I'm confused. Because, the way people are talking, dice mechanics and nouns are all that ever made the Shadowrun games stand on its own two feet.
I've read the FAQs, I happen to like the direction they're going. Other people don't. Thats ok. But people, FANPRO is not going to publish crap. No company starts out its day trying to alienate its dedicated consumer fan base.
Does it seem like no one over there is listening to you? Maybe. Maybe they're too busy busting their butt to make a great game?
I don't care if they call riggers/deckers "Hackers" its just a noun. Same with "Technomancers". I mean, you're talking about a game with orcs and trolls and happy fairies intermingling with cyber punk. And you think the word Technomancer is silly! This is a silly game. The books are laden with dumb jokes, humorous quips and a comical presentation. This is a game that takes the traditional images, the stereotypes, and just blows them out of the water. Half the fun is the hokey window dressing that hides the deep and abiding respect for the product.
And the people bothered with the dice! Its so insane. Do you really think they're going to completely trash the ability to act tactically in a combat situation? They may not have "Combat Pools" (uh oh, more nouns, everyone prepare some poo to fling) as such, but I'm confident that they know what makes combat fun, and I'm confident that they're not going to completely ruin it somehow, "accidently".
So much cynicism. No wonder people don't have any respect for roleplayers.
Full Version: Why all the hate?
I thought that lack of respect for role players was because of d20. :3
| QUOTE |
| The way people are talking, dice mechanics and nouns are all that ever made the Shadowrun games stand on its own two feet. |
People might be less upset if there was some feedback that indicated that the developers understood that dice mechanics do matter. Not just because they can be complicated and scare people away, but also because they can give stupid outcomes and ruin your game, or make three quarters of your characters unplayable.
Mechanics are important because they define the reality of the game, and people form attachments to their characters who live within that reality. Change reality too much, and they no longer have a place to exist.
"Hi, we're changing reality so your favorite people don't exist! And neither do your favorite tactics! And by the way, it doesn't matter!" That's not much fun to hear.
Mechanics are important because they define the reality of the game, and people form attachments to their characters who live within that reality. Change reality too much, and they no longer have a place to exist.
"Hi, we're changing reality so your favorite people don't exist! And neither do your favorite tactics! And by the way, it doesn't matter!" That's not much fun to hear.
| QUOTE |
| But people, FANPRO is not going to publish crap. No company starts out its day trying to alienate its dedicated consumer fan base. |
Companies regularly do misjudge their fan base and alienate it. I'd think that some of the squawking is an indication that maybe FanPro is misjudging some of its fans. They've also put out material of questionable quality before--and here, they can't even go on past experience because they're really starting from scratch. I don't think FanPro has put out any rules-heavy SR books since it took over from FASA. Granted, most of the people are the same, but the editorial process matters a lot.
I like the quality of the fiction that's come out under FanPro. The rules have been mostly adequate. The FAQ has been questionable.
When it's not a sure thing, I look to the FAQ for reassurance that they're going in the right direction, or at least understand what the issues are.
I like the quality of the fiction that's come out under FanPro. The rules have been mostly adequate. The FAQ has been questionable.
When it's not a sure thing, I look to the FAQ for reassurance that they're going in the right direction, or at least understand what the issues are.
| QUOTE |
| And the people bothered with the dice! Its so insane. Do you really think they're going to completely trash the ability to act tactically in a combat situation? I'm confident that they know what makes combat fun, and I'm confident that they're not going to completely ruin it somehow, "accidently". |
What is the basis for your confidence?
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| But people, FANPRO is not going to publish crap. No company starts out its day trying to alienate its dedicated consumer fan base. |
The second statement does not in any way imply the first.
~J
| QUOTE (Ellery @ May 19 2005, 07:32 PM) |
| Mechanics are important because they define the reality of the game, and people form attachments to their characters who live within that reality. Change reality too much, and they no longer have a place to exist. "Hi, we're changing reality so your favorite people don't exist! And neither do your favorite tactics! And by the way, it doesn't matter!" That's not much fun to hear. |
It's funny, because I usually have to bend SR3's rule to make them fit an acceptable reality. What prevents a PC from using a sniper rifle like an assault rifle? From piling on more armor for a social occasion than most characters from any other medium do when going in a fight?
I'm not very nervous about the designer ruining reality, because frankly the bar is not that high. It's adequate for the genre, but this is hardly a simulationist game. To prevent the PC from adopting all kind of behaviors that work by the rule but make little to no sense from a realistic and/or cinematic point of view, you have to reach an understanding with the players or downright use houserules (I prefer the first approach).
I'm not quite certain how SR4 will stand in that regards, but If they can maintain the same degree of realism (not that hard) while simplifiying the rules overall, I'll be pretty damn happy.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| What prevents a PC from using a sniper rifle like an assault rifle? |
The lack of ability for it to have a burst- or full-automatic mode.
| QUOTE |
| From piling on more armor for a social occasion than most characters from any other medium do when going in a fight? |
Social modifiers for armor and concealability rules, as well as reductions to combat pool and quickness-linked stats.
