Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Security Guards.... just a job or a Profession?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Gambitt
Looked a while at the myth of a modern shadowrunner post... and as far as a security guards job i just dont get it.
In SR, lets face it, its a dangerous place. There are some seriously frightning people out there, not just in terms of skills and contacts, but also in terms of killing power.
Really dont understand the moral point of view that someones just a security guard supporting his family by picking up a pay check.... its utter rubbish. If u want a safe job dont take one where you dont have a gun, and are expected to fight off anyone who breaks the Corps rules.
I remember taking a lot of moral highground crap for firing normal rounds instead of gel on a run. Now im not a psycho, but the guard could easily of identified me, so i killed him. Now i admit shooting to kill isnt nice, killing the provider of a family isnt nice either. BUT saying a security guard is just a job like any other, without any consequences is wrong in my opinion.
Smiley
I agree. To paraphrase, "If it's a choice between him or me, there is no choice."
Kagetenshi
You pays your money and you takes your chances.

~J
Adam
QUOTE (Gambitt)
I remember taking a lot of moral highground crap for firing normal rounds instead of gel on a run. Now im not a psycho, but the guard could easily of identified me, so i killed him.

Seeing as these boards aren't In Character, for clarity's sake, you should probably not refer to your characters as "I". wink.gif
Kagetenshi
Maybe he's not speaking of a character? wink.gif

~J
hyzmarca
There are many different types of security guards. There is the highly professional and will geek your hoop if you're not carefullful AAA paramilitary security. There is also the 70 year old Barney Fife wannabe who the some tiny D corphired to apease its insurance company. And, of course, everything in between.
Different classes of security guard should be treated differently.

As far as being able to ID you, that isn't a good reason to kill because of a little something called cameras. If the security guard saw you then security cameras have seen you unless you have a Improved Invisibility spell and the guard just got lucky or your teams decker has turned them off. The later isn't a guarentee because the complex may have independant cameras as backups, there could be a second host, or the guard could have eyecams and headware or external memory that can be recovered.

The best way to avoid being identified is to wear a mask. For that matter, wear gloves. Fingerprints are much more likely to haunt you than a visual identification will.
DNA is the worst. If the investigation team finds just a few skin cells there is little you can do about it. Gene therapy is possible but expensive.

That being said, if the guard is shooting at you you shoot back.

For non-lethal take-downs a combonation of DMSO, gamma scopolamine, hyper, and LAES works wonders.
hermit
Overall, in Shadowrun, sec guards kinda are in a position like Iraqi cops are. That is, not a very pleasant one. They're whom the powers-that-be have chosen to stem the tide of scum to not have to do it themselves, so their asses aren't in danger (because they pay you to put yours on the line).

They aren't really convinced of their masters and commanders being good, or even just on their side. They are aware that they're up against some seriously powerful and totally ruthless enemies (let's face it, in terms of ethics, most shadowrunners are on par, or even below, Iraqi insurgents; and that doesn't even take into account gangs and other scum). What's more, they're pretty certain their masters would sacrifice them without any hesistation to further the company's goals or increase profit by an iota.

But the economical situation isn't really terrific to put it mildly - massive unemployment (I count the SINless as unemployed - with SINners, it's about 10%, ir I recall correctly, in the UCAS; but about 10% of the total American population, if not more, aren't even SINned), rampant poverty, vast parts of every major city are lawless areas run by hoodlum and gangs and crime lords.

So, jobs are rare. Jobs where you are hired without decent education are even scarcer. Sec guards might be one of these jobs (strong turnover, and really, a grunt needn't know to write or do math). Furthermore, it isn't only paid decently; if you stay on the job through your enlistment, you get corporate citizenship - and with that, access to secure living environments, and even opportunities for better jobs!

Hence, there should be a lot of interest in that job, despite the dangers it poses (and the knowledge that, until you actually get citizenship, you're cannon fodder).

How loyal are such people? I'd expect them to not be too loyal, actually. If you join the sec guard force of some corporation because you need to support your family, dying isn't really high on your list of things you want - you don't live only for yourself, but have others dependent on your earings. Maybe not only your wife and kids, but also your brother's family, back in the barrens, and your elderly parents, depend on your one income? Seriously, you cannot afford to die.

