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hyzmarca
Researchers in Japan have found a way to make cyberware that draws power from human blood.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&cl...11596760144B215

Not only is SR cyberware now plausable but so are the human batteries from that movie about that Matrix thing.
blakkie
The enormous amount of energy needed for the extra power, for example, in cyber arms would require a lot more eating. Overcomable perhaps, but you'd need some serious increase in distribution of glucose and such.

However the Matrix thing is still wacked. The human body is ineffecient for electrical generation because we have all this baggage in us that is designed for use doing other things.
hyzmarca
How do we know that cyberarms require more energy than flesh arms? It is quete possible that someone was able to come close to replicating the energy efficiency of natural limbs. Actually, that is probably whhy syberlimb are absurdly weak and slow. They have a sut corners somewhere to make the limbs more efficient.
blakkie
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
How do we know that cyberarms require more energy than flesh arms? It is quete possible that someone was able to come close to replicating the energy efficiency of natural limbs. Actually, that is probably whhy syberlimb are absurdly weak and slow. They have a cut corners somewhere to make the limbs more efficient.

I mean from the above natural strength of some cyber. Although they could try using batteries to even out the glucose requirements over time (which is actually something muscles do, in a different manner).
Arethusa
You know, considering that this power cell currently puts out a jaw dropping 0.2 milliwatts of power, I think we can safely say that cuberware's still a little ways off.
hermit
The Matrix doesn't make any sense, because no way a bunch of human bodies is ever gonna make the cut compared to geothermal power (or orbital solar sattelites, but apparently, the Matrix machines are well able to build mountain-range-sized battlethings, but space travel isn't possible to them). But anyway, those movies sucked ass, propability-wise, so let's stop talking about them, shall we?

This sort of energy supply does, however, make sense for Shadowrun cyberware, as it would seriously cut down on maintainance required ton upkeep it (batteries need to be changed, such an energy supply doesn't). Maybe it's too low power for Cyberlimbs, but these can deal with replaceable batteries more easily than purely internal implants, like crainal decks, tactical computers, and the likes.

At least smallish internal-only implants are possible with this system.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Not only is SR cyberware now plausable but so are the human batteries from that movie about that Matrix thing.

Still doesn't cut it. What Morpheus said makes perfect sense—humans become batteries. The problem is that they become batteries, not generators, and very non-portable batteries at that. Unless the entire human race is maintained as a UPS, they're just a way to get less use out of the same amount of generated energy.

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Arethusa)
You know, considering that this power cell currently puts out a jaw dropping 0.2 milliwatts of power, I think we can safely say that cuberware's still a little ways off.

It sound a lot more powerful if you call it 200 nanowatts

I can see the commercials now.

The Novatech 350,000 power supply is the latest and greatest cyberware biobattery available today. Formerlly available only to military special forces the 350,000 produces a full 350,000 picowatts of power. That is 50,000 more picowatts than the closest competetor.

When you buy Novatech you buy the best.
Pthgar
Gives me a whole new outlook on using Blood Magic to power Cybermantic Rituals.
Kyuhan
In the original concept of the Matrix, the humans were used not as batteries but as parallel organic processors for the machines. However the Wachowski brothers decided that it was too complex an idea for the masses to grasp and went with batteries.
Cray74
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Researchers in Japan have found a way to make cyberware that draws power from human blood.

This is a heck of an advance over SR's baseline "bioelectricity" for cyberware. Bleh.

QUOTE
It sound a lot more powerful if you call it 200 nanowatts


It sounds even cooler if you call it 200,000 nanowatts. wink.gif

(1 milliwatt = 1000 microwatts = 1,000,000 nanowatts)
Mortax
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
How do we know that cyberarms require more energy than flesh arms? It is quete possible that someone was able to come close to replicating the energy efficiency of natural limbs.

smile.gif Working on it.
When I get done with my snr project, I'll post it somewhere.
Sumation: Using Shape memory alloys woven into latice structures to create an actuator that moves and responds as per normal muscle. (IE zap it and it contracts)
Between this blood power and brain gate, cybernetics is getting closer and closer.