~J
What all the hate & distrust comes from is typically when a popular/well-selling RPG is either bought out by an upstarting company & completely rewritten, without reguard or feedback from it's initial customer base, and when some RPGs are "one-shot wonders", the comany puts out a core rulebook, maybe one or two sourcebooks, then mysteriously vanishes. Nobody wants to shell out the same amount or more cash for a system that they already know & can work with.
For someone like me, with the original SR1, it was always the Magick system that caught my interest. Mages/Shamans had to pay a price for weilding such power, and that appealed to me. SR took a bold step with merging a Cyberpunk theme & bringing in magic to the genre. Even with the dissolution of FASA, SR is still imminently fascinating to me.
For someone like me, with the original SR1, it was always the Magick system that caught my interest. Mages/Shamans had to pay a price for weilding such power, and that appealed to me. SR took a bold step with merging a Cyberpunk theme & bringing in magic to the genre. Even with the dissolution of FASA, SR is still imminently fascinating to me.
Social modifiers don't need to be modifers to dice, either: "People look at your bulky jacket and thick pants with a quick glance, then turn away to talk to someone else. Someone who knows what dress casual means. Someone who looks like fun."
Plus, in SR3 there is a variety of nice clothing that has a decent amount of armor, and I don't think it's a problem IC if runners wear that (unless they're going to the beach or something).
Plus, in SR3 there is a variety of nice clothing that has a decent amount of armor, and I don't think it's a problem IC if runners wear that (unless they're going to the beach or something).
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 19 2005, 08:29 PM) | ||
The lack of ability for it to have a burst- or full-automatic mode. |
"Oh no, my sniper rifle can't do burst fire. I so like the noise of a burst fire. Guess I'll have to live with 14S, less recoil and a much longer range."
At first, the only thing preventing players from using Sniper rifle in an assault rifle role is price and availability. Then, it's an undertsanding between GM and player that it would be silly. But by the rules, it works very well.
| QUOTE (Charon) | ||
Social modifiers for armor and concealability rules, as well as reductions to combat pool and quickness-linked stats. |
Heard of FFBA and Armante?
If you don't watch it, ballistic 6 becomes bare minimum at social event.
and even then, you can just make those guys swim along the shore "to watch out for incoming hostiles from the sea". that way, they don't embarrass you while the grown-ups are talking.
...not that i'd ever do that.
charon, the point of an AR isn't damage, it's rate of fire. you can't shoot four guys in one action with a sniper rifle. if it's damage you want, get a heavy pistol.
...not that i'd ever do that.
charon, the point of an AR isn't damage, it's rate of fire. you can't shoot four guys in one action with a sniper rifle. if it's damage you want, get a heavy pistol.
I think the Social Pentalty for armor stems from the fact when you put on the Armored jacket , Armored Clothing , FFBA3 , and the Armored Duster no one will take you seriously 'cause you look like the fraggin Michelin man
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you can't shoot four guys in one action with a sniper rifle. if it's damage you want, get a heavy pistol. |
You can't do that in Shadowrun either, mfb. The TN on the last target would be +6 plus recoil...
| QUOTE |
| Heard of FFBA and Armante? If you don't watch it, ballistic 6 becomes bare minimum at social event. |
What's wrong with that? If I was a professional assassin, and there were lightweight, comfortable, non-obvious ballistically armored clothing I could wear, I'd wear it all the time.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| "Oh no, my sniper rifle can't do burst fire. I so like the noise of a burst fire. Guess I'll have to live with 14S, less recoil and a much longer range." |
And the total lack of suppressive fire, and a tiny magazine unless your GM allows a custom-built monstrosity…
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| Heard of FFBA and Armante? If you don't watch it, ballistic 6 becomes bare minimum at social event. |
And the problem with this is? Armante isn't cheap, and FFBA full-body will be noticeable at any social event that doesn't involve full-body coverage (formal events will be fine, beach events or casual summer events you're fucked).
~J
| QUOTE (Ellery) | ||
What's wrong with that? If I was a professional assassin, and there were lightweight, comfortable, non-obvious ballistically armored clothing I could wear, I'd wear it all the time. |
The problem is that should I decide do a cocktail party shootout, I got to bring just as much artillery to the table as I would for a street war or else the bullets will bounce off the Chanel dresses and Armani vests of my players. Well, it would if my PCs piled on armor. We have a simple undertsanding ; Never stack armor on and I won't either.