Nonetheless, running like a dog at first sight of a punk won't really get you any closer to that corporate citizenship you really want to have so that you and your next of kin can live a bit less insecure than they do now.

So, what does that say about secguard morale? It will vary. Some guards will stand their ground in face of an enemy, so long as they seem to have the upper hand. Some will bolt as soon as they seem to be on the losing side (noone wants to fight to the last breath to protect some Shiawase toy storage facility). Hardly any will fight to the death - like all ordinary enemies mof shadowrunners should.
Gambitt
QUOTE (Adam)
QUOTE (Gambitt)
I remember taking a lot of moral highground crap for firing normal rounds instead of gel on a run. Now im not a psycho, but the guard could easily of identified me, so i killed him.

Seeing as these boards aren't In Character, for clarity's sake, you should probably not refer to your characters as "I". wink.gif

Sorry Adam, my bad call there.

QUOTE ( hyzmarca)
That being said, if the guard is shooting at you you shoot back.

For non-lethal take-downs a combonation of DMSO, gamma scopolamine, hyper, and LAES works wonders.


My chars will certainly be looking into these options more providing they are available in SR4 (played SR3 for 5 years or so, but waiting a few weeks before we get the new one and try that out)

QUOTE (hermit)
They aren't really convinced of their masters and commanders being good, or even just on their side. They are aware that they're up against some seriously powerful and totally ruthless enemies (let's face it, in terms of ethics, most shadowrunners are on par, or even below, Iraqi insurgents; and that doesn't even take into account gangs and other scum). What's more, they're pretty certain their masters would sacrifice them without any hesistation to further the company's goals or increase profit by an iota.

But the economical situation isn't really terrific to put it mildly - massive unemployment (I count the SINless as unemployed - with SINners, it's about 10%, ir I recall correctly, in the UCAS; but about 10% of the total American population, if not more, aren't even SINned), rampant poverty, vast parts of every major city are lawless areas run by hoodlum and gangs and crime lords.


Depends how its GMed, if someone has a gun pushed in their face, then the sami has a valid reason to retailiate. If they play the part of "im sorry im just here to feed my relations and kids.. here take the master keys to the building" then thats different.
Suppose the point is, i find it hard to believe that they can act one way, ie. point a gun at someone(or shoot them), and claim its just a job they need to feed the family, whilst at the same time not expect a runner to deal with them as its morally wrong (more to the point have the other players/GM view your character as being in the wrong)
hermit
QUOTE
Depends how its GMed, if someone has a gun pushed in their face, then the sami has a valid reason to retailiate. If they play the part of "im sorry im just here to feed my relations and kids.. here take the master keys to the building" then thats different.

How they act when facing an enemy (ganger/shadowrunner/trespassing bum) depends on whether the guard has the upper hand (i.e. they have a gun and the enemy doesn't, he has more friends with him than the runner has, he is high on Kamikaze).

QUOTE
Suppose the point is, i find it hard to believe that they can act one way, ie. point a gun at someone(or shoot them), and claim its just a job they need to feed the family, whilst at the same time not expect a runner to deal with them as its morally wrong (more to the point have the other players/GM view your character as being in the wrong)

Why is that so hard to believe? He will of course act in a different way depending on whether he is in a superior position (see above) or is staring down the Troll Sammy's Vindicator's business end.

I don't really get the morality point though. Again, please imagine shadowrunners to have the image of (and often, act every bit as savage) as Iraqi resistance fighters. You know, killing hosts of innocents, murdering hostages, ect. Don't tell me your group hasn't ever done such things!
Besides, what wopuld a captured soldier tell his captors, after he gunned down two or more of their platoon? How he hates them and wants to see them choked with thier own guts? Or maybe beg for mercy and hope he won't be shot on the spot?
Crimsondude 2.0
And here I was always under the impression that killing hosts of innocents and hostages was a sign of unprofessionalism, or at the very least stupidity.
Critias
QUOTE (hermit)
Again, please imagine shadowrunners to have the image of (and often, act every bit as savage) as Iraqi resistance fighters. You know, killing hosts of innocents, murdering hostages, ect.

Uhm...what?

