gambitt
post May 15 2005, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (Adam)
QUOTE (Gambitt)
I remember taking a lot of moral highground crap for firing normal rounds instead of gel on a run. Now im not a psycho, but the guard could easily of identified me, so i killed him.

Seeing as these boards aren't In Character, for clarity's sake, you should probably not refer to your characters as "I". ;)

Sorry Adam, my bad call there.

QUOTE ( hyzmarca)
That being said, if the guard is shooting at you you shoot back.

For non-lethal take-downs a combonation of DMSO, gamma scopolamine, hyper, and LAES works wonders.


My chars will certainly be looking into these options more providing they are available in SR4 (played SR3 for 5 years or so, but waiting a few weeks before we get the new one and try that out)

QUOTE (hermit)
They aren't really convinced of their masters and commanders being good, or even just on their side. They are aware that they're up against some seriously powerful and totally ruthless enemies (let's face it, in terms of ethics, most shadowrunners are on par, or even below, Iraqi insurgents; and that doesn't even take into account gangs and other scum). What's more, they're pretty certain their masters would sacrifice them without any hesistation to further the company's goals or increase profit by an iota.

But the economical situation isn't really terrific to put it mildly - massive unemployment (I count the SINless as unemployed - with SINners, it's about 10%, ir I recall correctly, in the UCAS; but about 10% of the total American population, if not more, aren't even SINned), rampant poverty, vast parts of every major city are lawless areas run by hoodlum and gangs and crime lords.


Depends how its GMed, if someone has a gun pushed in their face, then the sami has a valid reason to retailiate. If they play the part of "im sorry im just here to feed my relations and kids.. here take the master keys to the building" then thats different.
Suppose the point is, i find it hard to believe that they can act one way, ie. point a gun at someone(or shoot them), and claim its just a job they need to feed the family, whilst at the same time not expect a runner to deal with them as its morally wrong (more to the point have the other players/GM view your character as being in the wrong)
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hermit
post May 15 2005, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE
Depends how its GMed, if someone has a gun pushed in their face, then the sami has a valid reason to retailiate. If they play the part of "im sorry im just here to feed my relations and kids.. here take the master keys to the building" then thats different.

How they act when facing an enemy (ganger/shadowrunner/trespassing bum) depends on whether the guard has the upper hand (i.e. they have a gun and the enemy doesn't, he has more friends with him than the runner has, he is high on Kamikaze).

QUOTE
Suppose the point is, i find it hard to believe that they can act one way, ie. point a gun at someone(or shoot them), and claim its just a job they need to feed the family, whilst at the same time not expect a runner to deal with them as its morally wrong (more to the point have the other players/GM view your character as being in the wrong)

Why is that so hard to believe? He will of course act in a different way depending on whether he is in a superior position (see above) or is staring down the Troll Sammy's Vindicator's business end.

I don't really get the morality point though. Again, please imagine shadowrunners to have the image of (and often, act every bit as savage) as Iraqi resistance fighters. You know, killing hosts of innocents, murdering hostages, ect. Don't tell me your group hasn't ever done such things!
Besides, what wopuld a captured soldier tell his captors, after he gunned down two or more of their platoon? How he hates them and wants to see them choked with thier own guts? Or maybe beg for mercy and hope he won't be shot on the spot?
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post May 15 2005, 11:19 PM
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And here I was always under the impression that killing hosts of innocents and hostages was a sign of unprofessionalism, or at the very least stupidity.
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Critias
post May 15 2005, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE (hermit)
Again, please imagine shadowrunners to have the image of (and often, act every bit as savage) as Iraqi resistance fighters. You know, killing hosts of innocents, murdering hostages, ect.

Uhm...what?

There's a world of difference between "Iraqi Resistance Fighters" and "Bank Robbers." Shadowrunners tend to fall somewhere in between (quite a few people claim to aspire towards the Heat or Ronin crowds, for instance). I guess, depending on the campaign, you could reach a level where you're in a very specialized game setting and are in the middle of something where hacking off a live man's head with a machete and recording it are reasonable methods of handling something somehow related to Shadowrunners -- but I doubt it (and even so, it's then such a specialized and off-the-beaten-path game that it doesn't matter to what we're all talking about).

Shadowrunner's are professional criminals. Pro's don't kill people for no reason (especially not "hosts of innocents"). They don't often take hostages in the first place, and when they do they certainly don't kill them (a dead hostage is a thrown away bargaining chip). They don't go on murdering sprees, they remove obstacles from their path.

