Looked a while at the myth of a modern shadowrunner post... and as far as a security guards job i just dont get it.
In SR, lets face it, its a dangerous place. There are some seriously frightning people out there, not just in terms of skills and contacts, but also in terms of killing power.
Really dont understand the moral point of view that someones just a security guard supporting his family by picking up a pay check.... its utter rubbish. If u want a safe job dont take one where you dont have a gun, and are expected to fight off anyone who breaks the Corps rules.
I remember taking a lot of moral highground crap for firing normal rounds instead of gel on a run. Now im not a psycho, but the guard could easily of identified me, so i killed him. Now i admit shooting to kill isnt nice, killing the provider of a family isnt nice either. BUT saying a security guard is just a job like any other, without any consequences is wrong in my opinion.

I agree. To paraphrase, "If it's a choice between him or me, there is no choice."

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

~J

Maybe he's not speaking of a character?

~J

There are many different types of security guards. There is the highly professional and will geek your hoop if you're not carefullful AAA paramilitary security. There is also the 70 year old Barney Fife wannabe who the some tiny D corphired to apease its insurance company. And, of course, everything in between.
Different classes of security guard should be treated differently.

As far as being able to ID you, that isn't a good reason to kill because of a little something called cameras. If the security guard saw you then security cameras have seen you unless you have a Improved Invisibility spell and the guard just got lucky or your teams decker has turned them off. The later isn't a guarentee because the complex may have independant cameras as backups, there could be a second host, or the guard could have eyecams and headware or external memory that can be recovered.

The best way to avoid being identified is to wear a mask. For that matter, wear gloves. Fingerprints are much more likely to haunt you than a visual identification will.
DNA is the worst. If the investigation team finds just a few skin cells there is little you can do about it. Gene therapy is possible but expensive.

That being said, if the guard is shooting at you you shoot back.

For non-lethal take-downs a combonation of DMSO, gamma scopolamine, hyper, and LAES works wonders.

Overall, in Shadowrun, sec guards kinda are in a position like Iraqi cops are. That is, not a very pleasant one. They're whom the powers-that-be have chosen to stem the tide of scum to not have to do it themselves, so their asses aren't in danger (because they pay you to put yours on the line).

They aren't really convinced of their masters and commanders being good, or even just on their side. They are aware that they're up against some seriously powerful and totally ruthless enemies (let's face it, in terms of ethics, most shadowrunners are on par, or even below, Iraqi insurgents; and that doesn't even take into account gangs and other scum). What's more, they're pretty certain their masters would sacrifice them without any hesistation to further the company's goals or increase profit by an iota.

But the economical situation isn't really terrific to put it mildly - massive unemployment (I count the SINless as unemployed - with SINners, it's about 10%, ir I recall correctly, in the UCAS; but about 10% of the total American population, if not more, aren't even SINned), rampant poverty, vast parts of every major city are lawless areas run by hoodlum and gangs and crime lords.

So, jobs are rare. Jobs where you are hired without decent education are even scarcer. Sec guards might be one of these jobs (strong turnover, and really, a grunt needn't know to write or do math). Furthermore, it isn't only paid decently; if you stay on the job through your enlistment, you get corporate citizenship - and with that, access to secure living environments, and even opportunities for better jobs!

Hence, there should be a lot of interest in that job, despite the dangers it poses (and the knowledge that, until you actually get citizenship, you're cannon fodder).

How loyal are such people? I'd expect them to not be too loyal, actually. If you join the sec guard force of some corporation because you need to support your family, dying isn't really high on your list of things you want - you don't live only for yourself, but have others dependent on your earings. Maybe not only your wife and kids, but also your brother's family, back in the barrens, and your elderly parents, depend on your one income? Seriously, you cannot afford to die.

Nonetheless, running like a dog at first sight of a punk won't really get you any closer to that corporate citizenship you really want to have so that you and your next of kin can live a bit less insecure than they do now.

So, what does that say about secguard morale? It will vary. Some guards will stand their ground in face of an enemy, so long as they seem to have the upper hand. Some will bolt as soon as they seem to be on the losing side (noone wants to fight to the last breath to protect some Shiawase toy storage facility). Hardly any will fight to the death - like all ordinary enemies mof shadowrunners should.

And here I was always under the impression that killing hosts of innocents and hostages was a sign of unprofessionalism, or at the very least stupidity.

Critas, that describes the ideal shadowrunner group I haven't yet seen in a single gaming group, ever. At best, there always was a renegade killer player. Even though my current group is quite close to that, I must say that most gaming groups I know play shadowrun to blow things up and kill people.

And I wasn't talking about their conduct, I was talking about the *image* they get. I don't believe every last Iraqi insurgent is a head-cutting religious nutjob foreigner either (though Western media really try to make that point). Most are Baathist soldiers who have one or another grudge against the new government. Most don't kill just for killing's sake, and since most actually plan to live in the place where they operate (and propably depend on the locals' support o continue operating), I wouldn't think they all go and blow up Iraqis at every instance they can.

Yet, they're painted as those nutjob killers who send out tapes where they lob off heads. I'd expect the same with shadowrunners. All it takes is one psycho troll with a laser axe.

And who hasn't seen one of these in his games?

<Redacted>

~J

Frankly, I think it's a bit silly to view a reputation for violence as a good thing in a world where firearms are the weapons of choice.