There's a world of difference between "Iraqi Resistance Fighters" and "Bank Robbers." Shadowrunners tend to fall somewhere in between (quite a few people claim to aspire towards the Heat or Ronin crowds, for instance). I guess, depending on the campaign, you could reach a level where you're in a very specialized game setting and are in the middle of something where hacking off a live man's head with a machete and recording it are reasonable methods of handling something somehow related to Shadowrunners -- but I doubt it (and even so, it's then such a specialized and off-the-beaten-path game that it doesn't matter to what we're all talking about).

Shadowrunner's are professional criminals. Pro's don't kill people for no reason (especially not "hosts of innocents"). They don't often take hostages in the first place, and when they do they certainly don't kill them (a dead hostage is a thrown away bargaining chip). They don't go on murdering sprees, they remove obstacles from their path.

Every death must serve a purpose, to someone who wants to last any length of time (in body or soul). It has to remove a vital link from an enemy chain. It has to secure a paycheck. It has to protect a secret. It was to nullify a threat. You don't kill for killing's sake. They kill when they have to.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Critias)
There's a world of difference between "Iraqi Resistance Fighters" and "Bank Robbers."  Shadowrunners tend to fall somewhere in between (quite a few people claim to aspire towards the Heat or Ronin crowds, for instance).

And by "quite a few" you mean "we few lunatics," apparently. Although Ronin is not my personal idea of how runners should behave since they take out bystanders on three separate occassions (two within one scene).

QUOTE
They kill when they have to.

Indeed, just like in Heat. Like Hanna said, "Once they killed the first two guards, they didn't hesitate. Kill guard number three, because, what difference does it make? Why leave a living witness." They were pros who knew the law, and as far as the law was concerned the second the first guard got popped they were all facing the death penalty for felony-murder. At that point, they had absolutely no logical reason not to kill the other two guards, and a very good reason to do so.

Same with the big shootout. Once bullet started flying, every life in their way was expendable because, "what difference did it make?" None. That's why I think Gingerbread Man's description of a run gone bad in Denver is full of shit. Once the job got blown, their goal was to leave as quickly as humanly possible and to Hell with the lives of anyone in your way. It's not like extraterritorial corps will extend you the courtesy if you get caught unless you're really good or really lucky. And by "extend you the courtesy" I mean that you may as well expect that in return you're going to be sent on a suicide mission. In the end, the result's the same.
hermit
Critas, that describes the ideal shadowrunner group I haven't yet seen in a single gaming group, ever. At best, there always was a renegade killer player. Even though my current group is quite close to that, I must say that most gaming groups I know play shadowrun to blow things up and kill people.

And I wasn't talking about their conduct, I was talking about the *image* they get. I don't believe every last Iraqi insurgent is a head-cutting religious nutjob foreigner either (though Western media really try to make that point). Most are Baathist soldiers who have one or another grudge against the new government. Most don't kill just for killing's sake, and since most actually plan to live in the place where they operate (and propably depend on the locals' support o continue operating), I wouldn't think they all go and blow up Iraqis at every instance they can.

Yet, they're painted as those nutjob killers who send out tapes where they lob off heads. I'd expect the same with shadowrunners. All it takes is one psycho troll with a laser axe.

And who hasn't seen one of these in his games?
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hermit @ May 15 2005, 05:47 PM)
Critas, that describes the ideal shadowrunner group I haven't yet seen in a single gaming group, ever. At best, there always was a renegade killer player. Even though my current group is quite close to that, I must say that most gaming groups I know play shadowrun to blow things up and kill people.

Then you know some dipshit teams.
TenTonHammer
QUOTE (hermit)

I don't believe every last Iraqi insurgent is a head-cutting religious nutjob foreigner either (though Western media really try to make that point). Most are Baathist soldiers who have one or another grudge against the new government. Most don't kill just for killing's sake, and since most actually plan to live in the place where they operate (and propably depend on the locals' support o continue operating), I wouldn't think they all go and blow up Iraqis at every instance they can.

Yet, they're painted as those nutjob killers who send out tapes where they lob off heads.

So where in Iraqi are you living? Ive been there once, and im standing up to go again.

Well you may be right. Why kill the people that you rape and steal from on a daily basis?

Oh and Ill make sure to ask the unarmed civilians they DO shoot at for the sake of trying to flush out their evil asses. If we portray the Terrorists wrong.