I've never heard of real life undercover agents carrying enough kevlar to stop an assault rifle and I've never seen movie characters do it either in the spy genre. It's an affectation that is specific to Shadowrun. It lacks style and doesn't compensate with increased realism as far as I'm concerned.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 19 2005, 08:55 PM) | ||
And the total lack of suppressive fire, and a tiny magazine unless your GM allows a custom-built monstrosity… |
This is Shadowrun. Suprressive fire is worth shit against serious opposition. You ever tried?
As for the clip, at 3 bullet a burst, assault rifle do not contain that much more burst than a Walther MA-2100 has bullet. Plus, all things being equal, you will kill your target in one bullet with a sniper more often than you will kill him in one burst.
Look, I know why you shouldn't be using a sniper rifle instead of an assault rifle. But these reasons are not to be found in the rules.
Like for the armor, my solution is simply to ask my players not to do it.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| This is Shadowrun. Suprressive fire is worth shit against serious opposition. You ever tried? |
I have, several times and with great effectiveness. Perhaps you have not?
~J
| QUOTE (Ellery) | ||
What's wrong with that? If I was a professional assassin, and there were lightweight, comfortable, non-obvious ballistically armored clothing I could wear, I'd wear it all the time. |
So you want to look like a professional assasin at every party you go to?
Social ramifications aside, if you wear a bunbch of armor someone is going to call Lonestar. And you are going to go to jail.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 19 2005, 09:17 PM) | ||
I have, several times and with great effectiveness. Perhaps you have not? ~J |
If your opponents are in the open, it's better to just shoot them outright.
If you are suppressing an area, it better be very focused or your hail of bullet is very easy to dodge. You need at least 3 bullet per meters.
If there are more than 3 bullets supressing an area in which a character wants to pop up in order to shoot, he should just ignore it.
The attacker can't use combat pool and has a +2 TN penalty. Let's say you have a skill of 6 and are trying to supress attacker hidden behind a car in short range. When they change position, they still have cover. You end up with a TN of 10, 8 with smartlink. You have 40% odds of failing outright. If you do hit the target, he has to resist only against the damage code of a single bullet. A joke if it's a SMG, not that hard if it's an AR. And then he shoots the attacker good.
It's only good against low body and lightly armored mooks.
I think the key difference between shooting someone with an assault rifle versus shooting them with a sniper rifle lies in the target number to dodge the attack.
Charon: now try suppressing four attackers instead of just one, and compare to splitting normal autofire into bursts.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Nerbert @ May 19 2005, 06:02 PM) |
| I've read the FAQs, I happen to like the direction they're going. Other people don't. Thats ok. But people, FANPRO is not going to publish crap. No company starts out its day trying to alienate its dedicated consumer fan base. |
No, they don't. However, that's often times what happens, often through the concerted efforts of work which comes from the best of intentions.
That said, there is no hate here. Maybe between some posters as of late, but from my perspective it is based on the exact opposite. I don't want this game to suck. But apparently no one seems to be able to understand anything I say here and misconstrues it as hatred or criticism, or something else. If that's the case, then so be it. But at the same time, I'm not going to sit here and accept the accusations and name-calling because I've been misunderstood.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| This is a silly game. |
No, it isn't. If it was, I wouldn't spend hours and hours every day reading and writing and responding to posts just on DS. When I had more time, six months ago, I spent almost all my waking time doing that. No, it's not just a silly game. Not to me.
| QUOTE |
| And the people bothered with the dice! Its so insane. Do you really think they're going to completely trash the ability to act tactically in a combat situation? They may not have "Combat Pools" (uh oh, more nouns, everyone prepare some poo to fling) as such, but I'm confident that they know what makes combat fun, and I'm confident that they're not going to completely ruin it somehow, "accidently". |
Like I said, you just don't get it. And there is nothing I can do short of sitting down, taking an entire afternoon, and charting out everything I think to fully explain it. And even if I did, and I won't ever do it again, it would never be understood because of a fault in my presentation skills. All I can say is, for me personally, you have no idea what you're talking about.
| QUOTE (BookWyrm) |
| What all the hate & distrust comes from is typically when a popular/well-selling RPG is either bought out by an upstarting company & completely rewritten, without reguard or feedback from it's initial customer base, and when some RPGs are "one-shot wonders", the comany puts out a core rulebook, maybe one or two sourcebooks, then mysteriously vanishes. Nobody wants to shell out the same amount or more cash for a system that they already know & can work with. |
Or maybe the hate is all in your head.
The lack of trust is inherent. In a game where the PCs can't trust anyone, why would you expect or even ask the players and GMs to trust anyone?
Suppressive fire is also awesome for shooting invisible people. 
In terms of HYPER REALISM OF DRAMA, using a "sniper rifle" where you might also use an assault rifle isn't necessarily bad. It's just sort of retro. A M1 Garand has more in common with a "sniper rifle" than an "assault rifle" but that dosen't mean you can't use the M1 in non-sniper situations.
The problem arises, of course, with super penalty-free SR scopes...
Also, armor layering annoys me.