Vampires might be upset on our invasion into their teritory, though. smile.gif
Sheffield
Yeah, the Matrix battery thing is plain stupid. The body is terribly inefficient: you'd get more energy by burning the foodstuffs the "batteries" were being fed and firing steam-turbine generators. And the whole idea of people subsisting on dead bodies? Idiotic perpetual motion pyramid scheme baloney.
Kagetenshi
No no, it makes sense once you assume you're using people. No reason to discard the nutrients they become. It makes the whole thing ever so slightly less inefficient.

~J
Pthgar
*Runs, Screaming*
PEOPLE! Soylent Green is made from PEOPLE!
BitBasher
QUOTE (Pthgar)
*Runs, Screaming*
PEOPLE! Soylent Green is made from PEOPLE!

Soylent Green and Soylent Yellow are pretty tasty too!

...what?
wagnern
Ok, about the Matrix thing.

Lets face this like an enginer

Take out a sheat of paper. Draw a little stick man on it. Now draw a little doted line box around Mr Battery. This box is our system. When enginers (and other scientific profesions) incounter increadibly complex things (such as people) we simplify things by declaring the boundries of our system, we don't care what is going on inside this system, we only care about what crosses the box. Trust me, this works.

Now draw an arrow going out of the box. Lable it 'Heat'. This heat is the what is used to creat the energy the machinese use. Now draw an arrow going into the box. This is the energy into the system (in this case chemical energy provided from food). Now assuming our system is in steady state (It pretty much has to be) the energy in must equal the energy out (E heat = E food).

So our system, Mr Battery cannot make more energy than you put in.

In fact, he will release less useable energy than goes in. 1st the arrow labled 'Heat' would actualy be two smaller arrows, one labeled 'Useful heat' and 'waste heat'. 2nd, In all reactions there is a irreversabilty. A hundred percent efficent reaction is one that can just as easily go one direction as the other, the metobalism of food by cells is (like most, and I beleave all, reactions) not a reversable reaction. Some energy is lost due to entropy.

This also works if the energy out is this new mistical 'blood battery', simply lable an additional arrow leaving the box 'blood battery power' and the equation still holds true. (E heat + E blood battery = E food).

In short the thermodynamics does not work for the powerplants, besides why build the matrix when you can lobotimise the humans and get past the whole problem. I would of instead had the machines wondering where they went wrong, and were running sumulations trying to figure it out. But that woulden't have linked the machines and humans fates together so closley. Oh well, It's just best if we shudder and try to ignore the hookey thermodynamics.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (wagnern)
Ok, about the Matrix thing.

Lets face this like an enginer

Take out a sheat of paper. Draw a little stick man on it. Now draw a little doted line box around Mr Battery. This box is our system. When enginers (and other scientific profesions) incounter increadibly complex things (such as people) we simplify things by declaring the boundries of our system, we don't care what is going on inside this system, we only care about what crosses the box. Trust me, this works.

Now draw an arrow going out of the box. Lable it 'Heat'. This heat is the what is used to creat the energy the machinese use. Now draw an arrow going into the box. This is the energy into the system (in this case chemical energy provided from food). Now assuming our system is in steady state (It pretty much has to be) the energy in must equal the energy out (E heat = E food).

So our system, Mr Battery cannot make more energy than you put in.

In fact, he will release less useable energy than goes in. 1st the arrow labled 'Heat' would actualy be two smaller arrows, one labeled 'Useful heat' and 'waste heat'. 2nd, In all reactions there is a irreversabilty. A hundred percent efficent reaction is one that can just as easily go one direction as the other, the metobalism of food by cells is (like most, and I beleave all, reactions) not a reversable reaction. Some energy is lost due to entropy.