Every death must serve a purpose, to someone who wants to last any length of time (in body or soul). It has to remove a vital link from an enemy chain. It has to secure a paycheck. It has to protect a secret. It was to nullify a threat. You don't kill for killing's sake. They kill when they have to.
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post May 15 2005, 11:45 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
There's a world of difference between "Iraqi Resistance Fighters" and "Bank Robbers."  Shadowrunners tend to fall somewhere in between (quite a few people claim to aspire towards the Heat or Ronin crowds, for instance).

And by "quite a few" you mean "we few lunatics," apparently. Although Ronin is not my personal idea of how runners should behave since they take out bystanders on three separate occassions (two within one scene).

QUOTE
They kill when they have to.

Indeed, just like in Heat. Like Hanna said, "Once they killed the first two guards, they didn't hesitate. Kill guard number three, because, what difference does it make? Why leave a living witness." They were pros who knew the law, and as far as the law was concerned the second the first guard got popped they were all facing the death penalty for felony-murder. At that point, they had absolutely no logical reason not to kill the other two guards, and a very good reason to do so.

Same with the big shootout. Once bullet started flying, every life in their way was expendable because, "what difference did it make?" None. That's why I think Gingerbread Man's description of a run gone bad in Denver is full of shit. Once the job got blown, their goal was to leave as quickly as humanly possible and to Hell with the lives of anyone in your way. It's not like extraterritorial corps will extend you the courtesy if you get caught unless you're really good or really lucky. And by "extend you the courtesy" I mean that you may as well expect that in return you're going to be sent on a suicide mission. In the end, the result's the same.
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hermit
post May 15 2005, 11:47 PM
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Critas, that describes the ideal shadowrunner group I haven't yet seen in a single gaming group, ever. At best, there always was a renegade killer player. Even though my current group is quite close to that, I must say that most gaming groups I know play shadowrun to blow things up and kill people.

And I wasn't talking about their conduct, I was talking about the *image* they get. I don't believe every last Iraqi insurgent is a head-cutting religious nutjob foreigner either (though Western media really try to make that point). Most are Baathist soldiers who have one or another grudge against the new government. Most don't kill just for killing's sake, and since most actually plan to live in the place where they operate (and propably depend on the locals' support o continue operating), I wouldn't think they all go and blow up Iraqis at every instance they can.

Yet, they're painted as those nutjob killers who send out tapes where they lob off heads. I'd expect the same with shadowrunners. All it takes is one psycho troll with a laser axe.

And who hasn't seen one of these in his games?
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post May 15 2005, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ May 15 2005, 05:47 PM)
Critas, that describes the ideal shadowrunner group I haven't yet seen in a single gaming group, ever. At best, there always was a renegade killer player. Even though my current group is quite close to that, I must say that most gaming groups I know play shadowrun to blow things up and kill people.

Then you know some dipshit teams.
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TenTonHammer
post May 16 2005, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE (hermit)

I don't believe every last Iraqi insurgent is a head-cutting religious nutjob foreigner either (though Western media really try to make that point). Most are Baathist soldiers who have one or another grudge against the new government. Most don't kill just for killing's sake, and since most actually plan to live in the place where they operate (and propably depend on the locals' support o continue operating), I wouldn't think they all go and blow up Iraqis at every instance they can.

Yet, they're painted as those nutjob killers who send out tapes where they lob off heads.

So where in Iraqi are you living? Ive been there once, and im standing up to go again.

Well you may be right. Why kill the people that you rape and steal from on a daily basis?

Oh and Ill make sure to ask the unarmed civilians they DO shoot at for the sake of trying to flush out their evil asses. If we portray the Terrorists wrong.

If you get the chance to go over there speak with some Iraqis, they love us being there. We give them running water, sewer systems, power. Things they haven't had in a very long time. Why fight that? For the simple reason because most ARE religous Zealots, thinking they will lose thier culture and their religion because we are there.
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Kagetenshi
post May 16 2005, 01:45 AM
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toturi
post May 16 2005, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Critias)
Every death must serve a purpose, to someone who wants to last any length of time (in body or soul). It has to remove a vital link from an enemy chain. It has to secure a paycheck. It has to protect a secret. It was to nullify a threat. You don't kill for killing's sake. They kill when they have to.

They kill because that's good PR. If you have a reputation for violence, then who would resist you? If you have a reputation for violence that cows even the corps and sec forces, who wouldn't hire you?
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scoundrel
post May 16 2005, 02:06 AM
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Frankly, I think it's a bit silly to view a reputation for violence as a good thing in a world where firearms are the weapons of choice.
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Kagetenshi
post May 16 2005, 02:17 AM
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Why?

