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toturi
Since you are using RL examples, then perhaps allow me to use some myself. Mr Bin Laden is the mastermind of 9/11, he has shown no qualms to use any means to cause massive casualties. Yet even there is no room for negotiation with him, the war on terror is still (surprise!) conventional.

Governments have given in to terrorist demands before (despite the spin they put on it), what makes you think they won't do so again?
frostPDP
Well, as good as your point is there are a few things we need to remember about the current conflict.

1: Bin Laden, despite what you might think, has minimal striking power. He's certainly below the nuclear level, or else there would have either been a bomb found or they would have seen an atomic explosion in a city for the first time since Nagasaki.

2: The U.S. Government, despite what so many love to say, doesn't really care what Al-Queda does. If they did, we wouldn't be allied with nations that are likely to be hiding him - Pakistan, Uzbekistan (which I can't spell), Saudi Arabia and Sudan, to name a few. Its no big deal, yanno?

3: The U.S., despite many of its transgressions (Abu Gharib, sending our P.O.W.'s to aforementioned Uzbekistan to be tortured because we won't do it ourselves, Guantanamo Bay...Again I can't spell, I need to start re-learning spelling words A LA 2nd grade... And such joys of our past such as the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII), is not going to use atomic weaponry in an area where it could possibly lead to heavy civilian casualties.

4: We have no idea where the man is. Unless he's in the white house, in which case Bin Laden isn't gonna be killed until the U.S. Government decides to. In which case Bush needs to go to the pokey for treason, yada yada insert conspiracy theorist mouth-flapping here.

5: IF we did know where he was, we would still be in the force-escalation paradigm, and we aren't up to atomic weaponry yet. The reason why tactical nukes would be employed is because, if I recall correctly (if not, it would never be necessary), the Arc is hardened against such weaponry. I recall reading somewhere that it can even take a tactical nuke's impact.

6: You're absolutely right - The proverbial "Megacorp-defeating runner team" would have to be much more of a threat than Bin Laden to attract that A-Bomb attention. That means, as I said, defeating other threats directly and indirectly. If these runners took down the entire 8th Air Force and the good 'ol Big Red 1, or comparable military units in 2060, then you have to either let them go (losing a war = bad for PR. Losing against six terrorists = political suicide) or upstage.

7: Let's face it, the cyberpunkish world of SR is a little less, umm....Attached than our own. The UCAS is a little more ruthless in its dealings. I don't have precice reports on what tactical nukes today and in 2060 are capable of, but if a group of terrorists are somehow roxoring your land armies and intercepting your cruise missiles from the Pullayap Barrens, near Glow City, I would consider that a little less dangerous to "civilian collateral damage" than a bomb going off in Downtown Seattle.

8: One last note, if the imaginary runner team made an alliance with Deus, a completely impossible theory, and said AI launched an invasion from the Arc, you can damn well bet Seattle will be a ghost town. At least, the area surrounding the Arc will be, which is all that will (hopefully) be effected.

So yeah, you have a point that we haven't gone nuclear, but lets keep in mind that it was in NATO's playbook (probably still is) that if the Warsaw Pact and its Red Army decided to move westward, we'd just fire nukes at them. I'm pretty sure its standing US policy that if a Bio/Chem/Nuke is used against us or our allies, we retaliate in tune with atomic (and probably biological and chemical, because we have our stockpiles of those things too. And provide them to others, according to rumor) strikes.

[Edit-Jutsu for #9!] Before someone points out, with my comparison to Cermak, that it was Ares which detonated the nuke, likely without US support - I suspect that if a runner team is throwing the equivalent of Insect Spirit armies at a megacorp's ultra-elite strike teams, they'll consider tactical nukes as well. Especially if our hypothetical Deus-TeamX alliance is threatening a rampage of all of the Western Hemisphere, something out of Terminator.

But yeah, that's a lot to read. And its 5:05 and I'm an insomniac, so don't mind my foolery smile.gif Its all in good fun! :shades: - Lets hope that works.
hermit
QUOTE
You could say Ghostwalker was a threat, but did Denver look nuked to you?

Ghostwalker is a Great Dragon. Take one out (reasonably easy, by the way; all you need is an orbital laser battery) and you have about 20 others knocking at your door.

Besides, think of the collateral damage a Denver nuke would have caused. Also, GW negotiated a truce soon enough, and had stuff to offer to the UCAs and CAS - mainly carving up the Aztech sector, to appease them.

Ms. Daviar very likely being informed of his coming surely helped, too. Besides, unlike your hypothetical high-powered runner team, GW didn't have a rep as someone whom you cannot negotiate with (he had, as a matter of fact, no rep at all, so it would have been at least worth a try even if the UCAS hadn't had an idea of who GW was).

QUOTE

What makes you think that a very high powered team cannot negotiate a compromise?

Runner teams usually aren't 50.000 year old magical entities that get their own entries in a 'Threats' file. Comparing your runner to GW is like comparing your ADD Paladin to Akadi and saying he could well get powerful enough to boss around Greater Powers (or that your CoC character could learn to summon, bind, and banish Great Cthulluh and rule R'Lyeh himself).

QUOTE
Governments have given in to terrorist demands before (despite the spin they put on it), what makes you think they won't do so again?

Maybe, if your runners can muster the ressources and network a teror organisation can muster. I doupt any runner team in a reasonably power-leveled campaign could (or should). If you prefer to run the game more on a comic-esque level of power, things are different, but for standard by-the-book shadowrun, a decent terror organisation like ETA, IRA or those christian fundamentalist wackos in the states serioulsy outgun runners already.

