 Blood Power!, Cyberware now makes sense |
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 May 15 2005, 06:45 PM
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#1
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
Researchers in Japan have found a way to make cyberware that draws power from human blood.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&cl...11596760144B215 Not only is SR cyberware now plausable but so are the human batteries from that movie about that Matrix thing. |
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May 15 2005, 06:52 PM
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#2
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The enormous amount of energy needed for the extra power, for example, in cyber arms would require a lot more eating. Overcomable perhaps, but you'd need some serious increase in distribution of glucose and such.
However the Matrix thing is still wacked. The human body is ineffecient for electrical generation because we have all this baggage in us that is designed for use doing other things. |
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May 15 2005, 08:00 PM
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#3
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
How do we know that cyberarms require more energy than flesh arms? It is quete possible that someone was able to come close to replicating the energy efficiency of natural limbs. Actually, that is probably whhy syberlimb are absurdly weak and slow. They have a sut corners somewhere to make the limbs more efficient.
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May 15 2005, 08:06 PM
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#4
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I mean from the above natural strength of some cyber. Although they could try using batteries to even out the glucose requirements over time (which is actually something muscles do, in a different manner). |
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May 15 2005, 08:21 PM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
You know, considering that this power cell currently puts out a jaw dropping 0.2 milliwatts of power, I think we can safely say that cuberware's still a little ways off.
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May 15 2005, 08:43 PM
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#6
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
The Matrix doesn't make any sense, because no way a bunch of human bodies is ever gonna make the cut compared to geothermal power (or orbital solar sattelites, but apparently, the Matrix machines are well able to build mountain-range-sized battlethings, but space travel isn't possible to them). But anyway, those movies sucked ass, propability-wise, so let's stop talking about them, shall we?
This sort of energy supply does, however, make sense for Shadowrun cyberware, as it would seriously cut down on maintainance required ton upkeep it (batteries need to be changed, such an energy supply doesn't). Maybe it's too low power for Cyberlimbs, but these can deal with replaceable batteries more easily than purely internal implants, like crainal decks, tactical computers, and the likes. At least smallish internal-only implants are possible with this system. |
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May 15 2005, 11:26 PM
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#7
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Still doesn't cut it. What Morpheus said makes perfect sense—humans become batteries. The problem is that they become batteries, not generators, and very non-portable batteries at that. Unless the entire human race is maintained as a UPS, they're just a way to get less use out of the same amount of generated energy. ~J |
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May 15 2005, 11:31 PM
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#8
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It sound a lot more powerful if you call it 200 nanowatts I can see the commercials now. The Novatech 350,000 power supply is the latest and greatest cyberware biobattery available today. Formerlly available only to military special forces the 350,000 produces a full 350,000 picowatts of power. That is 50,000 more picowatts than the closest competetor. When you buy Novatech you buy the best. |
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May 15 2005, 11:40 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
Gives me a whole new outlook on using Blood Magic to power Cybermantic Rituals.
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May 16 2005, 01:40 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 4-September 04 Member No.: 6,628 |
In the original concept of the Matrix, the humans were used not as batteries but as parallel organic processors for the machines. However the Wachowski brothers decided that it was too complex an idea for the masses to grasp and went with batteries.
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May 16 2005, 05:10 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
This is a heck of an advance over SR's baseline "bioelectricity" for cyberware. Bleh.
It sounds even cooler if you call it 200,000 nanowatts. ;) (1 milliwatt = 1000 microwatts = 1,000,000 nanowatts) |
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May 16 2005, 08:08 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
:-) Working on it. When I get done with my snr project, I'll post it somewhere. Sumation: Using Shape memory alloys woven into latice structures to create an actuator that moves and responds as per normal muscle. (IE zap it and it contracts) Between this blood power and brain gate, cybernetics is getting closer and closer. Vampires might be upset on our invasion into their teritory, though. :-) |
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May 16 2005, 08:34 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 22-April 05 Member No.: 7,352 |
Yeah, the Matrix battery thing is plain stupid. The body is terribly inefficient: you'd get more energy by burning the foodstuffs the "batteries" were being fed and firing steam-turbine generators. And the whole idea of people subsisting on dead bodies? Idiotic perpetual motion pyramid scheme baloney.
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May 16 2005, 09:03 PM
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#14
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No no, it makes sense once you assume you're using people. No reason to discard the nutrients they become. It makes the whole thing ever so slightly less inefficient.
~J |
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May 16 2005, 09:25 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
*Runs, Screaming*
PEOPLE! Soylent Green is made from PEOPLE! |
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May 16 2005, 09:35 PM
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#16
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Soylent Green and Soylent Yellow are pretty tasty too! ...what? |
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May 17 2005, 02:45 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 176 Joined: 8-March 05 Member No.: 7,146 |
Ok, about the Matrix thing.
