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> Why all the hate?
Nerbert
post May 20 2005, 12:02 AM
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I'm confused. Because, the way people are talking, dice mechanics and nouns are all that ever made the Shadowrun games stand on its own two feet.

I've read the FAQs, I happen to like the direction they're going. Other people don't. Thats ok. But people, FANPRO is not going to publish crap. No company starts out its day trying to alienate its dedicated consumer fan base.

Does it seem like no one over there is listening to you? Maybe. Maybe they're too busy busting their butt to make a great game?

I don't care if they call riggers/deckers "Hackers" its just a noun. Same with "Technomancers". I mean, you're talking about a game with orcs and trolls and happy fairies intermingling with cyber punk. And you think the word Technomancer is silly! This is a silly game. The books are laden with dumb jokes, humorous quips and a comical presentation. This is a game that takes the traditional images, the stereotypes, and just blows them out of the water. Half the fun is the hokey window dressing that hides the deep and abiding respect for the product.

And the people bothered with the dice! Its so insane. Do you really think they're going to completely trash the ability to act tactically in a combat situation? They may not have "Combat Pools" (uh oh, more nouns, everyone prepare some poo to fling) as such, but I'm confident that they know what makes combat fun, and I'm confident that they're not going to completely ruin it somehow, "accidently".

So much cynicism. No wonder people don't have any respect for roleplayers.
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Wounded Ronin
post May 20 2005, 12:14 AM
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I thought that lack of respect for role players was because of d20. :3
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Ellery
post May 20 2005, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE
The way people are talking, dice mechanics and nouns are all that ever made the Shadowrun games stand on its own two feet.
People might be less upset if there was some feedback that indicated that the developers understood that dice mechanics do matter. Not just because they can be complicated and scare people away, but also because they can give stupid outcomes and ruin your game, or make three quarters of your characters unplayable.

Mechanics are important because they define the reality of the game, and people form attachments to their characters who live within that reality. Change reality too much, and they no longer have a place to exist.

"Hi, we're changing reality so your favorite people don't exist! And neither do your favorite tactics! And by the way, it doesn't matter!" That's not much fun to hear.

QUOTE
But people, FANPRO is not going to publish crap. No company starts out its day trying to alienate its dedicated consumer fan base.
Companies regularly do misjudge their fan base and alienate it. I'd think that some of the squawking is an indication that maybe FanPro is misjudging some of its fans. They've also put out material of questionable quality before--and here, they can't even go on past experience because they're really starting from scratch. I don't think FanPro has put out any rules-heavy SR books since it took over from FASA. Granted, most of the people are the same, but the editorial process matters a lot.

I like the quality of the fiction that's come out under FanPro. The rules have been mostly adequate. The FAQ has been questionable.

When it's not a sure thing, I look to the FAQ for reassurance that they're going in the right direction, or at least understand what the issues are.

QUOTE
And the people bothered with the dice! Its so insane. Do you really think they're going to completely trash the ability to act tactically in a combat situation? I'm confident that they know what makes combat fun, and I'm confident that they're not going to completely ruin it somehow, "accidently".
What is the basis for your confidence?
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Kagetenshi
post May 20 2005, 01:13 AM
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QUOTE (Nerbert)
But people, FANPRO is not going to publish crap. No company starts out its day trying to alienate its dedicated consumer fan base.

The second statement does not in any way imply the first.

~J
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Charon
post May 20 2005, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE (Ellery @ May 19 2005, 07:32 PM)
Mechanics are important because they define the reality of the game, and people form attachments to their characters who live within that reality.  Change reality too much, and they no longer have a place to exist.

"Hi, we're changing reality so your favorite people don't exist!  And neither do your favorite tactics!  And by the way, it doesn't matter!"  That's not much fun to hear.

It's funny, because I usually have to bend SR3's rule to make them fit an acceptable reality. What prevents a PC from using a sniper rifle like an assault rifle? From piling on more armor for a social occasion than most characters from any other medium do when going in a fight?

I'm not very nervous about the designer ruining reality, because frankly the bar is not that high. It's adequate for the genre, but this is hardly a simulationist game. To prevent the PC from adopting all kind of behaviors that work by the rule but make little to no sense from a realistic and/or cinematic point of view, you have to reach an understanding with the players or downright use houserules (I prefer the first approach).

I'm not quite certain how SR4 will stand in that regards, but If they can maintain the same degree of realism (not that hard) while simplifiying the rules overall, I'll be pretty damn happy.
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Kagetenshi
post May 20 2005, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (Charon)
What prevents a PC from using a sniper rifle like an assault rifle?

The lack of ability for it to have a burst- or full-automatic mode.
QUOTE
From piling on more armor for a social occasion than most characters from any other medium do when going in a fight?

Social modifiers for armor and concealability rules, as well as reductions to combat pool and quickness-linked stats.

~J
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BookWyrm
post May 20 2005, 01:38 AM
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What all the hate & distrust comes from is typically when a popular/well-selling RPG is either bought out by an upstarting company & completely rewritten, without reguard or feedback from it's initial customer base, and when some RPGs are "one-shot wonders", the comany puts out a core rulebook, maybe one or two sourcebooks, then mysteriously vanishes. Nobody wants to shell out the same amount or more cash for a system that they already know & can work with.