QUOTE
2: The U.S. Government, despite what so many love to say, doesn't really care what Al-Queda does. If they did, we wouldn't be allied with nations that are likely to be hiding him - Pakistan, Uzbekistan (which I can't spell), Saudi Arabia and Sudan, to name a few. Its no big deal, yanno?

Uzbekistan hiding bin Laden? I always thought that was what Pakistan and, more specifically, the ISI in Pakistan, did. Really, the Uzbek angle is new to me. Would explain why the Yanks let the opposition down so harshly, though. Still it's kind of a far shot.

QUOTE
3: The U.S., despite many of its transgressions (Abu Gharib, sending our P.O.W.'s to aforementioned Uzbekistan to be tortured because we won't do it ourselves, Guantanamo Bay..(...) And such joys of our past such as the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII), is not going to use atomic weaponry in an area where it could possibly lead to heavy civilian casualties.

Wrong. In fact, the US is the ONLY nation to have ever used the bomb, to this day, in population centers.

QUOTE
So yeah, you have a point that we haven't gone nuclear, but lets keep in mind that it was in NATO's playbook (probably still is) that if the Warsaw Pact and its Red Army decided to move westward, we'd just fire nukes at them. I'm pretty sure its standing US policy that if a Bio/Chem/Nuke is used against us or our allies, we retaliate in tune with atomic (and probably biological and chemical, because we have our stockpiles of those things too. And provide them to others, according to rumor) strikes.

The nukes are still in place, despite the German government demanding their withdrawal for some years now. Their numbers have been reduced somewhat though, and for all I know, it's mainly drop bombs, no more missiles.
Don't overestimate B/C weaponry though. It has never been terribly effective, even though it has been used extensively in a wide range of conflicts over the last hundred years (WWI, WWII, Egypt-Yemen, Gulf War I (Iran-Iraq), the various Iraqi insurrections, Afghanistan, Vietnam ...). Usually, the side employing the B/C weapons even lost.
B/C weapons have a reputation that far outlives their actual impact. Certainly, they're nothing compared to the devastation a single modern H-bomb warhead can provide.
toturi
QUOTE (hermit)
Ghostwalker is a Great Dragon. Take one out (reasonably easy, by the way; all you need is an orbital laser battery) and you have about 20 others knocking at your door.

Runner teams usually aren't 50.000 year old magical entities that get their own entries in a 'Threats' file. Comparing your runner to GW is like comparing your ADD Paladin to Akadi and saying he could well get powerful enough to boss around Greater Powers (or that your CoC character could learn to summon, bind, and banish Great Cthulluh and rule R'Lyeh himself).

Maybe, if your runners can muster the ressources and network a teror organisation can muster. I doupt any runner team in a reasonably power-leveled campaign could (or should). If you prefer to run the game more on a comic-esque level of power, things are different, but for standard by-the-book shadowrun, a decent terror organisation like ETA, IRA or those christian fundamentalist wackos in the states serioulsy outgun runners already.

Nobody came down to DC and asked,"Who is the piece of drek who took out the Loremaster?" More likely, they'd say that the GD in question did not know who muster his forces.

I'm simply comparing runners to other runners. After all, a runner team stole a dragon egg from Masaru, a Great Dragon. And another team stole the Jewel of Memory from Lowfyr, another GD. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your power levels (Get with the SOTA, gritty don't cut it no more).

Of course, what then is a reasonably powered campaign? A team of runners generated using canon char-gen perhaps? A team of runners generated using the canon MJLBB High Powered campaign should equal if not surpass any resources a terror organisation can muster.
hermit
QUOTE

Nobody came down to DC and asked,"Who is the piece of drek who took out the Loremaster?" More likely, they'd say that the GD in question did not know who muster his forces.

Daviar knew, didn't she? And possibly, she sorted it out in private.

Dragons don't settle their affairs on Letterman if they can avoid to, you see. But the absence of public dragon outrage doesn't eman there were queries on whether someone should be laid waste to for slaying the loremaster nonetheless, in private.

QUOTE

I'm simply comparing runners to other runners. After all, a runner team stole a dragon egg from Masaru, a Great Dragon. And another team stole the Jewel of Memory from Lowfyr, another GD. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your power levels (Get with the SOTA, gritty don't cut it no more).

That's a combination of stealth, skill and luck, not murdering menancing threat. A killborg team of runners likely would have a harder time stealing a dragon egg than a team of sneak adepts. Besides, what happened to these teams?m IIRC, they were in deep shit once they realised whom they had just pissed off. They weren't running around parading their stolen egg and bragging about how leet they are and how Masaru/Loffy could suck their chromed balls.

QUOTE
A team of runners generated using the canon MJLBB High Powered campaign should equal if not surpass any resources a terror organisation can muster.

Erm ... you don't really know what a terror organisation is, then. It's a network of contacts as much as hardware. Besides, any sixth world terror outfit has powerful backers, who cover their significant expenses (like RL terror outfits do). Runners don't. At best, they could become terrorists-for-hire like the infamous 'Carlos'. But then, they'd be a terror organisation's pawn, not an individual surpassing a terror organisation's ressources.

And the high powered campaign rules are optional, not canon standard rules.
Earthwalker
Getting back to the original post.
I was partly responsible for trying to demonstrate the fact that security guards are in fact human and killing them is much the same as killing joe bloggs on the street.

Of course I am reminded of the scene in Reservoir dogs. A conversation on the lines of...

"You killed anyone ?"
"Yeah 3 cops."
"No real people ?"
"No".

Sorry for the mangling of the scene but people hopefully get what I mean.

I am sure there is a stage for shadowrunners where theres three levels of people. Shadowrunners, real people and then security forces.

You try not to kill other runners, or real people but the security forces become fair game.