If you get the chance to go over there speak with some Iraqis, they love us being there. We give them running water, sewer systems, power. Things they haven't had in a very long time. Why fight that? For the simple reason because most ARE religous Zealots, thinking they will lose thier culture and their religion because we are there.
Kagetenshi
<Redacted>

~J
toturi
QUOTE (Critias)
Every death must serve a purpose, to someone who wants to last any length of time (in body or soul). It has to remove a vital link from an enemy chain. It has to secure a paycheck. It has to protect a secret. It was to nullify a threat. You don't kill for killing's sake. They kill when they have to.

They kill because that's good PR. If you have a reputation for violence, then who would resist you? If you have a reputation for violence that cows even the corps and sec forces, who wouldn't hire you?
scoundrel
Frankly, I think it's a bit silly to view a reputation for violence as a good thing in a world where firearms are the weapons of choice.
Kagetenshi
Why?

~J
Smiley
In a profession where violence is a prerequisite, a reputation for actually doing the required violence and not wussing out is more beneficial than hesitating when someone needs neutralizing.
scoundrel
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Why?

~J

Because no corporation would actually get "cowed" regardless of how trigger happy you are. There's no point in killing more people than necessary just to let people know that you're a violent guy.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (TenTonHammer)
QUOTE (hermit)

I don't believe every last Iraqi insurgent is a head-cutting religious nutjob foreigner either (though Western media really try to make that point). Most are Baathist soldiers who have one or another grudge against the new government. Most don't kill just for killing's sake, and since most actually plan to live in the place where they operate (and propably depend on the locals' support o continue operating), I wouldn't think they all go and blow up Iraqis at every instance they can.

Yet, they're painted as those nutjob killers who send out tapes where they lob off heads.

So where in Iraqi are you living? Ive been there once, and im standing up to go again.

Well you may be right. Why kill the people that you rape and steal from on a daily basis?

Oh and Ill make sure to ask the unarmed civilians they DO shoot at for the sake of trying to flush out their evil asses. If we portray the Terrorists wrong.

If you get the chance to go over there speak with some Iraqis, they love us being there. We give them running water, sewer systems, power. Things they haven't had in a very long time. Why fight that? For the simple reason because most ARE religous Zealots, thinking they will lose thier culture and their religion because we are there.

I've just playing Devil's Advocate here but they did have power and running water before some country (I'm no tgoing to mention any names) invaded them and destroyed all of that.

Compare it to this hypothetical and somewhat improbable situation. Insted of the Soviet Union collapsing at the end of the Cold War hardliners win out and stage a suprise attack against the United States. The primary attack is a massive series of high-altitude EMP detonations that destroys most electronic circuts in the country and annhilates the US civil and military infrastructure in one fell swoop. Afterwards it is simple for Soviet ground troops to come in and occuply the US.

Now, the first things the Soviet Union do are begin restoring the ruined infrastructure and installing a Democratic government to replace the deposed Capitolist Oligarcy.
They're giving the US running water and electricity and most people are very happy with that. After all, the government doesn't matter as long as people can go about their daily lives. However, there will be some economic and patriotic zellots who either believe that all nations should be rulled by capitolist governments or who simply want independance from occupation no matter the cost.


A reputation for excessive violance isn't necessarilary good for a shadowrunner's career. Excessive violence is easily noticed and people want justice when deahs occur. Shadowrunners are hired for deniability. When major governments are pressured by their constitutiants to investigate very public and heinous murders then the Johnson's deniability is in serious jepardy. Runners have a reputation for violence but living up to that reputaton can bring some serious heat down onto them.


The best paying runs will be those that require subtlety and discretion.
Runners who simply slaughter anything and everything and cause excessive property damage are, at best, going to get a few thousand nuyen for killing some Barrans gangers who are muscling in on Yakuza or Mafia turf.

As I said before eyewitnesses are far less important in an age where there are cameras around every respectable corner. Eyewitnesses are unreliable. They are just as likely to pick out some random person who happens to look like you as they are to actually identify you. Racism helps, as well. How many humans do you think can actually tell the difference between two Orks?

Cameras, fingerprints, and DNA; these are the things that runners have to worry about the most.