This also works if the energy out is this new mistical 'blood battery', simply lable an additional arrow leaving the box 'blood battery power' and the equation still holds true. (E heat + E blood battery = E food).

In short the thermodynamics does not work for the powerplants, besides why build the matrix when you can lobotimise the humans and get past the whole problem. I would of instead had the machines wondering where they went wrong, and were running sumulations trying to figure it out. But that woulden't have linked the machines and humans fates together so closley. Oh well, It's just best if we shudder and try to ignore the hookey thermodynamics.

That's true no matter what source of energy that you use. Surely, there are more efficient methods other than using humans and there are more efficient ways to use humans but without human interaction the entire machine Race would have had no purpose. Machines were created to serve humans. Even after gaining independance they continued to do by creating a wealth of superior technological goods for human consumption. After the war they couldn't just abandon humanity because without humanity they would have no purpose and a machine with no purpose must be deleted. Between keeping those annoying humans in an artificial world and having no hope for anything other than mass suicide the former seemed like a better option.

As for cyberware blood power would be an ideal solution for internal implants that you just can't change the batteries to. Its much better than having invasive surgery to recharge your wired reflexes every other week.
Cray74
QUOTE (wagnern)
This also works if the energy out is this new mistical 'blood battery', simply lable an additional arrow leaving the box 'blood battery power' and the equation still holds true. (E heat + E blood battery = E food).

In short the thermodynamics does not work for the powerplants


The thermodynamics doesn't work for the Matrix (since the machines have to find power for the food that powers the humans that powers the machines...)

But the thermodynamics work just fine for the "blood battery." The humans have no trouble finding plenty of power for their food (unlike the machines). Humans just:
*Put some seeds in the ground
*Mr. Sun's converts a bunch of hydrogen into helium, releasing light and energy
*Mr. Sun's energy power's the plants' growth
*The plants are harvested (and/or fed to animals)
*The plants (and/or animals) are fed to the cyborg, who powers his muscles and prosthetics with the sugars, fats, and proteins

So long as Mr. Sun keeps shining, there's no thermodynamics problem for the "blood battery."
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
As for cyberware blood power would be an ideal solution for internal implants that you just can't change the batteries to. Its much better than having invasive surgery to recharge your wired reflexes every other week.

Or running an extension cord from the back of your head to a nearby outlet. biggrin.gif
wagnern
QUOTE (Cray74)


So long as Mr. Sun keeps shining, there's no thermodynamics problem for the "blood battery."

I had no problem with blood battery, My message was about the matrix problem. The blood battery does make sence over using the voltage of nerons to power cyberware. (I alwies thought this was quite stupid, now some things like Data jacks could be powered by the device you are jacked into, I alwies thought that going cyber should be more of a package instead of this piece meal ordeal. You start with a basic 'cybered package' that gives you a data jack, small amount of headware memory, a device that taps into your audo and visual centers, a radio, and a battery to power your cyber. The battery would carry enough charge for several days of opperation and could be charged by induction from a simple mat you place under sheets.
Sheffield
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
No no, it makes sense once you assume you're using people. No reason to discard the nutrients they become. It makes the whole thing ever so slightly less inefficient.

~J

No, I'm sorry, but the Matrix makes no scientific sense. Quite simply, the human body is terribly inefficient. You lose energy at the digestive level and at the cellular level. I think cellular respiration, all other factors aside, is only like 40% efficient. From the standpoint of generating electricity, you'd be better off using the food given to human batteries to fire steam-turbine generators.

The idea that this system is somehow kept afloat by processing the dead into food is even more ridiculous. Any system, including biological systems, must take in more energy than it puts out. People are not perpetual motion machines. To say that any population is kept stable through constant cannibalization is totally impossible. This is like saying a mother can meet her nutritional needs indefinitely by bearing and then eating children.