The reason I played with the aspect of security guards as real people was to try to change how people thought. After all alot of my players see themselves as good guys, but then kill teenagers that try to break into there house. I aren't too worried as how you see yourself and how you are are different things. After all its the shades of grey in the game that make it fun.

So I would say it all depends on the runners and the guards as to how they feel about them.
toturi
QUOTE (hermit @ May 16 2005, 08:07 PM)
And the high powered campaign rules are optional, not canon standard rules.

How many contacts can a Face get if he really wants? Why can't a charismatic Face recruit followers a la Aum Shinrikyo or David Koresh?

Is the power level of a team of killborgs different from that of a team of stealth guys, if they are created using the same rules? While a team of stealth guys might find sneaking into a dragon's lair easy, a team of killborgs might find brute forcing their way into a zero zone easy.

The high powered campaign rules are canon optional.

Also you evidently do not know your terrorists organisations. While the older more hierarchical terrorist organisations tend to require massive funding and hence their operations can easily be tracked (mainly because they want their guys to survive, but these days, dead men tell no tales), the more recent franchised terrorist organisations (Al Q-lite) do not require a lot of money. Despite the ideological differences, there is no difference between a runner wetwork team and a terrorist team. The new model for a terrorist organisation is for, most intents and purposes, each individual cell to be a terrorist organisation in of itself.
hermit
QUOTE
How many contacts can a Face get if he really wants? Why can't a charismatic Face recruit followers a la Aum Shinrikyo or David Koresh?

Okay, then show me how using standard rules a face can acquire about a thousand followers (level 3 contacts). Level 3 costs what, nuyen.gif 100.000 each, IIRC? Even if you suppose the face has attributes of 1 and only one skill (etiquette), they can still only have so much money. Certainly not more than a few million, whcih is insufficient for thousands, or even just hundreds of follower NPCs. Sure, he can have two or three, and maybe you can throw in a second- or third-tier gang for additional power. But no way you're gonna end up with a playable OBL using canon rules.

QUOTE
Is the power level of a team of killborgs different from that of a team of stealth guys, if they are created using the same rules?

Yes. One requires a body made of deltaware, cutting edge weaponry and armour, and the other doesn't. One demands :nuyen:20M to come to be, the other demands only sufficient Karma and training. It's really the difference between the CIA and the Pentagon's Forces. CIA may have some fancy drones, but they lack other toys, such as bomber squadrons and nuclear weapons.

QUOTE
Also you evidently do not know your terrorists organisations. While the older more hierarchical terrorist organisations tend to require massive funding and hence their operations can easily be tracked (mainly because they want their guys to survive, but these days, dead men tell no tales), the more recent franchised terrorist organisations (Al Q-lite) do not require a lot of money. Despite the ideological differences, there is no difference between a runner wetwork team and a terrorist team. The new model for a terrorist organisation is for, most intents and purposes, each individual cell to be a terrorist organisation in of itself.

And still, these cells get funding from above, these days mainly in the form of gold coins, blood diamonds or other non-electronical means of fund transfer. Because even for small terro cells, any ubstantial operation requires funds for observation, weapons, training, scouting, and the likes. More than the average runner team can muster. Sure, runners get funding from Johnsons too. If they get all their funds, say, via someone hijacked by Winternight or the Sons of Sauron or the Hand of Five, they ARE a terror cell. But no way can a single runner or runners team muster the same ressources a terror organisation can.

QUOTE
The high powered campaign rules are canon optional.

Duh. So are the deadlier game rules.
toturi
The original question was how many contacts can a Face have if he really wants? But I'll oblige you. By the standard rules, create a normal Face (if that is what you want) and start making contacts. With sufficient, karma and time, you can have as many contact as you want and care to maintain, which any normal Face would do. Never said you had to start with them. Simple, duh.

The 20 mil nuyen.gif you put into the killborg translates into the karma and training you put into your stealth guy. And let me tell you it is far simpler to get money than to get karma and time.

No, those cells operate independently and are funded minimally from the top. That is what makes them so difficult to hunt down. Tracing the money trail is useless if each cell funds itself. And if each cell funds itself, then for all intents and purposes, they are an independent entity(which sometimes leads to cross purposes within the "larger" organisation). The only thing in common is that they take political or religious (ideological) direction from a common source. The franchising of terror is creating terrorist organisations not much larger than a single cell. That way, there is little risk of infiltration, little risk of intelligence leak, and once the deed is done, there is no one to arrest! The terrorist organisations in SR are based on conventional terrorist organisations. Well and good, but nowadays RL terror groups look more like runner teams.

Back on topic, a runner team with a rep for violence, can, by the book, intimidate individuals and if the individual in question is the boss, why can't the runner team cow the company or corp? There is no real way a beginning runner team can cow a corp, unless the company is very small. But that certain critical mass is reached, why not? Did you think Mr Bin Laden just woke up one day and decided to terrorise the western world as as char-gen NPC?
Penta
QUOTE (hermit)
If you prefer to run the game more on a comic-esque level of power, things are different, but for standard by-the-book shadowrun, a decent terror organisation like ETA, IRA or those christian fundamentalist wackos in the states serioulsy outgun runners already.

Wrong. In fact, the US is the ONLY nation to have ever used the bomb, to this day, in population centers.

Ehhh...

Your delusion is touching, almost.

1. The Christian fundies aren't organized. They've universally been lone wackos with gripes and the sort of crap you can buy off the shelf, mixed to become bombs.

2. Bringing up Hiroshima and Nagasaki to illustrate current US strategy is completely insane.

Our playbook has changed, massively. Indeed, practically the only reason Congress funded it early on (put down the Kool-Aid, they still matter a fuck and they cannot be manipulated quite as easily as the twits with no knowledge of US politics think) was because our playbook changed.