Lets face this like an enginer Take out a sheat of paper. Draw a little stick man on it. Now draw a little doted line box around Mr Battery. This box is our system. When enginers (and other scientific profesions) incounter increadibly complex things (such as people) we simplify things by declaring the boundries of our system, we don't care what is going on inside this system, we only care about what crosses the box. Trust me, this works. Now draw an arrow going out of the box. Lable it 'Heat'. This heat is the what is used to creat the energy the machinese use. Now draw an arrow going into the box. This is the energy into the system (in this case chemical energy provided from food). Now assuming our system is in steady state (It pretty much has to be) the energy in must equal the energy out (E heat = E food). So our system, Mr Battery cannot make more energy than you put in. In fact, he will release less useable energy than goes in. 1st the arrow labled 'Heat' would actualy be two smaller arrows, one labeled 'Useful heat' and 'waste heat'. 2nd, In all reactions there is a irreversabilty. A hundred percent efficent reaction is one that can just as easily go one direction as the other, the metobalism of food by cells is (like most, and I beleave all, reactions) not a reversable reaction. Some energy is lost due to entropy. This also works if the energy out is this new mistical 'blood battery', simply lable an additional arrow leaving the box 'blood battery power' and the equation still holds true. (E heat + E blood battery = E food). In short the thermodynamics does not work for the powerplants, besides why build the matrix when you can lobotimise the humans and get past the whole problem. I would of instead had the machines wondering where they went wrong, and were running sumulations trying to figure it out. But that woulden't have linked the machines and humans fates together so closley. Oh well, It's just best if we shudder and try to ignore the hookey thermodynamics. |
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May 17 2005, 06:10 AM
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#18
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
That's true no matter what source of energy that you use. Surely, there are more efficient methods other than using humans and there are more efficient ways to use humans but without human interaction the entire machine Race would have had no purpose. Machines were created to serve humans. Even after gaining independance they continued to do by creating a wealth of superior technological goods for human consumption. After the war they couldn't just abandon humanity because without humanity they would have no purpose and a machine with no purpose must be deleted. Between keeping those annoying humans in an artificial world and having no hope for anything other than mass suicide the former seemed like a better option. As for cyberware blood power would be an ideal solution for internal implants that you just can't change the batteries to. Its much better than having invasive surgery to recharge your wired reflexes every other week. |
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May 17 2005, 12:36 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
The thermodynamics doesn't work for the Matrix (since the machines have to find power for the food that powers the humans that powers the machines...) But the thermodynamics work just fine for the "blood battery." The humans have no trouble finding plenty of power for their food (unlike the machines). Humans just: *Put some seeds in the ground *Mr. Sun's converts a bunch of hydrogen into helium, releasing light and energy *Mr. Sun's energy power's the plants' growth *The plants are harvested (and/or fed to animals) *The plants (and/or animals) are fed to the cyborg, who powers his muscles and prosthetics with the sugars, fats, and proteins So long as Mr. Sun keeps shining, there's no thermodynamics problem for the "blood battery." |
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May 17 2005, 01:18 PM
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#20
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Or running an extension cord from the back of your head to a nearby outlet. :D |
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May 17 2005, 01:24 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 176 Joined: 8-March 05 Member No.: 7,146 |
I had no problem with blood battery, My message was about the matrix problem. The blood battery does make sence over using the voltage of nerons to power cyberware. (I alwies thought this was quite stupid, now some things like Data jacks could be powered by the device you are jacked into, I alwies thought that going cyber should be more of a package instead of this piece meal ordeal. You start with a basic 'cybered package' that gives you a data jack, small amount of headware memory, a device that taps into your audo and visual centers, a radio, and a battery to power your cyber. The battery would carry enough charge for several days of opperation and could be charged by induction from a simple mat you place under sheets. |
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May 17 2005, 02:03 PM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 22-April 05 Member No.: 7,352 |
No, I'm sorry, but the Matrix makes no scientific sense. Quite simply, the human body is terribly inefficient. You lose energy at the digestive level and at the cellular level. I think cellular respiration, all other factors aside, is only like 40% efficient. From the standpoint of generating electricity, you'd be better off using the food given to human batteries to fire steam-turbine generators. The idea that this system is somehow kept afloat by processing the dead into food is even more ridiculous. Any system, including biological systems, must take in more energy than it puts out. People are not perpetual motion machines. To say that any population is kept stable through constant cannibalization is totally impossible. This is like saying a mother can meet her nutritional needs indefinitely by bearing and then eating children. Bunk. |
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May 17 2005, 02:16 PM
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#23
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Only slightly better. What exactly is doing the processing power, to what ends? A good deal of their mind is going to be tied up with the "illusion" of the Matrix. Once again a painfully inefficent system. Now if the machines were doing it merely out of spite.....Or maybe just some vast experiment, like rats in a cage? |
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May 17 2005, 02:17 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes, you've just repeated the obvious. However, if we're assuming that you've got human batteries for some strange reason of your own, it makes no sense to not gain back a little bit of efficiency by feeding the dead back to the living. ~J |
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May 17 2005, 02:21 PM
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#25
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
well the matrix movies where never realy about getting the thermodynamics right. it was more about wrapping a action movie with crasy special effects (for hollywood at the time atleast) in a question about what reality realy is.
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