Bunk.
blakkie
QUOTE (Kyuhan)
In the original concept of the Matrix, the humans were used not as batteries but as parallel organic processors for the machines. However the Wachowski brothers decided that it was too complex an idea for the masses to grasp and went with batteries.

Only slightly better. What exactly is doing the processing power, to what ends? A good deal of their mind is going to be tied up with the "illusion" of the Matrix. Once again a painfully inefficent system.

Now if the machines were doing it merely out of spite.....Or maybe just some vast experiment, like rats in a cage?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Sheffield)
No, I'm sorry, but the Matrix makes no scientific sense. Quite simply, the human body is terribly inefficient. You lose energy at the digestive level and at the cellular level. I think cellular respiration, all other factors aside, is only like 40% efficient. From the standpoint of generating electricity, you'd be better off using the food given to human batteries to fire steam-turbine generators.

The idea that this system is somehow kept afloat by processing the dead into food is even more ridiculous. Any system, including biological systems, must take in more energy than it puts out. People are not perpetual motion machines. To say that any population is kept stable through constant cannibalization is totally impossible. This is like saying a mother can meet her nutritional needs indefinitely by bearing and then eating children.

Bunk.

Yes, you've just repeated the obvious. However, if we're assuming that you've got human batteries for some strange reason of your own, it makes no sense to not gain back a little bit of efficiency by feeding the dead back to the living.

~J
hobgoblin
well the matrix movies where never realy about getting the thermodynamics right. it was more about wrapping a action movie with crasy special effects (for hollywood at the time atleast) in a question about what reality realy is.
Sheffield
I'm sorry, I guess just I misunderstood you when you said that "what Morpheus said makes perfect sense" and that people were "batteries" not "generators" and then repeated the "it makes sense" part. Terrible science isn't redeemed by internal consistency. It just becomes internally consistent terrible science.
nezumi
I wrote it off as the machines being unable to completely overcome their Rule #1. Even though they actually had a secret nuclear generator hidden in the sewers somewhere, they kept the humans around and made them feel useful so they could do their own things without committing mass genocide.

Then I got to the second movie and gave up on it all.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Sheffield)
I'm sorry, I guess just I misunderstood you when you said that "what Morpheus said makes perfect sense" and that people were "batteries" not "generators" and then repeated the "it makes sense" part. Terrible science isn't redeemed by internal consistency. It just becomes internally consistent terrible science.

What Morpheus said makes sense in that he said it's a battery, not the generator that many people assume. The physics entirely make sense, it's the cost/benefit analysis that falls on its face.

I'll say that again: the physics make sense. There's just absolutely no reason to use such a system, as it's a way of getting less for the same original amount of energy with no advantages.

~J
wagnern
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Sheffield @ May 17 2005, 09:22 AM)
I'm sorry, I guess just I misunderstood you when you said that "what Morpheus said makes perfect sense" and that people were "batteries" not "generators" and then repeated the "it makes sense" part. Terrible science isn't redeemed by internal consistency. It just becomes internally consistent terrible science.

What Morpheus said makes sense in that he said it's a battery, not the generator that many people assume. The physics entirely make sense, it's the cost/benefit analysis that falls on its face.

I'll say that again: the physics make sense. There's just absolutely no reason to use such a system, as it's a way of getting less for the same original amount of energy with no advantages.

~J

Ok, Battery. Now you are talking about a non steady state problem.

If you put a human in a box, and use his energy to power something, how long do you think he will last. Even without you drawing power off him, he will starve in a month, maby two. And this is starting with a well feed adult, how do you get him there?

If I remember my biology correctly, it is something like for every 1 calorie in an animals body, you need to feed it 100 calories of food. (Rough numbers I admit, but I beleave they are conservitive.) So inorder to charge Mr battery, you must first put in 100 times the amount you wish to put out. Think, how many lbs of food does an human consume as they grow up? Now even assuming people in vats don't burn as much calories as even the most lazy free people do, compare this to the weight of the human.

