I don't think I ever doubted that SR4 would be something different.

They are advancing the timeline, which suggests they plan to enact changes to the setting that cannot or should not occur as a gradual evolution over several sourcebooks (this of course would be the Wireless Matrix, and anything else they haven't told us about but which may crop up in System Failure). It would have been a bad idea to make a fourth edition and then almost immediately start releasing new books with extra rules to cover the radical changes the setting undergoes. It's also not a great idea to try and incorporate those rules changes into 3rd edition, if you do that you end up with what have essentially become core rules scattered across several sourcebooks, none of which are the actual core rulebook.

The FAQs show that SR4 is going to be a fundamentally different game in terms of the rules mechanics. Personally I do not see this as inherantly bad. It's true that new rules can mean a different feel to the game, but I don't believe it guarantees that. If there was only one possible set of rules that could make you feel like you were playing shadowrun the game would never have had a second or third edition, or at least not a successfull second or third edition.

At the same time I can see why people are uneasy or negative about SR4. I never felt the magic system was in desperate need of repair, I would have preferred an FAQ with more detail on how 'hackers' function in SR4. I have read complaints about Fanpro's talk of streamlining the game whilst adding extra attributes. There is merit in the argument that more attributes won't help streamline the game, but I don't think it guarantees the game will become slower, and if nothing else subdividing some of the existing attributes can give greater range in the development of characters, and I like that.

In the end I remain uncertain about SR4, I am not overly negative or positive at this stage, and I don't think that will change until the book itself is released or more accurately when I myself get access to the SR4 rulebook.

well the magic system would have to have to of its mechanics redone to fit the new dice system anyways. and after rereading the latest faq they are saying that the sr magic system had gone virtualy unchanged at its core from sr1 onwards. yes some of the addons where changed, like say anchoring but overall it have stayed largely unchanged.

what they seems to be aiming for is a reworked system that allow for traditions like voodoo without having to basicly rewrite the magic system from the ground up with new spirits and so on for every tradition, instead you just picke the traits you feel the tradition should have from a list given to you by the book.

this could allow for say a necromancy tradition with zombies and others but grounded in hermetic thinking. you could in theory do so today by borrowing the zombies from voodoo, maybe ancestor spirits from wuxing but in the end its houserules. but with the new system you can maybe do so based on the cost of the diffrent abilitys. hell, we may see a return of the astral adept

the extra attributes may well be a reaction to what looks like a increased importance of attributes with the new dice system. and by splitting some of them you may be accurate with your hands but not quick in your reactions when something happens, or intelligent but not very perceptive wasnt that one of the complaints of the original system that deckers where the ones that have the best ability to spot things?

and it would realy surprise me if they give out any more info on hackers then they have allready done as it seems to be used as the big magnet to draw interest in sr4. still, if one can envision a decker with wireless access to the matrix, and allso equiped with a remote deck, and having the ability to use both at the same time then i think we are getting close to a rough image of how a hacker will be.

Changes to the magic system have been a bit more than just the nature of anchoring or a few addons. They have messed with the drain codes for spells in each edition, spirits have been altered (changed their interaction with physical attacks, taking away the alienation power from nature spirits), combat spells underwent a significant change both with elemental effects being limited solely to damaging manipulation spells and the damage code of the spell not being hardwired into its design, and 3rd edition (specifically MitS) changed how initiation worked in a big way. The feel of the magic system hasn't changed since first edition but the rules have.

The idea of mixing and matching spirit types to create different traditions sounds good, but such a system would probably have to increase the number of available spirit types (animistic traditions that believe that every object possesses a spirit, followers of a god or gods who call up direct manifestations of their divine patron, and so on) in order to make new traditions truly unique. The problem is the idea presents an excuse to minimax your own magical tradition, and that's something I really wouldn't want to see in SR.

Don't forget Grounding, casting spells using Sorcery rather than Force, etc. There have been lots of changes in SR magic over the editions; I know about a few of the big ones even though I've never played 1st or 2nd ed.

The thing is they haven't been as extensive as the overhaul for this edition because, frankly, magic didn't need much of an overhaul. Other than a few patches here and there (chaning the Invis spel, for instance, buying magic by points rather than whole-hog, flexible traditions, maybe adapting Grounding rules for 3rd ed use), there really wasn't any big changed needed. Magic is one of the easiest to grok of the major rule subsets (combat, cyberware/Essence, vehicular rules, decking/Matrix, non-combat social/physical skills). It's the one I started with when I looked over the edition because it seemed the most internally consistent, and it's the one I understand best to this day.