Little Boy and Fat Man would these days be classed as tactical nuclear weapons...Which, actually...:

QUOTE (USAF paper on tactical nuclear weapons)
In this atmosphere, President Bush unilaterally ordered the destruction of American tactical nuclear weapons, and Congress has "cast this decision into concrete" by passing legislation forbidding the testing, development, and stockpiling of nuclear warheads having yields of less than five kilotons, so that the tactical nuclear option is, for now, off the table.


For the record, the paper is here.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (CanvasBack)
Once the body count of "civilians*" your team has left behind approach double digits, a task force will be put into place to hunt you and your team down. And you probably won't escape and will either be captured by the gummit and go directly to jail or caught by a corp and end up being disposed of in a 50 gallon drum of toxic waste. Governments and Corps like to believe they have a monopoly on coercion. People that seek to disprove that belief are quickly squashed.

This isn't Grand Theft Auto. The fuzz doesn't automatically find you, or have any idea who you are for that matter. Moreover, even if they did the odds that you go beyond their jurisdiction before they can follow are high.
QUOTE (frostPDP)
If terrorists took control of planes today, you bet they'd charge the cockpit immediately. The room for negotiaton = 0.

I wouldn't bet the rent on that, or any other meaningful amount of money. Maybe $2.50?
QUOTE (frostPDP)
4: We have no idea where the man is.

And you think the Shadowrunners will be infinitely more visible?
QUOTE (hermit)
Ghostwalker is a Great Dragon. Take one out (reasonably easy, by the way; all you need is an orbital laser battery) and you have about 20 others knocking at your door.

False on all counts. There's no evidence that an orbital laser battery will do the trick (take a look at their karma pools sometime), and there's very specific evidence that other greats will not retaliate for the death of any given dragon. Really, I have no idea where this "dragons stand united" idea got started.
QUOTE (hermit)
Ms. Daviar very likely being informed of his coming surely helped, too.

proof.gif
QUOTE (hermit)
A killborg team of runners likely would have a harder time stealing a dragon egg than a team of sneak adepts.

You're assuming that they're mutually exclusive. They are absolutely, emphatically, completely not exclusive. Sneak adepts make the best killborgs, in my experience.

~J
Sheffield
First off, I think it's a ridiculous starting point to say that "Security guards have a dangerous job and are aware of the risks and therefore it is morally acceptable to kill them if they refuse to immediately capitulate and hand over the master keys." If this is the mindset you assign a character and the way you choose to play them, fine, but this reasoning just doesn't hold up. It's basically saying that the high-risk employee should have known better than to have had a family or to expect anything other than death at the hands of a runner. Your character causes the risk and then claims that the guard should have anticipated that risk, as though there were no agency behind it. I can see this as a justification a character might use after a shootout, but to present it as a RL moral case is ridiculous. Even taking the runner's role in a guard's death out of the equation, it's like saying that other high-risk workers (firefighters, crab fishermen) are less valuable as people than desk jockeys and that their families should expect their deaths and accept them as matter of course.

This is not to say chars ought to pack gel rounds or ought to bring a stun glove to a gun fight. Just that players shouldn't be let off the hook so easily after a Heat-style bloodbath. Heat is a great example of the repercussions of a single killing. The whole plot of that movie spirals out of the fact that Waingro got trigger-happy and shot the first guard. Players should be free to use lethal force, but neither they nor the media and law enforcement of 2060-whatever year you play, should just write off the dead guard as something less than a dead person.

Second, this idea of runner violence "cowing" corps is also ridiculous. If runners are this powerful, it undermines the challenge of the game because it means the runners outclass their opposition. It makes every run a cakewalk and smacks of overpowered twinkery. Moreover, in order to have a reputation, you've got to be known and recognized. As far as I'm concerned, the failure of the latter achievements outweigh the success of the former. If you're known and recognized, you're a failure as a runner. In fact, I think they give 6 points for that flaw. On the other hand, if you're causing enough single-handed mayhem that all security guards in Seattle are terrified of an unknown "Security Guard Killer," you aren't going to remain unknown for long.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Sheffield @ May 16 2005, 12:00 PM)
It's basically saying that the high-risk employee should have known better than to have had a family or to expect anything other than death at the hands of a runner.

They should.
QUOTE (Sheffield)
Second, this idea of runner violence "cowing" corps is also ridiculous.

Corps are made of people, and come in all sizes.

And read up on the Insurance Wars before you tell us that the media won't write off a dead guard.

~J
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (frostPDP @ May 16 2005, 01:01 AM)
Suffice to say, it all begins with the runner team.  With a few riggers, street-sams, adepts and mages, well you could make a decent stand against a corp force if you have the financial backing.  But in the end that allmighty hammer of force-escalation beats you.  As you raise the amount of force you use, throwing more and more pounds of C-XII, they increase their commitment.  First its just a helpcopter.  Then two.  Then six.

The point is... You don't make a stand. You disappear as fast as you can, and sometime a Alpha Combatgun is a useful tool for doing said job.

But the posts made since last night have jumped the tracks considerably. You're suggesting a tactical nuke to deal with a runner team? Really? What kind of dumbass, know-nothing, incompetent, unprofessional, unstealth team are you envisioning that would have that kind of hammer dropped on them?

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
And read up on the Insurance Wars before you tell us that the media won't write off a dead guard.

I think they were more concerned about the dozen jumbo jets that blew up simultaneously.
Sheffield
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Sheffield @ May 16 2005, 12:00 PM)
It's basically saying that the high-risk employee should have known better than to have had a family or to expect anything other than death at the hands of a runner.