The problem arises, of course, with super penalty-free SR scopes...
Also, armor layering annoys me.
Wow, such an incredibly rapid devolution into an OT discussion that's been beaten into the ground multiple times in the appropriate forum. I'm impressed.
It's because we all secretly desire M1s and manly .30-.06 ammunition.
| QUOTE (BookWyrm) |
| What all the hate & distrust comes from is typically when a popular/well-selling RPG is either bought out ... Nobody wants to shell out the same amount or more cash for a system that they already know & can work with. |
I think this, edited by me, sums up what is generating so much ire. Most people can work with the rules and would liek some fine tuning, but the massive amount of changes being brought in for 4th ed seem to be change solely for the point of change. so people who have already shelled out money for multiple books for a system that works fine for them, seem to be expected to do that all over again.
Maybe they'd give me trade in value for my Street Samurai Catalogue, Fields of Fire and Cannon Companion in return for their latest edition of "the gun book."
Yes there are some clunkers out there. Decking in general has always be a problem. The 2nd Ed Rigger Black Book is infamous for its content and bad editing but the whole sale scrapping of the system which has been working successfully since 1989 seems to completely disregard the past, the traditions that drew people to the game and the opinions of those peopel who've kept the game going for those years, bordering on decades.
There is an old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it." With that in mind, it is hard to view such whole sale, needless, slaughter of the entire system as anything other than a money grab by the publishers, foisted on the back of their fans. I do not see how that can do anything but generate resentment.
I don't even mind shelling out money for a book that's better. What's especially annoying is when said book is very likely to be worse because everything is different and there hasn't been fifteen years of playtesting to figure out where the bugs are.
Is it hatred? Nah. Irritation? Sure. I like SR. I want it to like SR4 more, not less.
Is it hatred? Nah. Irritation? Sure. I like SR. I want it to like SR4 more, not less.
| QUOTE |
| There is an old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it." With that in mind, it is hard to view such whole sale, needless, slaughter of the entire system as anything other than a money grab by the publishers, foisted on the back of their fans. |
Well, it is a money grab, in that they've clearly stated that it's to try to expand their market. But it's not just a money grab foisted on the backs of their fans; if they were doing that, they'd change just barely enough so everyone had to buy all new books, but they had to do a minimum amount of work.
I suspect that they're honestly expecting that their existing fans will like the new system because, I dunno, it's got the Shadowrun logo on it or something. Or we just love everything they put out. Or something. And the others who didn't like it before will like it because it's like nWoD, or simpler than d20, or something. I have little trouble believing that there are good intentions there somewhere.
But good intentions aren't enough. You know, after all, what the road to hell is paved with.
I suspect that they're honestly expecting that their existing fans will like the new system because, I dunno, it's got the Shadowrun logo on it or something. Or we just love everything they put out. Or something. And the others who didn't like it before will like it because it's like nWoD, or simpler than d20, or something. I have little trouble believing that there are good intentions there somewhere.
But good intentions aren't enough. You know, after all, what the road to hell is paved with.
| QUOTE (Shadow) | ||
So you want to look like a professional assasin at every party you go to? |
Please read the text that I have bolded in my original quote. And read CC where it talks about Armani clothing--what it looks like, the intended market, etc..
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| This is Shadowrun. Suprressive fire is worth shit against serious opposition. You ever tried? |
Hahahahahahah.
MFB! MFB! Tell him about Ounces and Tons. That's my favorite story. Hahahahahahahahah.
suppressive fire used the way it's supposed to be used--ie, with an HMG--is worth quite a bit. it did passing well against the... what was it, 12? more? a fuckton, anyway, of force 4-5 (as i recall) bug spirits that tried to rush us. those my troll, Tons, didn't splatter outright were picked off one at a time by the assault rifle adept, Ounces.
it was horror and despair. wonder why that game never got further than that first fight...
at any rate. suppressive fire is not worthless at all, even with a machine pistol--it eats lots of CP fairly quickly, and you've got a halfway decent chance of slapping a number of enemies with L or M wounds. it's not a one-shot kill, but then, it's not supposed to be.
this lesson in SR3 tactics was brought to you by the letter 4.
it was horror and despair. wonder why that game never got further than that first fight...
at any rate. suppressive fire is not worthless at all, even with a machine pistol--it eats lots of CP fairly quickly, and you've got a halfway decent chance of slapping a number of enemies with L or M wounds. it's not a one-shot kill, but then, it's not supposed to be.
this lesson in SR3 tactics was brought to you by the letter 4.
Not that it matters, since CP is on the way out the door, etc, etc. But saying "suppressive fire is worthless" is like saying "putting bees in my mouth is fun." In your opinion the sentence is true, but that does not make it so.