That being said, it is possible that the runners could be hired by anti-Azltan terrorists. To most people, blowing up pyramids and beheading blood mages on international trid is a good thing to do.
scoundrel
One thing to consider is that cameras can be defeated by a good decker or rigger, or even by simply stealing the security tape, whereas it'll be difficult at best to defeat an eyewitness without killing him.

Also, depending on the premise of the run, masks are not always an available option.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (toturi)
They kill because that's good PR. If you have a reputation for violence, then who would resist you? If you have a reputation for violence that cows even the corps and sec forces, who wouldn't hire you?

No runner could possibly have a reputation for violence strong enough to cow the corporations.

But if by some miracle you've achieved the thousands of Karma neccessary to be a credible threat to any of the corps' survival, the different corps will most likely put their differences aside and destroy you.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
That being said, it is possible that the runners could be hired by anti-Azltan terrorists. To most people, blowing up pyramids and beheading blood mages on international trid is a good thing to do.

Way to take the high road there, sport.

That's as assinine as the RL example.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (scoundrel)
One thing to consider is that cameras can be defeated by a good decker or rigger, or even by simply stealing the security tape, whereas it'll be difficult at best to defeat an eyewitness without killing him.

Also, depending on the premise of the run, masks are not always an available option.

Well, presuming you have both a decker and a rigger and that all on-site cameras are accessible to them, and they defeat any defending deckers or riggers, then you are correct.

As to grabbing the security tapes, do you even know where they are? If not, can you afford to spend the time looking for them?

As to witnesses, even if you don't wear a mask or facepaint or make any other effort to conceal your identity, they can be expected to usually get your gender and metahumanity right. Some probably could ID you out of a police lineup, but that's only a problem if you get caught.

This, of course, presumes the runner team are reasonably normal looking meta/humans. If your team consists of a gnome, a giant, a minotaur, and a human with distinctive looks, you're toast if any person or camera gets a vague look at the team.
toturi
By the time you can be a credible threat, you can use that fear to drive/keep them apart.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (scoundrel @ May 15 2005, 09:43 PM)
Because no corporation would actually get "cowed" regardless of how trigger happy you are. There's no point in killing more people than necessary just to let people know that you're a violent guy.

Firstly, I disagree. Not every corporation is massive, not every manager is secure in the corporate blanket, not every organization is prepared for the consequences of life in the Sixth World (and not every run is against a corp). Secondly, even if you are correct, what does firearms have to do with that?

~J
scoundrel
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Firstly, I disagree. Not every corporation is massive, not every manager is secure in the corporate blanket, not every organization is prepared for the consequences of life in the Sixth World (and not every run is against a corp).

Whether the corporation is small or large is immaterial - once they've reached the point where they can dub themself a corporation, they're not going to surrender their assets without a fight.

If the corp is willing to fight you, it wouldn't matter how many people you've killed in the past, they're going to do it anyway. Usually because the on site security guard(s) wouldn't even have any idea about your street rep, especially if you're going in disguised.

QUOTE
Secondly, even if you are correct, what does firearms have to do with that?

The mention of firearms was primarily to illustrate that regardless of how violent you are, all it requires is a single bullet in the right spot to take you down. Which is why it's insane to assume that you can ever reach a level of power where you can take on your standard corporation and actually defeat everything they throw at you. It just doesn't happen.

You seem to think that a reputation for violence would actually be beneficial. Why?

QUOTE (Ed Simons)
Well, presuming you have both a decker and a rigger and that all on-site cameras are accessible to them, and they defeat any defending deckers or riggers, then you are correct.

As to grabbing the security tapes, do you even know where they are? If not, can you afford to spend the time looking for them?

Meh, you completely missed my point. I wasn't saying that you're guaranteed to defeat all cameras, and thus killing eyewitnesses is the smart thing to do. I was saying that cameras can be defeated, and that it's foolish to assume that since you're going to get caught on tape anyway, you should just let all everyone who can ID you go free.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (scoundrel @ May 15 2005, 10:48 PM)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Firstly, I disagree. Not every corporation is massive, not every manager is secure in the corporate blanket, not every organization is prepared for the consequences of life in the Sixth World (and not every run is against a corp).

Whether the corporation is small or large is immaterial - once they've reached the point where they can dub themself a corporation, they're not going to surrender their assets without a fight.

Heh.