They should.
QUOTE (Sheffield)
Second, this idea of runner violence "cowing" corps is also ridiculous.

Corps are made of people, and come in all sizes.

And read up on the Insurance Wars before you tell us that the media won't write off a dead guard.

~J

I think you're missing my point about the "inevitability" of guard death. It becomes a manifest destiny situation where the runner writes off or justifies the death as though they had no part in it. Even in the Shadowrun world, you can't tell me that the guard mortality rate is 100%. The Lancet says the most dangerous work in the world now has a mortality rate of around 0.1% per year. Even if a corporate security guard had *twenty* times the risk, you've still got around 70% living to retirement. That's a lot of dead, but still the expectation is that the majority will live to see old age. Unless a player character chooses to cap one instead of subdue him.

But this other business about writing off dead guards is having the cake and eating it.

On the one hand, there's the argument that the individuals in the corps will know enough about a runner's rep to be cowed by it.

On the other hand, there's the assertion that the media doesn't report on guard deaths.

These cannot both be true. If the people in the corp, the secretaries and rentacops, rather than the management or the decisionmaking bodies, are going to be intimidated by a runner's rep, they need to know about that rep. If the media dismisses dead guards, then no matter how many dead guards a runner stacks up, the ground level employees aren't going to know enough about it to be cowed.
Crimsondude 2.0
It does nothing to ensure loyalty to the corp if the corp announces on corp trid every night that they are unable to keep the rabble off their property and that personnel are getting killed on a daily basis (or every time it happens, anyway) because the corp couldn't protect them.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Sheffield)
First off, I think it's a ridiculous starting point to say that "Security guards have a dangerous job and are aware of the risks and therefore it is morally acceptable to kill them if they refuse to immediately capitulate and hand over the master keys." If this is the mindset you assign a character and the way you choose to play them, fine, but this reasoning just doesn't hold up. It's basically saying that the high-risk employee should have known better than to have had a family or to expect anything other than death at the hands of a runner. Your character causes the risk and then claims that the guard should have anticipated that risk, as though there were no agency behind it. I can see this as a justification a character might use after a shootout, but to present it as a RL moral case is ridiculous. Even taking the runner's role in a guard's death out of the equation, it's like saying that other high-risk workers (firefighters, crab fishermen) are less valuable as people than desk jockeys and that their families should expect their deaths and accept them as matter of course.

No one thinks it is immoral for enemy soldiers to kill each other on the battlefield. Why should anyone think it is immoral for enemy soldiers to kill each other in the lobby of a corporate skyscraper?
Sheffield
Now we're conflating law enforcement personnel with soldiers?

Guards are fundamentally employees, not a standing army. They, like the majority of SR Seattle, happen to work for the corps. It takes a pretty twisted worldview to make that mean marked for, and deserving no expectation, but death.
scoundrel
How many people have actually played characters who would drop Joe Guard and not Jimmy Wageslave if both of them presented a threat?

I can honestly say that I haven't.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Sheffield)
Guards are fundamentally employees, not a standing army. They, like the majority of SR Seattle, happen to work for the corps. It takes a pretty twisted worldview to make that mean marked for, and deserving no expectation, but death.

And we all know that non-twisted worldviews are so conducive to Shadowrunning.

~J
Sheffield
I frequently play characters that would drop neither (at least permanently).

I guess what I'm saying is that making the argument that guards have it coming and should present neither moral nor legal worries for a runner simplifies the game to the level of Grand Theft Auto, where the bodies vanish after a few moments and the stars vanish without lasting effect. But the strength of a game like this is that it allows for greater degrees of complexity and varied consequences.

The "guards have it coming" line justifies every player character being a hardened sociopath and irons out a lot of interesting plot and character wrinkles.
scoundrel
QUOTE (Sheffield)
I frequently play characters that would drop neither (at least permanently).

Me too, but such characters are irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. smile.gif
Sheffield
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Sheffield @ May 16 2005, 12:57 PM)
Guards are fundamentally employees, not a standing army. They, like the majority of SR Seattle, happen to work for the corps. It takes a pretty twisted worldview to make that mean marked for, and deserving no expectation, but death.

And we all know that non-twisted worldviews are so conducive to Shadowrunning.

~J

As I said in my first post about this, this sort of reasoning makes for a fine attempt by a character to rationalize a shootout, but when it's passed off as a sensible RL moral stance or common sense, then all characters wind up being sociopaths who carry such strong anti-corp sentiments that cashing a paycheck is grounds for execution. It makes for a very boring homogenized killbot mentality among a group of characters that all act like Mad Max, but one has a Deck and another has a VCR etc.
Kagetenshi
I think it's a perfectly sensible moral stance. That doesn't mean that all of my characters will agree.

~J
Lantzer
QUOTE (scoundrel)
One thing to consider is that cameras can be defeated by a good decker or rigger, or even by simply stealing the security tape, whereas it'll be difficult at best to defeat an eyewitness without killing him.

Also, depending on the premise of the run, masks are not always an available option.

Two disagreements with your statements:

1) It's easy to 'defeat' an eyewitness. At the best of times, eyewitnesses are unreliable. In addition, very simple tricks in dress and personal grooming, not to mention minor prosthetic makup can ensure that all an eyewitness notices is a temporary feature that is designed to attract his notice.

2) I think a mask is quite viable in any situation where a runner needs to blow someone's head off. Doing something you shouldn't be? Then pull that scarf up over your nose for the moment. It can become simply decorative again when you are done...