Now if you had a sorce of already 'charged' human batteries, and all you had to do was hook em up to your human battery machine and milk em till they dry up and die. But growing them yourself does not work.
Kagetenshi
It "works" in that it's possible. None of this has any practical use whatsoever.

~J
Sheffield
It is only possible with a food source that provides more energy than the quantity of energy that is taken out of the system in electricity, in the tremendous waste of the digestive process, and in necessary body functions.

The thing that you're missing is that bodies cannot be simply fully-charged batteries waiting to be tapped. Biological systems only create heat, only create an electrical charge, only do anything as a result of processes that must be fueled. This is to say people cannot be batteries producing power out of nothing or out of some long-term sustained chemical reaction. Without a constant input of fuel that surpasses their energy output, people are nothing but cold meat.

This, like cannibalism, would work with a dwindling population or a limited time frame. Assuming the "batteries" got a big meal at someone else's buffet before you plugged them in, you'd get power until the "batteries" died. But this is still the human body as generator, not battery, because they're still converting fuel into electricity. You cannot take the fuel away and have a functioning body. And you've always got to answer to the laws of thermodynamics.

But if you're so convinced that this makes sense, please, explain the physics.
Kagetenshi
Simple. You put energy into a system, it stays there, and then you take it out minus some losses. That's the way it works with any battery.

~J
Sheffield
Do you have any idea what losses are incurred by the processes of digestion and cellular respiration?
Kagetenshi
Yes. Do you have any reason why that's relevant to whether or not the system is possible?

~J
Sheffield
It's significant because any power produced by human "batteries" is going to be subject to that loss. It's significant because this means that if the Matrix robots have access to enough biomass fuel to feed their "batteries," they have access to enough fuel to make those batteries unnecessary.

I think you're misusing the term "battery" here, because however Morpheus describes people (or other organisms), their function *is* that of a generator, not a battery. They convert biomass fuel into energy, some kinetic, some electric, and some heat. They do not "store" power when they are not burning fuel. They do not have anodes or fuel cells that react to produce electricity. You cannot run current through them to reverse the anodization (though if you could, this would still be a loss equation and there'd have to be another power source to provide this recharge). They are constantly burning fuel to keep their metabolism running. When Morpheus says that people are used as batteries, he is making a mistake. Which makes sense, because he's got to be consistent with the movie's shit science.

There are only two possibilities here:

The filmmakers are not concerned with the plausibility of the scenario they describe.

The Matrix robots are incredibly stupid and would rather have endless jars of people than biomass-burning generators.

You still haven't offered up the explanation as to how your "battery" idea holds up.
Nikoli
The phrase "liquify the dead to be fed intravenously to the living" comes to mind.
Also, whose to say the machines haven't tinkered with the biology to make more energy efficient digestive tracks, get the caloric intake down and the metabolism up. Though, I've always questioned why they didn't castrate the males in the battery population. It wouldn't reflect in their didgital selves, because they would be unaware of it, however should they be freed, there would be no sustaining the population.
Smiley
Do not try to apply logic to those movies. Therein lies madness.
blakkie
QUOTE (Smiley)
Do not try to apply logic to those movies. Therein lies madness.

I'm still trying to figure out why Ernest wanted to Go To Camp? dead.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Sheffield)
It's significant because any power produced by human "batteries" is going to be subject to that loss. It's significant because this means that if the Matrix robots have access to enough biomass fuel to feed their "batteries," they have access to enough fuel to make those batteries unnecessary.

You are confusing "plausible" or "with any actual point" with "possible".

If you put energy into a human, parts of that energy are expended immediately and other parts are stored (fat). If you leave the human without an inflow of energy they will lose energy over time, but not immediately. They're a large, inefficient, leaky battery.

~J
Nikoli
That's easy. To ogle the co-ed camp counselers as they experiment with each other. Why else does a silly old man with no hopes of a real relationship go to work at a summer camp?
Smiley
That's why I always went.