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Smiley
post May 16 2005, 02:21 AM
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In a profession where violence is a prerequisite, a reputation for actually doing the required violence and not wussing out is more beneficial than hesitating when someone needs neutralizing.
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scoundrel
post May 16 2005, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Why?

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Because no corporation would actually get "cowed" regardless of how trigger happy you are. There's no point in killing more people than necessary just to let people know that you're a violent guy.
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hyzmarca
post May 16 2005, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE (TenTonHammer)
QUOTE (hermit)

I don't believe every last Iraqi insurgent is a head-cutting religious nutjob foreigner either (though Western media really try to make that point). Most are Baathist soldiers who have one or another grudge against the new government. Most don't kill just for killing's sake, and since most actually plan to live in the place where they operate (and propably depend on the locals' support o continue operating), I wouldn't think they all go and blow up Iraqis at every instance they can.

Yet, they're painted as those nutjob killers who send out tapes where they lob off heads.

So where in Iraqi are you living? Ive been there once, and im standing up to go again.

Well you may be right. Why kill the people that you rape and steal from on a daily basis?

Oh and Ill make sure to ask the unarmed civilians they DO shoot at for the sake of trying to flush out their evil asses. If we portray the Terrorists wrong.

If you get the chance to go over there speak with some Iraqis, they love us being there. We give them running water, sewer systems, power. Things they haven't had in a very long time. Why fight that? For the simple reason because most ARE religous Zealots, thinking they will lose thier culture and their religion because we are there.

I've just playing Devil's Advocate here but they did have power and running water before some country (I'm no tgoing to mention any names) invaded them and destroyed all of that.

Compare it to this hypothetical and somewhat improbable situation. Insted of the Soviet Union collapsing at the end of the Cold War hardliners win out and stage a suprise attack against the United States. The primary attack is a massive series of high-altitude EMP detonations that destroys most electronic circuts in the country and annhilates the US civil and military infrastructure in one fell swoop. Afterwards it is simple for Soviet ground troops to come in and occuply the US.

Now, the first things the Soviet Union do are begin restoring the ruined infrastructure and installing a Democratic government to replace the deposed Capitolist Oligarcy.
They're giving the US running water and electricity and most people are very happy with that. After all, the government doesn't matter as long as people can go about their daily lives. However, there will be some economic and patriotic zellots who either believe that all nations should be rulled by capitolist governments or who simply want independance from occupation no matter the cost.


A reputation for excessive violance isn't necessarilary good for a shadowrunner's career. Excessive violence is easily noticed and people want justice when deahs occur. Shadowrunners are hired for deniability. When major governments are pressured by their constitutiants to investigate very public and heinous murders then the Johnson's deniability is in serious jepardy. Runners have a reputation for violence but living up to that reputaton can bring some serious heat down onto them.


The best paying runs will be those that require subtlety and discretion.
Runners who simply slaughter anything and everything and cause excessive property damage are, at best, going to get a few thousand nuyen for killing some Barrans gangers who are muscling in on Yakuza or Mafia turf.

As I said before eyewitnesses are far less important in an age where there are cameras around every respectable corner. Eyewitnesses are unreliable. They are just as likely to pick out some random person who happens to look like you as they are to actually identify you. Racism helps, as well. How many humans do you think can actually tell the difference between two Orks?

Cameras, fingerprints, and DNA; these are the things that runners have to worry about the most.

That being said, it is possible that the runners could be hired by anti-Azltan terrorists. To most people, blowing up pyramids and beheading blood mages on international trid is a good thing to do.
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scoundrel
post May 16 2005, 03:10 AM
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One thing to consider is that cameras can be defeated by a good decker or rigger, or even by simply stealing the security tape, whereas it'll be difficult at best to defeat an eyewitness without killing him.

Also, depending on the premise of the run, masks are not always an available option.
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Ed Simons
post May 16 2005, 03:28 AM
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QUOTE (toturi)
They kill because that's good PR. If you have a reputation for violence, then who would resist you? If you have a reputation for violence that cows even the corps and sec forces, who wouldn't hire you?

No runner could possibly have a reputation for violence strong enough to cow the corporations.

But if by some miracle you've achieved the thousands of Karma neccessary to be a credible threat to any of the corps' survival, the different corps will most likely put their differences aside and destroy you.
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post May 16 2005, 03:39 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
That being said, it is possible that the runners could be hired by anti-Azltan terrorists. To most people, blowing up pyramids and beheading blood mages on international trid is a good thing to do.

Way to take the high road there, sport.

That's as assinine as the RL example.
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