... and the number C
| QUOTE |
| I'm confused. Because, the way people are talking, dice mechanics and nouns are all that ever made the Shadowrun games stand on its own two feet. |
Mechanics in general help define the feel of a game. For one thing, they dictate the lethality level, which in turn influences playing style. Shadowrun's current mechanics encourage players to think carefully and select their options, instead of simply saying "I try to hit him again".
| QUOTE |
| But people, FANPRO is not going to publish crap. No company starts out its day trying to alienate its dedicated consumer fan base. |
So? None of the hordes of D20 companies that emerged and flamed out were trying to die a horrible and painful death. Just because it's a game company does not ensure quality product.
| QUOTE |
| Does it seem like no one over there is listening to you? Maybe. Maybe they're too busy busting their butt to make a great game? |
There are several problems, here. First of all, even though there's a need for secrecy, you can and should still give your fan base encouraging information. If you need an example, look at Revenge of the Sith. It was preceded by a huge marketing campaign, which focused on the coolest parts of Star Wars-- wookies and lightsaber battles. If it had been advertised as a romance between Anakin and Padme, with the clunky chemistry the two actors have, the movie wouldn't have been recieved so favorably. Even if they're busy, they need to make the time to market adequately.
Second, it seems awfully like the parts of the game we like are getting removed, while parts we could do without are being included or left in. The splitting of attributes, for example: if they're trying to streamline and simplify the rules, why are they *adding* new attributes?
The third is the fact that, to date, Fanpro doesn't have the most sterling record with new Shadowrun crunch product. The worldbooks have been well-recieved, but the FAQ is a mess. And there are certain people on the writing crew who have less than stellar reputations with rules-writing: I like Jon Szetzo personally, but he's responsible for the disaster that is the rigger rules, and he's one of the primary writers for a *simpler* rules system?
Add to this the natural resistance to change to anything beloved, and you can see why there's such an outcry.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Add to this the natural resistance to change to anything beloved, and you can see why there's such an outcry. |
Or you can not see it, not understand it, and just ask people what they're so upset about over and over again, instead of very clearly learning what people are upset about by just reading the posts wherein they're upset.
I don't see where the confusion comes in. If you can pick up on the fact there's "so much hate," why can't you understand the posts that are full of that hate? Why start a thread just to get the arguments going (again)? Why stir shit up when it's already flying?
One of the things that took me a while to realize is that you can't make someone care about something. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have posted umpteen comments for the last two months. However, I'd be amiss to say I care anymore about SR4 since I declared last week that I won't play it. That doesn't mean I want it to suck, though, since I still have to play in that universe (and will buy the core book). If I come off as angry (and I admit I have been about some things I've read coming off my delirious high of uber-support when SR4 was first announced) it's because SR is admittedly one of the few things I actually care enough about that I spend as much of my time discussing it and working on it and writing about it as I do. And when you see someone you care about walking towards the edge of a cliff while blocked off by an infinitely tall and electrified fence, you can only scream so long and so loud. And sometimes, in the most rare of instances where it becomes more painful to scream and yell and even look at them, you give up on the selfish prick, turn around and walk away. Maybe if you're lucky, you don't hear the splash. And maybe you don't hold a little bit of resentment in your heart from here on.
I hate because Im paid to. Its in my contract with Mr. Johnson. He said if I spread enough hate on the boards Id get a bonus. I like bonuses. I also like steak dinners and walks on the beach. Im a single white dwarf seeking a running companion of a similar mind. We can make hate posts together and get double bonuses. Then we could afford big steak dinners. RSVP.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| I don't see where the confusion comes in. If you can pick up on the fact there's "so much hate," why can't you understand the posts that are full of that hate? Why start a thread just to get the arguments going (again)? Why stir shit up when it's already flying? |
The confusion comes in where I read people making posts about how the game is crashing and burning. The confusion comes in when I see people making judgement calls about a game that hasn't been released yet.
Its easy to see that there is hate, its not so easy to see where that hate comes from.
So far, from the replies I'm getting, there are valid reasons to worry. People distrust the publisher, people distrust the writers. I can understand those concerns, though I don't have enough experience to share them.
The only other thing people are complaining about is that they're missing information on certain topics. Complain about things that you actually have information about. Why waste all this energy arguing about things that you don't know anything about at all? Sure they took out Combat Pool as it stands in SR3. Personally, I believe they're going to replace it with something. That something is probably not refined yet. Therefor, they can't tell you anything about it. Its just that simple.
I've started another thread about why I think the direction that the Shadowrun rules are taking is a good thing.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| And sometimes, in the most rare of instances where it becomes more painful to scream and yell and even look at them, you give up on the selfish prick, turn around and walk away. Maybe if you're lucky, you don't hear the splash. And maybe you don't hold a little bit of resentment in your heart from here on. |
Wow. I hadn't pegged you as a melodramatic, Crimson.