One could incorporate a corporation in Delaware in about 15 minutes. The only requirement generally tends to involve filling out paperwork.

And, in fact, they might be willing to surrender their assets if its in the best interests of the shareholder(s) to do so. Over-insure the assets, and you may come out ahead.

Unless, of course, you mean megacorporations.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 15 2005, 09:00 PM)
That being said, it is possible that the runners could be hired by anti-Azltan terrorists.  To most people, blowing up pyramids and beheading blood mages on international trid is a good thing to do.

Way to take the high road there, sport.

That's as assinine as the RL example.

I wasn't trying to take the moral highground. I was simply suggesting that the average UCAS citizen would be sympethetic to such action.

The source material treats corrupt magicians as sub-human maniacs. Imagine what the average higly prejudiced SR character things of them. It isn't much of a secret that Aztechnology employs a startling number of blood mages or that they're working some bad mojo down in Aztlan. Most runners would have fewer moral quams about attacking Aztechnology and their blood mages than they would killing joe security guard.

The idea of mass murderers getting their just deserts in a particulary brutal manner is appealing to most person's sense on justice. When news reaches home most Seatlites would consider such runners to be heroes if they care at all. The exception would be those who have family that work at Aztechnology or those who are corrupt mages.

Most runners would have qualms about almost certain death at the hands of Aztechnology, but they face death every day. If the plan is good, the escape route is air-tight, and the pay is exceptional there are many who will do it. There are probably a few who would simply do it out of idealism, as well.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 16 2005, 12:01 AM)
It isn't much of a secret that Aztechnology employs a startling number of blood mages or that they're working some bad mojo down in Aztlan.

Yes, it is. It isn't a secret amongst Shadowrunnersóno, I take that back. It isn't a secret amongst Shadowlands posters, who by all appearances are a very small and select groupójust look at how little talk there is on each article in a sourcebookó, and I bet you'd hear a lot of cheering there, but there's a reason why Corporate Download lists Aztechnology's PR as the finest in the world.

~J
scoundrel
QUOTE
Heh.

One could incorporate a corporation in Delaware in about 15 minutes. The only requirement generally tends to involve filling out paperwork.

And, in fact, they might be willing to surrender their assets if its in the best interests of the shareholder(s) to do so. Over-insure the assets, and you may come out ahead.

Unless, of course, you mean megacorporations.

When I said corporation, I meant corporations that are worth sending a runner team against. smile.gif

Counter-ninja edit!
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ May 15 2005, 10:39 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 15 2005, 09:00 PM)
That being said, it is possible that the runners could be hired by anti-Azltan terrorists.  To most people, blowing up pyramids and beheading blood mages on international trid is a good thing to do.

Way to take the high road there, sport.

That's as assinine as the RL example.

I wasn't trying to take the moral highground. I was simply suggesting that the average UCAS citizen would be sympethetic to such action.

How so?

The SR public is stupid (I know, it's a stretch). In their minds, Aztechnology is not the evil, bloodthirsty caricature that it is depicted as, or is depicted as being perceived by runners in SR to be. To assume that UCASers would elicit such response is to assume that they would be as happy to see a pyramid get blown up as they would to see some other country they're indifferent to suffer a catastrophic terrorist attack.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (scoundrel)
When I said corporation, I meant corporations that are worth sending a runner team against.

*Thumbs up* Congratulations, you've just ignored the many reasons why even a single private individual can be worth sending a runner team against.

~J
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (scoundrel)
When I said corporation, I meant corporations that are worth sending a runner team against. smile.gif

Counter-ninja edit!

Again, it's a relative term. Who's to say some one-man corp isn't worth hitting? Moreover, a dozen small corps all owned by one person.

Get used to the ninja edits, BTW.
scoundrel
QUOTE
*Thumbs up* Congratulations, you've just ignored the many reasons why even a single private individual can be worth sending a runner team against.

Perhaps like how you ignored the fact that I never mentioned anything about numbers? Even a single private individual can put up a fight. If you want something from someone who's just going to let you take it, why would you shell out thousands of dollars to hire someone to take it for you?
toturi
There are corporations that are worth sending a runner team against but still can be cowed by a reputation for extreme violence.

You might have something I want and that you want to keep, but I have a reputation of killing everyone who crosses me. Then it comes down to which do you value more.

