If you scope a well-trained team of "robbers" using advanced-looking (Not even necessarily decent) skills and your only armaments are a nightsick and mace, you're not the brightest cookie to go in alone. Especially since at least one of them is bound to -look- really, really big and really, really cybered-up. Or trollish. With TV shows like Desert Wars on, I'm sure people should have the below-median IQ required to NOT go in with a club.

Now, when a corp puts you in full security armor with an assault rifle, you should at least anticipate you could die. This doesn't necessarily justify it, but at least you have the idea in your head that "Yeah, maybe I should save some money for Boosted 1. Just in case I really, really need it."

Still, depending on personal taste and situational ethics it can be hard to rationalize the need for murder. Sure, popping security guards happens. No sane Shadowrunner can figure it wouldn't. But if the dummy isn't shooting at you, instead choosing to brandish a nightstick and charge while your Improved Reflexes 3 kicks in, letting you see him in near-bullet-time, you could afford the little time it takes to pop in a gel clip. If worst comes to worst, the court will see that you had some humanity and not give you the death sentence.

BTW I just got woken up by a not-very-brilliant group of people asking to know which house in the vicinity was "the Spanish family." I might not make sense at the moment. Goodnight!

I always tend to differentiate (for the purposes of how my characters deal with them - to some it makes a difference, to others it doesn't) between security guards whose job is the same as that of most guards today - look out for suspicious characters, check IDs, protect the property from vandalism, etc., and those who are meant to provide an armed response to threats against the corporate property.

Basically, it comes down to whether shooting intruders is a major part of your job description, and if it is, don't complain if you get shot back at. Not that the intruders are justified in shooting at you, legally or morally speaking, but you knew it was fairly likely at some point when you took the job.

Depends on your conception of "security guard." Security guard at Area 51 - Well, someone might try to break in. Security guard at Area 69, the local restaurant and strip club? Pretty damn high, considering in 2060 its probable they have a metal detector in the door so guns don't get fired. Not to mention that, like I said, you're dumb to charge with a nightstick against people who -look- badass, let alone are or aren't.

Regardless of whose security you're guarding, if shit goes down, you're the one that's going to be expected to deal with it. It's just how it works. Sure, most of the time it'll be minor, assuming anything happens at all. Just depends on how lucky you feel. You do have a really good chance to make it to retirement. It's like betting on red and black. Sooner or later, though, the little roulette marble is going to come up green. Double zero. Everyone loses.

Yeah, but nobody seiously expects the local rent-a-cop to stop armed robbers if he's not given a gun. Best he can do is try to sneak up on them or call the cops. Which is the #1 reason he exists - See if anyone's around and, if they are, hit the PanicButton. Which is why geeking him is pointless - He's so marginal a threat that KOing him is sufficient to achieve the task.

It is more likely that he will make it to that PanicButton if you're using less-lethal measures. Less-lethal is just another way of saying "less effective".

~J

Yeah but there's that whole issue of "necessity" which governs the issues at hand.

You really don't need anything more than to, at most, wrestle them to the ground and pop them once in the head with a gel round. If that doesn't work, pop him again. And again. Until he stops moving. He might die from that, but at least you tried to be "Merciful." Plus he's not likely to get canned if he says he got pinned down by a troll with a cyberarm.

Most runs don't occur in your local record store anyway, so most rent-a-cops don't worry about runners. If you DO rob the local record store and murder the guard because he "might in some miniscule way have been a threat," you've made such a complication out of this robbery that you don't deserve to be called a shadowrunner. In fact, I'd argue that the local 15 year old street punk could do it better.

Most occur where circumstances indicicate a "Security, shoot on sight" sort of mentality. You kill what isn't in your uniform. In those events, you've already pulled the gun.

Its like Anita Blake always says, never pull a weapon unless you are ready to use it.

Here is a minor misconception: If you use gel rounds the court will go easier on you. Sorry to say that you were still using a deadly weapon, one that can kill.

Another misconception: If I don't kill any guards there is no way they can get me for murder. Again, Sorry to say that ANY death that results from your felonious act is going to net you Murder 1. Even it's your buddy who failed his soak test against the the lucky burst from the guard assault rifle.

Another misconception: That the corporation has to fork out 200,000 or so for each capped guard and that they will be coming to you to collct. Any corp worth it's name has insurance policies on their assets, even their secuirty assets. If they pay the family 200,000 be sure that they insured him for 500,000 for a tidy profit. Hell, geek enough guards on a run and you just may end up making the corp a bundle.

Lorth: 1, you'll be on trial for murder as opposed to attempted. You failed. Furthermore, you know how juries can be...OJ is free, ain't he?

2: Yeah, if your buddy is killed you're on the hook for murder. That's fair. The problem is I doubt it's a murder 1 charge. You might know UCAS law, I know I don't, but again you have to wonder if they'll get a murder 1 charge to stick on an accessory to your crime. Especially if you get away because you KOed the guy who was gonna hit the panic button then KOed the guy who capped your pal. The assumption is that you make it out alive and free.