You're right Nerbert...they're replacing Dice Pools with WoD dice pools:
attribute+skill+/-modifiers
Why change it? This is almost exactly the same as TN+/-modifiers roll your skill plus as much pool as you can/want to put in. The game as it sounds from the FAQs (which gives us a pretty good glimpse of what the game will be like) is moving towards WoD--basic TN roll your attribute plus skill, how many successes?
Personally I liked the Open Test. Sneaking into the corp compound? Roll and open stealth. Now I know what all my security goons have to roll to see you. I only got one success? The guard looks your way...you are not sure he saw you...
More attributes as well as Karma Pool being an attribute? I am very skeptical...especially since Edge is supposed to help non-cyber, non-mage characters but what prevents said characters from buying it since it is an attribute like all the others? Besides an extra few attributes? Again sounds like WoD and its 9 attributes.
One of the first things that supporters of SR4 said when it was announced was that it would get rid of rules bloat. Let me paraphrase from the FAQ...metamagic will still be around but it won't be dealt with too much in the main book...it will be detailed later on. Hello rules/book bloat. That's at least a Main Rules and Magic Rules book we'll have to buy. At least nWoD tries to create a main rule set to cut down on the number of books you have to buy to play their 8 different games.
This is, as I have said many times before, FanPro following the new industry standard of treating RPGs the same as textbooks...new year, new edition, more money.
attribute+skill+/-modifiers
Why change it? This is almost exactly the same as TN+/-modifiers roll your skill plus as much pool as you can/want to put in. The game as it sounds from the FAQs (which gives us a pretty good glimpse of what the game will be like) is moving towards WoD--basic TN roll your attribute plus skill, how many successes?
Personally I liked the Open Test. Sneaking into the corp compound? Roll and open stealth. Now I know what all my security goons have to roll to see you. I only got one success? The guard looks your way...you are not sure he saw you...
More attributes as well as Karma Pool being an attribute? I am very skeptical...especially since Edge is supposed to help non-cyber, non-mage characters but what prevents said characters from buying it since it is an attribute like all the others? Besides an extra few attributes? Again sounds like WoD and its 9 attributes.
One of the first things that supporters of SR4 said when it was announced was that it would get rid of rules bloat. Let me paraphrase from the FAQ...metamagic will still be around but it won't be dealt with too much in the main book...it will be detailed later on. Hello rules/book bloat. That's at least a Main Rules and Magic Rules book we'll have to buy. At least nWoD tries to create a main rule set to cut down on the number of books you have to buy to play their 8 different games.
This is, as I have said many times before, FanPro following the new industry standard of treating RPGs the same as textbooks...new year, new edition, more money.
| QUOTE |
| You're right Nerbert...they're replacing Dice Pools with WoD dice pools: attribute+skill+/-modifiers Why change it? This is almost exactly the same as TN+/-modifiers roll your skill plus as much pool as you can/want to put in. The game as it sounds from the FAQs (which gives us a pretty good glimpse of what the game will be like) is moving towards WoD--basic TN roll your attribute plus skill, how many successes? |
WoD also has two different sets of universaly useable resource pools, much like the Combat Pool. Willpower and any applicable supernatural resource. For example Vampires have "vitae". Willpower can be used proactively to add dice to a roll or defensively to add dice to a resisting roll. This is what people are talking about when they say "Combat Pool". Frankly, the SR4 FAQ never made any sense to me because it talks about replacing "Combat Pool" with something completely unrelated.
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| Personally I liked the Open Test. Sneaking into the corp compound? Roll and open stealth. Now I know what all my security goons have to roll to see you. I only got one success? The guard looks your way...you are not sure he saw you... |
The problem with Open Tests is that they were one of the few exceptions to the rule paradigm that didn't actually have to be there. Why not make a stealth roll contested by the number of successes instead of a potentially unreasonable TN?
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| More attributes as well as Karma Pool being an attribute? I am very skeptical...especially since Edge is supposed to help non-cyber, non-mage characters but what prevents said characters from buying it since it is an attribute like all the others? Besides an extra few attributes? Again sounds like WoD and its 9 attributes. |
Why does everyone talk about WoD like its such a bad thing and not the second most widely played RPG system in the world? More attributes doesn't increase rules complexity in any way. As for Edge, what is it for? Do you know? No, you don't know. Nothing is stopping cybernetic characters from having it except for whatever they would be losing by taking it. Do you think that the developers are completely ignorant of the must fundamental tenents of game balance? How can this be? Anyone who's ever tried to run an RPG learns game balance as their first cruel lesson in making the game fun.
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| One of the first things that supporters of SR4 said when it was announced was that it would get rid of rules bloat. Let me paraphrase from the FAQ...metamagic will still be around but it won't be dealt with too much in the main book...it will be detailed later on. Hello rules/book bloat. That's at least a Main Rules and Magic Rules book we'll have to buy. At least nWoD tries to create a main rule set to cut down on the number of books you have to buy to play their 8 different games. |
About halfway through this reply I realized that this was not a rational post. This paragraph confirms this. I didn't realize that expanding and deeping the core game rules through "splat books" was a new and sinister ploy on the part of RPG companies. When they talk about "Rules Bloat" do you think they mean things like Metamagic?