Unfortunately now it all must go, because it depended heavily on the variable TN aspect of SR3 rules to function, and they're getting rid of variable TNs.

The fact that we even have to get all the info like that through translations does drive me batty.

Wow, sounds like FanPro really shot themselves in the foot, what with the things I'm reading in this thread.

Earth to FanPro: Don't piss off your customers.

Funny this,
I pulled up the FAQs for my group down south and had them read over them. After each had gotten to take a look, one guy stands up and says:
"Looks like we're sticking with 3rd edition."
Everybody laughed...but the sad part was we knew it was true unless FanPro can convince us they are really putting out a "better" product than the one we already love.

Point taken, though FanPro.de still has more available staff.

And more Germans know English than Americans know German. Even if the U.S. market was not the largest, that would be an argument for the book to be written in English.

I'm not saying anything about it being right or wrong, merely pointing out at the current situation.

Okay hold up. They have all this stuff in German for you guys that they haven't shown to us, but in the end you'll buy the US stuff because the German translation is horrible?

They don't translate the german-only stuff like Schockwellen (hope that was clear ) and this stuff is much better when it comes to grammar and the like. The translations of SoE or SOTA: 2064 had been so worse that i sold those books and bought them again in english. And i'll do so with the upcoming books as well. Besides it normally takes a few weeks until the german version is available - and i don't want to wait that long. Especially not for a flawed translation.

there's a 3rd-party cyberpunk book out. the netrunning is... well, it's terrible, if you're interested in any sort of detail. it's basically the astral plane with refinements and easier access.

refering to ogl cybernet mfb?

from what i know there is atleast 2 third party cyberpunk d20 books out, ogl cybernet and digital burn (or something like that). there is allso a fan translation pdf of cyberpunk 2020 (atleast it looks that way) and there is a d20 future sourcebook for d20 modern (cyberware, mecha, spaceships, future tech equipment and aliens) + a cyberspace pdf (that looks like a chapter that they dropped from the d20 future book).

d20 future isn't bad. the mecha rules are hilariously complex, though. i pity the foo' who picks up d20 future looking for a beer-and-pretzels mecha game.

And wizards new forthcoming Cyberspace book:

That doesn't at all sound like anything we know of, does it?

no, actually, it doesn't. SR doesn't have magical cybernetics. SR also lacks viable psionics.

OK

Haha, do you have to have 3 levels of the Street Samurai Prestige Class to get Wired Reflexes 3 installed?

But it still means that d20 will have a system out that will be able to do everything that Shadowrun does and has a much larger fan base...

I really think that whoever is in charge of marketing and brand management at FanPro should have done a lot more research before giving SR4 the go ahead. It'll have to be a very good improvement over SR3 (which I'm sure the developers believe with all their hearts) to win over the current gamers and it would have to be something truly unique and worthwhile to seduce d20 players into spending another 100 or 200 dollars to get the core rules from another game.

I think the point of mfb correcting me was to point out that it may have the veneer of similarity, but its execution (based on the small blurb we have seen here) is radically different.

You know, us D20 players (Yeah, I am one) are not members of a sect that needs to be brainwashed back into playing games without 20 sided dice.

First of all, money is no more a barrier to new SR player than it is for any other game. A D&D player will have to invest just as much money to get into Spycraft as he would have to invest to get into SR.

The only difference is the instant familiarity you get from another D20 system. But that cuts both way since a player that, for example, wants to take a break from D&D might not be thrilled at the idea to play D&D with guns. He may wants something different.

SR4 doesn't have to work miracles. Just be a fun game with easy to understand mechanics, a fast pace and its own identity.

Wa-La

I actually came across it whil browsing theit forums.


*stands up, looks around nervously* "My name is eldritch, And I play d20!"

*sits back down*


*shrug* I've grown to like the system - playing mostly Star Wars and D20 Modern. Like any other system, if there is something you don't like, change it, don't use it, or look for something else. There's plenty of materiel out there......

*adding book to to-buy list*
looks promising, and after getting over the initial way that d20 future handled cyberware (more then 1+con bonus items give -1 effective level or somthing like that) and i kinda like it

but i allso kinda like ogl cybernet, including the network system as it basicly uses the normal rules in a secondary world. but allows the "hacker" to pull software out of thin air with a good programming skill and even rewrite the server he is on. and its a simple 10 round online, 1 round in real life so the hacker goes speedy gonzales

Slightly "off-topic":