3: The corp'll rake in huge funds, alright. That doesn't mean they'll be all happy about their topsecret paydata research being taken and shipped to Zimbabwe. Actually, it seems to insinuate a determined probability that they'll take their newfound wealth to go after the ones responsible for said theft. I'm sure they'll thank you for giving them the funds to chase you before they blow you away.

Long story short: The local rent a cop from a mini-mall in the area will probably not be armed and a credible threat. If you're knocking off the CD store and a guy flashlights you, there's no need to kill him unless you see a gun. As most shadowrunners will be able to run around in circles before the guard pulls said gun, you have time to discern this.

Its just me...But it just seems unnecessary to do it. Maybe its a moralistic standpoint, maybe...Well, maybe because if you kill the poor jacko, you have to deal with a murder investigation rather than assault with a deadly weapon.

I think everyone's making a fairly common misconception about "security guard," too. We all hear those words and we think mall-ninja. We think "guy who couldn't cut it as a cop, but likes a wonky uniform."

Remember, in Shadowrun, they're all "security guards." Lone Star is security guards. Corporate Security is anyone not specifically employed by a nation (instead of a company), who's got a badge.

When was the last time your GM had that end up being a fat guy with a mag-lite and a donut? I know I've never, once, come across that kind of security guard, during any sort of 'Run.

Which is why I made it a point to differentiate, moreso earlier on in this conversation, that when I think of security guards you kill and those you just beat down the line is drawn between the stereotype and actuality in SR.

Fat donut guy watching the local radio shack gets the KO

Lone Star "Security Guard" (or as we usually default to in my groups, cops) or other corp groups tend to be kill on sight.

Earlier someone used the Movie Heat to discuss capping security guards, and pointed to the execution style killing of the third guard during the armored car robbery, making use of the quote, "what difference did it make?"

I thought two points were salient in that example:

1. The crew also attempts to kill the psychopath who initiated the violence, which led to their finishing off the other two guards. Something to make the bloodlusty PC in every group think twice. Maybe your buddies have finally had enough??

2. in the bank job, they club the security guards, incapacitating them. Non-lethal violence is actually more effective here because its relatively quiet, and because it delays reactions. (one imagines everyone thinking when they see the first guy get hit that its just some nutjob, not a bank robbery.) But when they cops come, (loaded for bear! btw) they open up without a second thought. They are on the defensive in this case, trying to escape. And they go lethal immediately.

Assuming you accept the notion that 1. the criminals in HEAT are professional, and you assume 2. that Shadowrunners are generally professional criminals (a term popular on these forums in this regard I think) that 'runners probably Do make a distinction between doughnut muncher and CorpSec badass. I think it would be a pretty weak team which did not have capability to escalate or de-escalate their level of violence depending on the threat.

I certainly consider capsule rounds to have pathetic Stun damage codes, even worse than gel rounds since those things don't even get the Knockdown Test bonus.

The guard cannot be Stim-patched to come after you 1 round after you put him down.

While it is true that there are more types of armour with lower impact ratings than ballistic ratings, consider that Synth Leather and Real Leather are Always Available. I would consider them to be more widespread than any armour with Availability of 2.

Since when did Heat become THE example of the perfect Shadowrunner? If we're basing our arguments on movies that weren't made with Shadowrun in mind, I submit James Bond. How many inept guards and unfortunate security personnel has he geeked?

I'm not sure if such a business would exist, but if there is a business insuring guards in corporate facilities, they will be catering to said customers' concerns (including the issues you raise). If the industry exists, what you mention will be a nonissue.

~J

Given the whole Desert Wars phenomena and the cybernetic Shadowrunners, I would assume any corporation concerned with it's bottom line would put their guards through a Marines style boot camp and advanced training. Cost more money now, but saves money later.

Exactly. All the more reason to shoot (a lot) first and ask questions (from a safe distance) later.

Freeman - Probably quoting me since I came up with the bogus concept. It would make a -very- interesting story indeed. I plan to take a rather liberal view of the Comet when my gaming group gets to it (if we ever free ourselves from the D&D shackles we've put ourselves into) and there will be a few ancient islands getting corporate attention. And warfare.

Could something like Deus launch an invasion? An interesting proposition - With enough resources, oh yeah. His bumblebees would be pretty good shock troops. "Ahh what was that...AHHH!!!!" death follows soon after. But aside from that, I can predict that eventually he'd lose. To attack, he'd have to open his doors. To do that means to invite rocket launchers. Which would KO the doors and invite bigger, military-grade destruction. All of which leads to a war breaking out, one which might or might not upstage to catastrophe.

Sooo we return to our previous discussion, but since I'm sleepy I'm gonna take a nap.

Doesn't the Draco Foundation have a bounty on both blood mages and toxics?

Anything worth guarding, from shadowrunners, will be guarded by real guards, not Mr. Doughnut and flashlight. If your team has a run-in with a rent a cop that is anything more than passing him in the stuffer shack on their way to their NERPS of choice. You probably outta take a look at your campaign, cause they are either too hard up for cash or too pyschotic to function.

Your mage shoud have the physical mask spell on the whole infiltration team. It's a damn handy spell.

I don't know about ya'll but when I imagine the SR universe I tend to see it more as a Escape from New York or LA type deal than Heat.

After reading SOTA64! it's a profession.