The core Shadowrun Book has no reason to be anything except just that, the Core Rules. If you want to get deeper into the Magical world, you're free to, or you can safely ignore it without having to haul around a nine pound tome.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| The problem with Open Tests is that they were one of the few exceptions to the rule paradigm that didn't actually have to be there. Why not make a stealth roll contested by the number of successes instead of a potentially unreasonable TN? |
It's all about possible vs. impossible. Look at Invisibility, which is determined the way you suggest: a Mage with twelve dice for Invis (six spell pool, six Sorcery) will most of the time be completely immune to being seen by anyone with Intelligence less than six. With the Open Test, even an Intelligence 3 guard will have a shot at seeing a Stealth 8 ninja under any circumstances.
~J
Thats one of the things thats likley to change when they implement the new system. In thoery, most of the little hitches like that will be eliminated.
Also, no one RSVP? /frowny
Also, no one RSVP? /frowny
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| What prevents a PC from using a sniper rifle like an assault rifle? |
Even hard systems have thier soft mods.
Consider the fact that a sniper rifle is 6+ feet long, leaving the GM free to impose penalties to dodge tests, movement, stealth rolls ("clunk"), and maybe even reaction tests ("you whirl around- and your gun snags on your team mates coat"). And look at all the vehicles the gun just won't fit in, not to mention the absurdity of firing one from inside said vehicle.
I've played twinked out combat characters with the best of them, and the above options (none of which our GM ever implimented) were enough to keep me from toting a sniper rifle on more than a couple occasions. And on those occasions, it STILL seemed a bad idea- for one thing, assault rifles are much cheaper to replace!
| QUOTE (Mongoose) | ||
Even hard systems have thier soft mods. Consider the fact that a sniper rifle is 6+ feet long, leaving the GM free to impose penalties to dodge tests, movement, stealth rolls ("clunk"), and maybe even reaction tests ("you whirl around- and your gun snags on your team mates coat"). |
Houserule, houserule and houserule.
Which was my original point ; what prevent the PCs from doing this ; houserule (or an understanding between GM and PCs).
| QUOTE (Charon) | ||||
Houserule, houserule and houserule. Which was my original point ; what prevent the PCs from doing this ; houserule (or an understanding between GM and PCs). |
Well, the Sniper rifle in SR3 has rules stating that for every combat turn you use it outside of a sniper role, it has a chance that it's optics will get misaligned, and it takes a +2 to target numbers. I remember that the Barret from the CC has double recoil, and an integral bipod to compensate for it.
| QUOTE |
| WoD also has two different sets of universaly useable resource pools, much like the Combat Pool. Willpower and any applicable supernatural resource. For example Vampires have "vitae". Willpower can be used proactively to add dice to a roll or defensively to add dice to a resisting roll. This is what people are talking about when they say "Combat Pool". Frankly, the SR4 FAQ never made any sense to me because it talks about replacing "Combat Pool" with something completely unrelated. |
It makes no sense to us, either. Thus, you see a lot of resistance.
| QUOTE |
| Why does everyone talk about WoD like its such a bad thing and not the second most widely played RPG system in the world? More attributes doesn't increase rules complexity in any way. |
Oh, bulldrek. Adding new base attributes always complicate the game, if only by causing more argument over what attribute applies. For example, right now, if a character is trying to recall something, he rolls Intelligence. Under the new system, will he need to roll Intuition or Reason?
And don't get me started on the Edge issue. See, the FAQ says that everything will go to an attribute+skill roll...except Edge cannot possibly work that way, without either being overpowered at high levels (use Edge instead of any other attribute) and useless at low levels. There's got to be a different mechanic working there, which turns the entire "simplify" claim into a falsehood.
As for why emulating WoD is a bad thing, it has to do with originality. I'd rather play a first-rate Shadowrun game than a second-rate WoD clone. This is also why many of the D20 companies went under.
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| Do you think that the developers are completely ignorant of the must fundamental tenents of game balance? |
Game balance, no. Game simplicity, very possibly. Just take a look at the current rigger rules, and remember that the same guy behind that mess is a primary writer on SR4.
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| I didn't realize that expanding and deeping the core game rules through "splat books" was a new and sinister ploy on the part of RPG companies. When they talk about "Rules Bloat" do you think they mean things like Metamagic? |
In some ways. Look at the Rifts system-- every book introduced something bigger and badder than before, so if you wanted to keep up power-wise, you needed to have the latest splat book. Shadowrun fell for that trap to a lesser extent-- only the "crunch" books elevated the power level. Again, look at R3 for the best example of this-- all of a sudden, shadowrunners needed to deal with naval damage levels!