Why?

~J

In a profession where violence is a prerequisite, a reputation for actually doing the required violence and not wussing out is more beneficial than hesitating when someone needs neutralizing.

One thing to consider is that cameras can be defeated by a good decker or rigger, or even by simply stealing the security tape, whereas it'll be difficult at best to defeat an eyewitness without killing him.

Also, depending on the premise of the run, masks are not always an available option.

By the time you can be a credible threat, you can use that fear to drive/keep them apart.

There are corporations that are worth sending a runner team against but still can be cowed by a reputation for extreme violence.

You might have something I want and that you want to keep, but I have a reputation of killing everyone who crosses me. Then it comes down to which do you value more.

The same principle applies because people run those corps and most people tend to value their lives more than money.

Toturi: How would they know about your reputation for violence though? Generally speaking, Billy Bob the security guard wouldn't have the faintest idea who's who in the shadow community. And even if you assume that somehow he does, he'll have to see your face to recognize you, and if that happens, you'll have to kill him anyway.

If I was doing security work in Potato Corp and Al Capone came up to me in a face mask making demands, I still wouldn't have any idea who the hell he is.

What if there's a team of criminals going around and slaughtering guards? If you're being held up, regardless of whether or not it's actually that team, ten gets you one you're going to be wondering if it might be.

~J

Here's the way I look at.

Once the body count of "civilians*" your team has left behind approach double digits, a task force will be put into place to hunt you and your team down. And you probably won't escape and will either be captured by the gummit and go directly to jail or caught by a corp and end up being disposed of in a 50 gallon drum of toxic waste. Governments and Corps like to believe they have a monopoly on coercion. People that seek to disprove that belief are quickly squashed.

* Civilians: Definitions vary, basically a non-combatant. Remember, they will try to chalk up all civilian casualties caught in the cross-fire to your team.


And my simple request is that the politcal rhetoric get taken to another forum please.

Poli-rhetoric is fun!

...If I can spell rhetoric.

Anyhow, you have to keep a few things in mind when discussing Joe Shadowrunner VRS Megacorp.

1: Regardless of circumstances, you have limited resources. So do they. Too bad they're at the upper limit of limited, and you have maybe a box of ammo in your warehouse when they make the 200-man, Agent-Smith-Style attack. When your gun goes "click" and you don't have a clip, you get dropped like a drip.

2: Presuming that somehow you can eliminate all of the normal megacorp guards, you have their elites. In game terms, the Seraphim must have at least 200 Karma each. Novatech's Black Alpha group are all grade 5 initiates (Corporate Download, might have the wrong division of the Black group), which means somewhere over the 50-Karma rainbow, and probably higher. Also, keep in mind that you aren't the only shadowrunner or team alive, and for all you know you'll have the Chromed Accountant knocking on your door. Bet he's got some pretty Betaware.

3: There's nothing that a few Citymasters can't take care of with aerial support. At least, so far as I can see, because en-mass rocket barrages just don't make one's day.

4: Lets assume you somehow survive the never-ending, Six-Wanted-Star style pursuit. You get to your Panther Assault Cannon and pop a few tanks, then switch to rocket launchers. The military gets called in. There is not much defense against a 2060 cruise missile. It might be the cost-equivalent of 500,000 nuyen...But if you're THAT much of a threat? You've had to have cost at least millions in property damage.

Suffice to say, it all begins with the runner team. With a few riggers, street-sams, adepts and mages, well you could make a decent stand against a corp force if you have the financial backing. But in the end that allmighty hammer of force-escalation beats you. As you raise the amount of force you use, throwing more and more pounds of C-XII, they increase their commitment. First its just a helpcopter. Then two. Then six.

The best part is that the corps produce this stuff for sale, so choosing not to sell it isn't a great loss. Most of this stuff can be rigged, so before long you have an army of drones after you. Then the entire building you're in, be it the Novatech building or any other, is hit.

'Less you somehow team with Deus and make an assault on civilization from the Arc. Then tactical nukes are the next force-escalation level. But it'll happen, the UCAS has already shown its willingness to "contain" threats in Chicago. An out of control AI is a threat.

You could say Ghostwalker was a threat, but did Denver look nuked to you?

What makes you think that a very high powered team cannot negotiate a compromise?

Ghostwalker was still subject to the force-escalation process. Oh, and his coming was probably known in at least two governments (Nadja Daviar, for instance, had to have known) thus he was somewhat controlled. Not to mention that his damage was isolated.

For a runner to attract the kind of super-severe attention necessary to obtain a nuclear strike, you'd need something on level of the Insect Spirit threat. Unfortunately, an army of those bumblebees seems like that kind of threat. You would have to kill hostages after promising to free them to prove how big a threat you are, thus nobody in their right mind will trust you.

Example: In 9/11 the only plane which had a passenger revolt was one which knew what the others were used for. Up until impact, the passengers probably thought they were going to get out of the crisis alive. If terrorists took control of planes today, you bet they'd charge the cockpit immediately. The room for negotiaton = 0.

The nuclear escalation is the absolute last resort. For most cases, a cruise missile will do the job jusssttt fine. It might cost a city block, but hey...Naval damage codes suck to try to resist. The entirety of Seattle would have to be in danger to have another cermak, so please recall that it would literally take Deus launching a massive invasion with resources he probably doesn't have.