Runner teams with lower body counts are often seen as more professional because they are proven thinkers. High body counts are an indication of laziness, lack of planning, and the inability to improvise.
Sheffield
QUOTE (Lantzer @ May 16 2005, 01:43 PM)
1) It's easy to 'defeat' an eyewitness.  At the best of times, eyewitnesses are unreliable. In addition, very simple tricks in dress and personal grooming, not to mention minor prosthetic makup can ensure that all an eyewitness notices is a temporary feature that is designed to attract his notice.

Bob: Why is there tape on your nose?

Dignan: Exactly!
biggrin.gif
scoundrel
Lantzer:

1) Relying on an eyewitness to be unreliable is not a reliable practice to adopt. wink.gif

2) As to when masks are not a viable option: there are some runs where infiltration, rather than stealth or blatant killing, is necessary to accomplish the objective. However, you might need to kill someone during the course of said infiltration to prevent your cover from being blown. Unless you're dealing with a troll with an Intelligence of 1, pulling your scarf over your nose is usually not going to cut it.
frostPDP
Alright, keep in mind the situation is purely hypothetical. It is based on an ultra-extreme impossible notion that DEUS (remember him) would team up with HUMANS. It wouldn't.

Also, the US policy during WWII and today are comparable in only relatively minor ways. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were on par with the casualties of the battles of Okinawa and Iwo Jima and the fire-bombings of Tokyo and Dresden. We would never fire-bomb a town with the intent of killing one hundred thousand, so we would never drop a low-yeiled atomic bomb with the intent of killing....The same number of people.

Again, it comes down to force and counter-force. The reason shadowrunners are useful is because they aren't powerful, aren't high-media, and are concealable and - gasp - use-able. They're pawns. Queens you throw your forces at, pawns you use to throw at the queen. When runners become queens, you have a problem.

In D&D, if you see your gaming group decide to conquer the kingdom they've been saving for some time (Ahh, arrogant level 13's) you might not logically be able to throw together a squadron of level 15 soldiers to stop them. Otherwise the level 13s wouldn't be the main line the whole time.

In SR, your runners are probably about level 13 equivalent. They are better than common people and guards, but there are many people greater then them. If your runners become 17th, 18th by way of huge Karma income and can beat even the elites, you have a problem.

Soooo in short we know the situation would never rise. No group of decidedly idiotic homicidal maniacs could accumulate so much power as to be a legitimate threat to all the region's governments, thus justifying a nuclear attack. If they did, they'd need a reason why conventional high explosives would not be effective - Something like the Arc.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (frostPDP @ May 16 2005, 03:18 PM)
Alright, keep in mind the situation is purely hypothetical.  It is based on an ultra-extreme impossible notion that DEUS (remember him) would team up with HUMANS.  It wouldn't.

proof.gif
QUOTE
Also, the US policy during WWII and today are comparable in only relatively minor ways.  The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were on par with the casualties of the battles of Okinawa and Iwo Jima and the fire-bombings of Tokyo and Dresden.  We would never fire-bomb a town with the intent of killing one hundred thousand

proof.gif

They bombed the towns to kill civilians. That's what it comes down to. Scale was only a matter of capability.
QUOTE
Again, it comes down to force and counter-force.  The reason shadowrunners are useful is because they aren't powerful, aren't high-media, and are concealable and - gasp - use-able.  They're pawns.  Queens you throw your forces at, pawns you use to throw at the queen.  When runners become queens, you have a problem.

No. They're deniable. That's pretty much the alpha and the omega of it.
QUOTE
In D&D, if you see your gaming group decide to conquer the kingdom they've been saving for some time (Ahh, arrogant level 13's) you might not logically be able to throw together a squadron of level 15 soldiers to stop them.  Otherwise the level 13s wouldn't be the main line the whole time.
In SR, your runners are probably about level 13 equivalent.  They are better than common people and guards, but there are many people greater then them.  If your runners become 17th, 18th by way of huge Karma income and can beat even the elites, you have a problem.

Not a valid comparison. In D&D a high-level character character can take blows from mooks for a very long period of time. In Shadowrun a 2,000-karma character is not unlikely to be severely injured if not killed by a six-round APDS HMG burst that can be delivered by someone who, aside from having access to aforementioned HMG and APDS rounds for it, can be built at chargen.
QUOTE
Soooo in short we know the situation would never rise.  No group of decidedly idiotic homicidal maniacs could accumulate so much power as to be a legitimate threat to all the region's governments, thus justifying a nuclear attack.  If they did, they'd need a reason why conventional high explosives would not be effective - Something like the Arc.

You don't need to be a threat to the government, just the people who make up the government.

~J
Gambitt
I do agree in some ways Sheffield, but the guy had a gun pointed at my chars head, and i had live rounds loaded. The reason i had live rounds loaded are because they do a reasonable amount more damage than gel rounds, and in situations where you need to not raise the alarm they are just plain more effective in putting people down fast.
My Chars never shoot random people for fun, or for the sake of it..... but if they shoot at me or threaten their lives then they do fire back.
hermit
QUOTE
You don't need to be a threat to the government, just the people who make up the government.

The difference being ...?
Kagetenshi
The difference being that it is orders of magnitude easier and less resource-intensive to make Senators 1-5 fear for their personal lives and those of their families, or hell, even the president of the US, than to topple or be able to topple the government of said US. This is not a feature unique to the US, it applies to any country where the government is more than just a few individuals.

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Sheffield @ May 16 2005, 01:05 PM)
I frequently play characters that would drop neither (at least permanently).

I guess what I'm saying is that making the argument that guards have it coming and should present neither moral nor legal worries for a runner simplifies the game to the level of Grand Theft Auto, where the bodies vanish after a few moments and the stars vanish without lasting effect. But the strength of a game like this is that it allows for greater degrees of complexity and varied consequences.

The "guards have it coming" line justifies every player character being a hardened sociopath and irons out a lot of interesting plot and character wrinkles.