The same principle applies because people run those corps and most people tend to value their lives more than money.
scoundrel
Toturi: How would they know about your reputation for violence though? Generally speaking, Billy Bob the security guard wouldn't have the faintest idea who's who in the shadow community. And even if you assume that somehow he does, he'll have to see your face to recognize you, and if that happens, you'll have to kill him anyway.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (scoundrel)
Toturi: How would they know about your reputation for violence though? Generally speaking, Billy Bob the security guard wouldn't have the faintest idea who's who in the shadow community. And even if you assume that somehow he does, he'll have to see your face to recognize you, and if that happens, you'll have to kill him anyway.

Al Capone, Machine Gun Kelly, Bonnie and Clyde It is possible to have a reputation so great that everyone knows your name. Unfortunatly, when you have such a reputation everyone looking to make a name for himself will try to do it by killing you.
scoundrel
If I was doing security work in Potato Corp and Al Capone came up to me in a face mask making demands, I still wouldn't have any idea who the hell he is.
Kagetenshi
What if there's a team of criminals going around and slaughtering guards? If you're being held up, regardless of whether or not it's actually that team, ten gets you one you're going to be wondering if it might be.

~J
toturi
QUOTE (scoundrel)
Toturi: How would they know about your reputation for violence though? Generally speaking, Billy Bob the security guard wouldn't have the faintest idea who's who in the shadow community. And even if you assume that somehow he does, he'll have to see your face to recognize you, and if that happens, you'll have to kill him anyway.

Ahhh... read Mr Johnson's Little Black Book. He does not need to recognise you... he just need to recognise for who you are. You are the Phantom, you wear a cheesy cape with a silly white mask. But you are actually John Doe Citizen. Phantom(not John Doe) has a Reputation for extreme violence. You want to take the chance that this guy is copy cat?
BitBasher
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 16 2005, 12:01 AM)
It isn't much of a secret that Aztechnology employs a startling number of blood mages or that they're working some bad mojo down in Aztlan.

Yes, it is. It isn't a secret amongst Shadowrunnersóno, I take that back. It isn't a secret amongst Shadowlands posters, who by all appearances are a very small and select groupójust look at how little talk there is on each article in a sourcebookó, and I bet you'd hear a lot of cheering there, but there's a reason why Corporate Download lists Aztechnology's PR as the finest in the world.

~J

Kagetenshi is right, Aztechnology has the best reputation of all the megas in the world as far as the populace is concerned.. it's a 9. The world thinks aztech is fantastic. Shadowrunner's don't.

QUOTE
Al Capone, Machine Gun Kelly, Bonnie and Clyde It is possible to have a reputation so great that everyone knows your name. Unfortunatly, when you have such a reputation everyone looking to make a name for himself will try to do it by killing you.
That doesnt change the fact that to the guy in the corp sec outfit you're just the guy shooting at him. Do you yell put your name or wear a power rangers outfit to make sure they may recognize you and fear your reputation??
scoundrel
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
What if there's a team of criminals going around and slaughtering guards? If you're being held up, regardless of whether or not it's actually that team, ten gets you one you're going to be wondering if it might be.

If I get held up by a team of criminals, I'll either give them what they want or try to escape regardless of whether or not there are a bunch of people going around slaughtering guards.

Besides, the way I see it, extreme violence is already so common in the Sixth World that there would be no indirect benefits to be gained by becoming extremely violent yourself.

QUOTE (toturi)
Ahhh... read Mr Johnson's Little Black Book. He does not need to recognise you... he just need to recognise for who you are. You are the Phantom, you wear a cheesy cape with a silly white mask. But you are actually John Doe Citizen. Phantom(not John Doe) has a Reputation for extreme violence. You want to take the chance that this guy is copy cat?

silly.gif

If you're running around with a cheesy cape and a silly white mask, you have bigger problems to worry about than whether or not people are afraid of you. nyahnyah.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
Al Capone, Machine Gun Kelly, Bonnie and Clyde It is possible to have a reputation so great that everyone knows your name. Unfortunatly, when you have such a reputation everyone looking to make a name for himself will try to do it by killing you.
That doesnt change the fact that to the guy in the corp sec outfit you're just the guy shooting at him. Do you yell put your name or wear a power rangers outfit to make sure they may recognize you and fear your reputation??