For someone like me, with the original SR1, it was always the Magick system that caught my interest. Mages/Shamans had to pay a price for weilding such power, and that appealed to me. SR took a bold step with merging a Cyberpunk theme & bringing in magic to the genre. Even with the dissolution of FASA, SR is still imminently fascinating to me.
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Ellery
post May 20 2005, 01:41 AM
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Social modifiers don't need to be modifers to dice, either: "People look at your bulky jacket and thick pants with a quick glance, then turn away to talk to someone else. Someone who knows what dress casual means. Someone who looks like fun."

Plus, in SR3 there is a variety of nice clothing that has a decent amount of armor, and I don't think it's a problem IC if runners wear that (unless they're going to the beach or something).
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Charon
post May 20 2005, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 19 2005, 08:29 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ May 19 2005, 08:24 PM)
What prevents a PC from using a sniper rifle like an assault rifle?

The lack of ability for it to have a burst- or full-automatic mode.


"Oh no, my sniper rifle can't do burst fire. I so like the noise of a burst fire. Guess I'll have to live with 14S, less recoil and a much longer range."

At first, the only thing preventing players from using Sniper rifle in an assault rifle role is price and availability. Then, it's an undertsanding between GM and player that it would be silly. But by the rules, it works very well.

QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
From piling on more armor for a social occasion than most characters from any other medium do when going in a fight?

Social modifiers for armor and concealability rules, as well as reductions to combat pool and quickness-linked stats.


Heard of FFBA and Armante?

If you don't watch it, ballistic 6 becomes bare minimum at social event.
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mfb
post May 20 2005, 01:45 AM
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and even then, you can just make those guys swim along the shore "to watch out for incoming hostiles from the sea". that way, they don't embarrass you while the grown-ups are talking.

...not that i'd ever do that.

charon, the point of an AR isn't damage, it's rate of fire. you can't shoot four guys in one action with a sniper rifle. if it's damage you want, get a heavy pistol.
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Typhon
post May 20 2005, 01:49 AM
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I think the Social Pentalty for armor stems from the fact when you put on the Armored jacket , Armored Clothing , FFBA3 , and the Armored Duster no one will take you seriously 'cause you look like the fraggin Michelin man
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Charon
post May 20 2005, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
you can't shoot four guys in one action with a sniper rifle. if it's damage you want, get a heavy pistol.

You can't do that in Shadowrun either, mfb. The TN on the last target would be +6 plus recoil...
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Ellery
post May 20 2005, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE
Heard of FFBA and Armante?

If you don't watch it, ballistic 6 becomes bare minimum at social event.
What's wrong with that? If I was a professional assassin, and there were lightweight, comfortable, non-obvious ballistically armored clothing I could wear, I'd wear it all the time.
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Kagetenshi
post May 20 2005, 01:55 AM
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QUOTE (Charon)
"Oh no, my sniper rifle can't do burst fire. I so like the noise of a burst fire. Guess I'll have to live with 14S, less recoil and a much longer range."

And the total lack of suppressive fire, and a tiny magazine unless your GM allows a custom-built monstrosity…
QUOTE (Charon)
Heard of FFBA and Armante? 

If you don't watch it, ballistic 6 becomes bare minimum at social event.

And the problem with this is? Armante isn't cheap, and FFBA full-body will be noticeable at any social event that doesn't involve full-body coverage (formal events will be fine, beach events or casual summer events you're fucked).

~J
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Charon
post May 20 2005, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE (Ellery)
QUOTE
Heard of FFBA and Armante?

If you don't watch it, ballistic 6 becomes bare minimum at social event.
What's wrong with that? If I was a professional assassin, and there were lightweight, comfortable, non-obvious ballistically armored clothing I could wear, I'd wear it all the time.

The problem is that should I decide do a cocktail party shootout, I got to bring just as much artillery to the table as I would for a street war or else the bullets will bounce off the Chanel dresses and Armani vests of my players. Well, it would if my PCs piled on armor. We have a simple undertsanding ; Never stack armor on and I won't either.

I've never heard of real life undercover agents carrying enough kevlar to stop an assault rifle and I've never seen movie characters do it either in the spy genre. It's an affectation that is specific to Shadowrun. It lacks style and doesn't compensate with increased realism as far as I'm concerned.
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Charon
post May 20 2005, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 19 2005, 08:55 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ May 19 2005, 08:45 PM)
"Oh no, my sniper rifle can't do burst fire.  I so like the noise of a burst fire.  Guess I'll have to live with 14S, less recoil and a much longer range."

And the total lack of suppressive fire, and a tiny magazine unless your GM allows a custom-built monstrosity…

This is Shadowrun. Suprressive fire is worth shit against serious opposition. You ever tried?

As for the clip, at 3 bullet a burst, assault rifle do not contain that much more burst than a Walther MA-2100 has bullet. Plus, all things being equal, you will kill your target in one bullet with a sniper more often than you will kill him in one burst.

Look, I know why you shouldn't be using a sniper rifle instead of an assault rifle. But these reasons are not to be found in the rules.