"Guard have it coming" isn't the line of thought behind the solider analogy. More like "Its their job to stop me even if it means killing me. Its my job to make sure they don't stop me even if I have to kill them. We're both just doing our jobs."
Sheffield
Gambitt, I'm not saying Shadowrun is supposed to be a "less lethal" game, and that everyone is supposed to rock it with shock gloves and narcoject, just that I prefer games where the GM doesn't approve characters with "Corps killed my parents so I hate corps" backgrounds and who roll in on a sneak job with LMGs and plastic explosives. I mean Cannon Companion is what, 100 pages long and there's a total of one page of less-lethal weapons spread through it? But at the same time, the game is more than the mechanics of mass murder. There is a world around the run and the guards and other opposition should more than cardboard targets for the runner to knock down.

It's the GM's job to make killing difficult, both in the course of the run and in terms of making things right afterward. Think about a scenario where you've got a rigger, a decker, a mage, a face, and a sam. The rigger is running surveillance outside the target facility, the face is infiltrating as a cleaner, the decker is hacking through a dataline tap placed by the face, the mage is projecting and keeping an eye out, and the sam is covering the exit from an alley across the street. The decker is detected, all hell breaks loose, and the sam charges in to get the face out. There's a gunfight and a guard dies.

Pow. The whole crew is on the hook for murder one. That's a big repercussion. I'm not talking about law or media, though they may be involved. I'm talking about infighting. Even though the sam was the only really offensive unit in the team, he has involved the entire outfit in a capital crime. Was it necessary? Maybe, but it's still a headache they didn't have before. Now to complicate further, say the rigger has the pacificist [1] flaw. Now we've got some good in-group tension.

My point is just that the GM shouldn't go with the "he's a security guard, nobody's gonna miss him" explanation. They should really work the "screwed if you do, screwed if you don't" aspect of the situation. On the one hand, the guard would kill or arrest your runner if he could. On the other hand, he's got the law on his side. The runner is the trespasser, the runner is the attacker. Less-lethal is a way to try and walk the line between being caught and being a mass murderer.
Kagetenshi
If the guards are inhuman cardboard cutouts, you might as well use less-lethal rounds because there's just no point to it. There's a reason John Carmack insisted that Doom and Wolfenstein 3D have bodies that don't disappear, even though it significantly increased the demand on computer systems.

~J
frostPDP
Kage,

What do you need proof of? The numbers are factual. Tokyo lost about 100K, as I'm pretty sure (Its offhand, I could look it up if you'd like) Dresden did. As for the atomic bombings, I could look up casualty reports for that as well, but I assure you they were comparable to the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa when you add both sides together.

Proof of American policy to not torch civilians is seen in the battle of Fallujha (spelling, I know) where we just plain didn't firebomb them. Sure, a few fuel-air bombs would have done the job and would have lost us all respect. Tactically speaking, its a bad idea to just write off cities if you're trying to maintain some facade of justice in your occupation (not to mention some image of "good for us" to your local indigenous peoples)

As for proof that Deus would team with humans...Well, think of it like this - Is he benevolent to those he rules over? Or does he deprive them of their humanity? I could be wrong, I dunno. It just seems like a bad plan, to me.

When it comes to a 2,000 karma character, you have to presume they've spent that Karma. It costs a terrible 21 Karma to go from a 6 to a 7 in Quickness for a human. If armor is limited by quickness, the #1 way to survive your situation is to pack on armor like no tommorow - To do this, you pack on quickness. Presuming a no-upper-limit theory (which is why this is sort of non-canonical to begin with) you wind up with a character with such quickness and body that they wear armor sufficient to deflect tank shells.

Its completely unrealistic. It probably wouldn't go over in most (okay, all) campaigns. It -can- be done if you allow someone to go over maximum attribute scores at x4 Karma. What does it cost to go from 20 to 21? 84? out of 2000? Nothing. That right there drops most HMGs down to a few points, now just go one step further and make it 40. Again, don't misrepresent me, its COMPLETELY unrealistic.

But then again, Ghostwalker has to have book-based stats in some regard, too. And look at the damage he did.
Kagetenshi
Sorry, I misinterpreted. I thought you were saying that then (Tokyo and Dresden) the intention was not to kill civilians en masse when it clearly was.
QUOTE
As for proof that Deus would team with humans...Well, think of it like this - Is he benevolent to those he rules over?

Yes. Just look at the upgrades he provides.
QUOTE
When it comes to a 2,000 karma character, you have to presume they've spent that Karma. It costs a terrible 21 Karma to go from a 6 to a 7 in Quickness for a human. If armor is limited by quickness, the #1 way to survive your situation is to pack on armor like no tommorow - To do this, you pack on quickness. Presuming a no-upper-limit theory (which is why this is sort of non-canonical to begin with) you wind up with a character with such quickness and body that they wear armor sufficient to deflect tank shells.

Only the highest two ratings apply, and if they go the hardened route suddenly they can't stack with any other worn armor.
QUOTE
It -can- be done if you allow someone to go over maximum attribute scores at x4 Karma.

And if I allow infinite karma pool you can do anything. Neither are relevant.

~J
Penta
QUOTE (Sheffield)
Even taking the runner's role in a guard's death out of the equation, it's like saying that other high-risk workers (firefighters, crab fishermen) are less valuable as people than desk jockeys and that their families should expect their deaths and accept them as matter of course.

Crabbers? What's their injury/fatality/accident rate like? (IE, just how dangerous is it to be crabbing?)