Vindictive + Compulsive + distinctive style + rigged giant dragon robot = Evil Green Ranger
CanvasBack
Here's the way I look at.

Once the body count of "civilians*" your team has left behind approach double digits, a task force will be put into place to hunt you and your team down. And you probably won't escape and will either be captured by the gummit and go directly to jail or caught by a corp and end up being disposed of in a 50 gallon drum of toxic waste. Governments and Corps like to believe they have a monopoly on coercion. People that seek to disprove that belief are quickly squashed.

* Civilians: Definitions vary, basically a non-combatant. Remember, they will try to chalk up all civilian casualties caught in the cross-fire to your team.


And my simple request is that the politcal rhetoric get taken to another forum please. nyahnyah.gif
frostPDP
Poli-rhetoric is fun!

...If I can spell rhetoric.

Anyhow, you have to keep a few things in mind when discussing Joe Shadowrunner VRS Megacorp.

1: Regardless of circumstances, you have limited resources. So do they. Too bad they're at the upper limit of limited, and you have maybe a box of ammo in your warehouse when they make the 200-man, Agent-Smith-Style attack. When your gun goes "click" and you don't have a clip, you get dropped like a drip.

2: Presuming that somehow you can eliminate all of the normal megacorp guards, you have their elites. In game terms, the Seraphim must have at least 200 Karma each. Novatech's Black Alpha group are all grade 5 initiates (Corporate Download, might have the wrong division of the Black group), which means somewhere over the 50-Karma rainbow, and probably higher. Also, keep in mind that you aren't the only shadowrunner or team alive, and for all you know you'll have the Chromed Accountant knocking on your door. Bet he's got some pretty Betaware.

3: There's nothing that a few Citymasters can't take care of with aerial support. At least, so far as I can see, because en-mass rocket barrages just don't make one's day.

4: Lets assume you somehow survive the never-ending, Six-Wanted-Star style pursuit. You get to your Panther Assault Cannon and pop a few tanks, then switch to rocket launchers. The military gets called in. There is not much defense against a 2060 cruise missile. It might be the cost-equivalent of 500,000 nuyen...But if you're THAT much of a threat? You've had to have cost at least millions in property damage.

Suffice to say, it all begins with the runner team. With a few riggers, street-sams, adepts and mages, well you could make a decent stand against a corp force if you have the financial backing. But in the end that allmighty hammer of force-escalation beats you. As you raise the amount of force you use, throwing more and more pounds of C-XII, they increase their commitment. First its just a helpcopter. Then two. Then six.

The best part is that the corps produce this stuff for sale, so choosing not to sell it isn't a great loss. Most of this stuff can be rigged, so before long you have an army of drones after you. Then the entire building you're in, be it the Novatech building or any other, is hit.

'Less you somehow team with Deus and make an assault on civilization from the Arc. Then tactical nukes are the next force-escalation level. But it'll happen, the UCAS has already shown its willingness to "contain" threats in Chicago. An out of control AI is a threat.
toturi
You could say Ghostwalker was a threat, but did Denver look nuked to you?

What makes you think that a very high powered team cannot negotiate a compromise?
frostPDP
Ghostwalker was still subject to the force-escalation process. Oh, and his coming was probably known in at least two governments (Nadja Daviar, for instance, had to have known) thus he was somewhat controlled. Not to mention that his damage was isolated.

For a runner to attract the kind of super-severe attention necessary to obtain a nuclear strike, you'd need something on level of the Insect Spirit threat. Unfortunately, an army of those bumblebees seems like that kind of threat. You would have to kill hostages after promising to free them to prove how big a threat you are, thus nobody in their right mind will trust you.

Example: In 9/11 the only plane which had a passenger revolt was one which knew what the others were used for. Up until impact, the passengers probably thought they were going to get out of the crisis alive. If terrorists took control of planes today, you bet they'd charge the cockpit immediately. The room for negotiaton = 0.

The nuclear escalation is the absolute last resort. For most cases, a cruise missile will do the job jusssttt fine. It might cost a city block, but hey...Naval damage codes suck to try to resist. The entirety of Seattle would have to be in danger to have another cermak, so please recall that it would literally take Deus launching a massive invasion with resources he probably doesn't have.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012