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| More attributes doesn't increase rules complexity in any way. |
Increasing the variables doesn't make it more complicated?
I was just about to post that I thought the word "hate" was too strong for most of what I've seen here on SR4. But to be honest that idea that this is not increasing complexity is insulting. By the basic laws of mathematics it doesn't hold up. If you believe that drivel, it is be insulting that you are posting it here. If you know it's drivel and are trying to get us to buy into it, it is insulting that you think we're that stupid.
That having been said, most of the bile going around is between partisans of the 4th and 3rd eds. With regards to the system itself, well, Irritation and annoyance maybe but not hatred. I don't think we don't distrust the writers. Many of us old timers feel like we know many of the writers from posts, pm's and e-mails.
I think clearly we don't trust the publishers at all.
I was just about to post that I thought the word "hate" was too strong for most of what I've seen here on SR4. But to be honest that idea that this is not increasing complexity is insulting. By the basic laws of mathematics it doesn't hold up. If you believe that drivel, it is be insulting that you are posting it here. If you know it's drivel and are trying to get us to buy into it, it is insulting that you think we're that stupid.
That having been said, most of the bile going around is between partisans of the 4th and 3rd eds. With regards to the system itself, well, Irritation and annoyance maybe but not hatred. I don't think we don't distrust the writers. Many of us old timers feel like we know many of the writers from posts, pm's and e-mails.
I think clearly we don't trust the publishers at all.
| QUOTE |
| Oh, bulldrek. Adding new base attributes always complicate the game, if only by causing more argument over what attribute applies. For example, right now, if a character is trying to recall something, he rolls Intelligence. Under the new system, will he need to roll Intuition or Reason? |
More attributes does not guarantee more arguments, if the attributes are clearly defined and differentiated there is no room for an argument, granted there is no guarantee SR4 will be that well written. Also, a lack of attributes can create complexity, when one attribute gets used for lots of functionally different tests (like intelligence being used to recall facts, perceive the environment, or comprehend a complex situation) then you have the complexity on the other side, players can argue about wether penalties to intelligence should or should not affect a specific test.
Almost any kind of change has the possibilty to add complexity, but that does not guarantee that it will add complexity.
| QUOTE |
| And don't get me started on the Edge issue. See, the FAQ says that everything will go to an attribute+skill roll...except Edge cannot possibly work that way, without either being overpowered at high levels (use Edge instead of any other attribute) and useless at low levels. There's got to be a different mechanic working there, which turns the entire "simplify" claim into a falsehood. |
Essence can't work that way either, but then essence didn't functioned like a normal attribute in SR3 either. A game can be simplified without being simple. If essence remains functionally the same and edge does not operate in the same manner as the other attributes it doesn't invalidate the claim of simplifying the game, it means the simplification of the system happens elsewhere.
Of course that does not necessarily make simplification a good thing.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| I don't think we don't distrust the writers. Many of us old timers feel like we know many of the writers from posts, pm's and e-mails. I think clearly we don't trust the publishers at all. |
Speak for yourself. I can trust the number of people posting on DS on one hand, and there's not a freelancer or dev among them. Nor should there be. IMO.
| QUOTE |
| More attributes does not guarantee more arguments, if the attributes are clearly defined and differentiated there is no room for an argument, granted there is no guarantee SR4 will be that well written. |
Actually, I can guarantee it will, especially if someone has one attribute significantly higher than another. For example, I've seen lots of people complain that their trolls should be able to default to Strength or Body for intimidation, instead of Charisma. Add even more attributes, and you add even more points to argue over.
| QUOTE |
| Essence can't work that way either, but then essence didn't functioned like a normal attribute in SR3 either. A game can be simplified without being simple. If essence remains functionally the same and edge does not operate in the same manner as the other attributes it doesn't invalidate the claim of simplifying the game, it means the simplification of the system happens elsewhere. |
I'm not arguing that simplification isn't necessarily a good thing. However, I *do* think that advertising it as "Only attribute+skill! No exceptions!" is decidedly misleading, concealing the fact that additional complexities may be lurking just out of sight.
See, what they're saying amounts to: "Only attribute + skill! You never need to worry about anything else! Except, of course, for essence. And Edge. And Magic [probably]. And..." See what I'm getting at?
| QUOTE ("Snow Fox") |
| That having been said, most of the bile going around is between partisans of the 4th and 3rd eds. With regards to the system itself, well, Irritation and annoyance maybe but not hatred. I don't think we don't distrust the writers. Many of us old timers feel like we know many of the writers from posts, pm's and e-mails. |
Agreed. Just look at the switching poll thread. Most people are adopting a wait-and-see attitude, myself included. Much of the "hate" is just negative speculation at this time. As more information becomes availiable, we'll be able to give you a better response.
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