Such an odd example.
frostPDP
Hehe no harm no foul, Kage. But as for Deus' upgrades....They did quite a lot of mind-control, no?
Kagetenshi
He can make you faster, stronger, more resistant to damage. He can make you smarter, improve your memory, allow you to interface with computers without a deck. He take take away the pain, the uncertainty, the loneliness. He can give you something to live for.

~J
mfb
that's only "bad" if you consider free will to be "good". i do, and so do you, but if you look at it from the perspective that free will leads to things like drug addiction, dissatisfaction with one's place in society, suicide, etcetera, you might see how free will could be considered not-good.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Penta)
QUOTE (Sheffield @ May 16 2005, 12:00 PM)
Even taking the runner's role in a guard's death out of the equation, it's like saying that other high-risk workers (firefighters, crab fishermen) are less valuable as people than desk jockeys and that their families should expect their deaths and accept them as matter of course.

Crabbers? What's their injury/fatality/accident rate like? (IE, just how dangerous is it to be crabbing?)

Such an odd example.

IIRC, Crab fishermen (in Alaska and whatnot) have one of the highest on-the-job fatality rates of any job in the country.
frostPDP
True, but for a team of sociopathic runners with a plan for chaos, I doubt they would trust Deus to take their minds over. Besides, since they'd have such a high Willpower, I am fairly certain they'd shrug off must of Deus' stuff so he wouldn't trust them.

Which is why its a BS question, its amusing.
Kagetenshi
I find it very unlikely that the team would shrug off Deus' stuff. Otaku don't, and take a look at their Willpower scores.

~J
frostPDP
Truth - Never really seen much by way of Otaku. But we're talking supernaturally high, 20+ willpower. The sort that eats truth syrum for breakfast and, well, doesn't realllly exist.

But the psychotic, anarchic runner team with uberpower would never let the possibility occur. If they would, I don't see how they'd make it past 100 Karma, let alone a never-possible 2,000. Counter-factualism is fun!
Sheffield
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
QUOTE (Penta @ May 16 2005, 07:16 PM)
QUOTE (Sheffield @ May 16 2005, 12:00 PM)
Even taking the runner's role in a guard's death out of the equation, it's like saying that other high-risk workers (firefighters, crab fishermen) are less valuable as people than desk jockeys and that their families should expect their deaths and accept them as matter of course.

Crabbers? What's their injury/fatality/accident rate like? (IE, just how dangerous is it to be crabbing?)

Such an odd example.

IIRC, Crab fishermen (in Alaska and whatnot) have one of the highest on-the-job fatality rates of any job in the country.

Yeah. I used crabbers as the example because currently that's the most dangerous job in the industrial world, way surpassing any kind of law enforcement or guard duty, with the possible exception of active-duty military, depending on circumstances. Currently their death rate is 103 per 100,000 per year. Which is a crazy high death rate, but which still means that assuming a 30 year career, 97% of life-time crabbers live to retirement. So saying a security guard should expect nothing more than death at the hands of a runner is comic.
Kagetenshi
There's a difference between what one ought to expect and what will happen. If I roll twelve dice, I ought to expect to get two successes. That doesn't mean it will happen.

Perhaps more to the point, if I engage in some risky activity, I ought to expect that I may die from it. If I go mountain-climbing up near-vertical cliff-faces in the wilderness with a family at home, I ought to expect the possibility that I will not come back to them. To do otherwise is foolish.

~J
Smiley
It's not to say that every guard should expect to be killed, but he or she should hardly be shocked and surprised. As many have said, it comes with the job. You don't think IRL cops get all pissy when someone pulls a gun, do you?

"HEY! You can't do that! Nobody told me when I joined the force that there would be violence!"
Sheffield
Okay, to try and make sense out of that: The most dangerous job in the world today has a 97% survival rate over thirty years. This means that the average high risk worker is statistically justified in expecting and planning for a long life. Now say a high risk worker rolls snake eyes and gets killed by a runner. Was he wrong to have expected a long life? Does this fluke justify this line from the initial post (which is what the crabber reference was addressing):

"Really dont understand the moral point of view that someones just a security guard supporting his family by picking up a pay check.... its utter rubbish. If u want a safe job dont take one where you dont have a gun, and are expected to fight off anyone who breaks the Corps rules."

Basically, I'm using other high risk jobs to show that the odds are still very heavily in favor of survival and that the argument that security guards can't or shouldn't be ordinary joes with families just doesn't make sense.
Gambitt
This is kind of off topic, but just reminded me of a run our chars did a few years back.

A Mr. Johnson working for Yamatetsu, hired us to infiltrate one of its own compounds as there had been some very suspicious security breaches recently. So we tooled up and went in to see what we could find out. We got in smooth and finally got to a room with one entrance/exit that we knew from the layout provided led to the main computer room. The guard in there was reading the daily news, and didnt even glipse us before 2 gel rounds had taken him out. The decker hooked up and searched the system and we ghosted out.
Anyway the guard along with a few others we had bypassed were sacked, and the info we got showed some kind of inside job going on where money was being stolen. The Johnson hired us to go in there with false IDs and act as security expects to tighten the place up, with the main reason being to work out who was involved and leading the inside job.
3 days into our investigation the compound was attacked, with the insiders letting a group of 15 masked people get into the complex to kill us and destroy some evidence hidden on site. When the smoke cleared and we gathered all the bits of the attackers together we found the security guard we had got sacked amongst them, with a burst fire shotgun hole of some size right through him.
We went to his funeral.. yep thats right his funeral, pretending to be old security guard colleagues from work, and found out he wasnt part of the whole thing. He had it fact just been contacted by someone from his old workplace saying they had a job for him that was high risk but payed a shit load of money.

So it just shows you can non lethal a guard, but in this guys case it was still lethal in the end nyahnyah.gif
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