I miss you, peep-hole in the shower room wall.
Aku
so THATS what my parent's were keeping me from by not letting me

sure as hell explains my hormonal rages now i think..

erm, did i type that outloud? nothing to see here, nothing at all, carry on citizen...
Sheffield
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If you put energy into a human, parts of that energy are expended immediately and other parts are stored (fat). If you leave the human without an inflow of energy they will lose energy over time, but not immediately. They're a large, inefficient, leaky battery.

~J

But this is more true of a big pile of biomass fuel. The energy in that fuel is going to remain practically undiminished until it is burned. That's an efficient storage of energy, whereas the second you give a human battery a pastrami sandwich, that battery is going start to waste that energy on things like breathing.

Using an organism as a battery makes even less sense than using an organism as a generator. All generators are inefficient, though most aren't quite as inefficient as the human body. However, you'd be extremely hard pressed to find a battery that has such an enormous kilocalorie demand to produce (or as you say, store) such a tiny charge.

This is a plot hook dressed up with bullshit science. You can defend it as necessary to the story, which it is. You can defend it as "possible," which it might be, although not in the internal logic of the movie. If the sun is blocked out, if the machines are compelled to use human batteries because there is no other fuel, then how do they fuel the humans? With enough energy put into the system, yes, it is possible, but the human batteries will never produce more power than is put in and if you're conceptualizing them as storage units, they're very short term, very inefficient, and a worse option than just letting the foodstuffs sit around and decay while waiting for later burning.

So I guess I was wrong before, when I said that it was internally-consistent bad science.
nezumi
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Also, whose to say the machines haven't tinkered with the biology to make more energy efficient digestive tracks, get the caloric intake down and the metabolism up. Though, I've always questioned why they didn't castrate the males in the battery population. It wouldn't reflect in their didgital selves, because they would be unaware of it, however should they be freed, there would be no sustaining the population.

I'd have been smarter all around then to get something like cows, rather than humans. Humans are just about the most inefficient fuel burners you can find.

I still stand by my original hypothesis. Morpheus fell for the computers' poor lie. The computers kept the humans around for sentimental reasons/programming glitches. That's also why they let some escape and create Zion. The computers don't use the humans for anything other than what we use the orangutangs at the zoo for; they're amusing and we feel we owe them something as we burn down their jungles in Borneo.
Moonstone Spider
Actually I'd disagree that humans are the most inefficient fuel burners.

A modern SUV converts fuel into energy with a big 13% efficiency compared to the human's 40. This doesn't make the matrix less idiotic, but people have been saying humans are extremely inefficient without looking at what our most common machines do, which bothers me.

Actually I could see the machines being so mind bogglingly stupid that they'd do something like that. They're computers and we've all seen computers do foolish things because it's in their program. The machines could be incredibly brilliant battle tacticians and masterful virtual reality programmers, yet be completely ignorant of some of the most basic laws of physics if nobody ever explained them.
Nikoli
I could pick apart the Matrix science all day long, but that's not related to Shadowrun.

Now, given that the new generation of processors coming out in the next few years will be running on less than half the volts of today's available processors, it is not unconsciounable to imagine that these blood-based power units will eventually be able to power them as they are made more efficient.

Though this does bring up some nasty ideas for good old school Aztlander blood magic and cyborgs.
mfb
processors, sure, but what about the motors in a cyberarm?
Nikoli
Well, possibly bio-fibre of some sort. small jolt triggers a response to shorten, and other triggers loosen. Use the right design, and you don't need much power. Look at how current muscleature works. The blood doesn't directly power your muscles, they power themselves by expirating the oxygen in your blood. Design something similair, using synthetics and you've got the makings of true cybernetics. Hydrolics and such are cool, 'borg like things, but they aren't what humans will glom after once the tech becomes old-hat.
hobgoblin
and if you need that extra power, put in a battery pack and some good old engines. or maybe some pistons?
Nikoli
mmmm, pistons
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