Like for the armor, my solution is simply to ask my players not to do it.
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Kagetenshi
post May 20 2005, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE (Charon)
This is Shadowrun. Suprressive fire is worth shit against serious opposition. You ever tried?

I have, several times and with great effectiveness. Perhaps you have not?

~J
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Shadow
post May 20 2005, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE (Ellery)
QUOTE
Heard of FFBA and Armante?

If you don't watch it, ballistic 6 becomes bare minimum at social event.
What's wrong with that? If I was a professional assassin, and there were lightweight, comfortable, non-obvious ballistically armored clothing I could wear, I'd wear it all the time.

So you want to look like a professional assasin at every party you go to?

Social ramifications aside, if you wear a bunbch of armor someone is going to call Lonestar. And you are going to go to jail.

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Charon
post May 20 2005, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 19 2005, 09:17 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ May 19 2005, 09:11 PM)
This is Shadowrun.  Suprressive fire is worth shit against serious opposition.  You ever tried?

I have, several times and with great effectiveness. Perhaps you have not?

~J

If your opponents are in the open, it's better to just shoot them outright.

If you are suppressing an area, it better be very focused or your hail of bullet is very easy to dodge. You need at least 3 bullet per meters.

If there are more than 3 bullets supressing an area in which a character wants to pop up in order to shoot, he should just ignore it.

The attacker can't use combat pool and has a +2 TN penalty. Let's say you have a skill of 6 and are trying to supress attacker hidden behind a car in short range. When they change position, they still have cover. You end up with a TN of 10, 8 with smartlink. You have 40% odds of failing outright. If you do hit the target, he has to resist only against the damage code of a single bullet. A joke if it's a SMG, not that hard if it's an AR. And then he shoots the attacker good.

It's only good against low body and lightly armored mooks.
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scoundrel
post May 20 2005, 02:56 AM
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I think the key difference between shooting someone with an assault rifle versus shooting them with a sniper rifle lies in the target number to dodge the attack.
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Kagetenshi
post May 20 2005, 03:00 AM
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Charon: now try suppressing four attackers instead of just one, and compare to splitting normal autofire into bursts.

~J
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post May 20 2005, 03:11 AM
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QUOTE (Nerbert @ May 19 2005, 06:02 PM)
I've read the FAQs, I happen to like the direction they're going.  Other people don't.  Thats ok.  But people, FANPRO is not going to publish crap.  No company starts out its day trying to alienate its dedicated consumer fan base.

No, they don't. However, that's often times what happens, often through the concerted efforts of work which comes from the best of intentions.

That said, there is no hate here. Maybe between some posters as of late, but from my perspective it is based on the exact opposite. I don't want this game to suck. But apparently no one seems to be able to understand anything I say here and misconstrues it as hatred or criticism, or something else. If that's the case, then so be it. But at the same time, I'm not going to sit here and accept the accusations and name-calling because I've been misunderstood.

QUOTE (Nerbert)
This is a silly game.

No, it isn't. If it was, I wouldn't spend hours and hours every day reading and writing and responding to posts just on DS. When I had more time, six months ago, I spent almost all my waking time doing that. No, it's not just a silly game. Not to me.

QUOTE
And the people bothered with the dice!  Its so insane.  Do you really think they're going to completely trash the ability to act tactically in a combat situation?  They may not have "Combat Pools" (uh oh, more nouns, everyone prepare some poo to fling) as such, but I'm confident that they know what makes combat fun, and I'm confident that they're not going to completely ruin it somehow, "accidently".

Like I said, you just don't get it. And there is nothing I can do short of sitting down, taking an entire afternoon, and charting out everything I think to fully explain it. And even if I did, and I won't ever do it again, it would never be understood because of a fault in my presentation skills. All I can say is, for me personally, you have no idea what you're talking about.

QUOTE (BookWyrm)
What all the hate & distrust comes from is typically when a popular/well-selling RPG is either bought out by an upstarting company & completely rewritten, without reguard or feedback from it's initial customer base, and when some RPGs are "one-shot wonders", the comany puts out a core rulebook, maybe one or two sourcebooks, then mysteriously vanishes. Nobody wants to shell out the same amount or more cash for a system that they already know & can work with.

Or maybe the hate is all in your head.

The lack of trust is inherent. In a game where the PCs can't trust anyone, why would you expect or even ask the players and GMs to trust anyone?
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scoundrel
post May 20 2005, 03:11 AM
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Suppressive fire is also awesome for shooting invisible people. :vegm:
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Wounded Ronin
post May 20 2005, 03:21 AM
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In terms of HYPER REALISM OF DRAMA, using a "sniper rifle" where you might also use an assault rifle isn't necessarily bad. It's just sort of retro. A M1 Garand has more in common with a "sniper rifle" than an "assault rifle" but that dosen't mean you can't use the M1 in non-sniper situations.

The problem arises, of course, with super penalty-free SR scopes...



Also, armor layering annoys me.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post May 20 2005, 03:22 AM
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Wow, such an incredibly rapid devolution into an OT discussion that's been beaten into the ground multiple times in the appropriate forum. I'm impressed.
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