 Why all the hate? |
  |
 May 21 2005, 05:13 AM
Post
#51
|
|||
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 227  |
I chooose those cases because the rules specifically state that a GM can apply appropriate situational modifiers to all of the tests (dodging, stealth, reaction) I mentioned. I'd say hauling an abnormally bulky load (like a full size sniper rifle) qualifies for such a mod. Good reason not to carry a Panther Cannon or HMG on most runs, too... The GM also can disallow certain types of movment or apply consequnces when they are attempted; its pretty f-ing obvious you can't run in certain situations (say a jungle, or twisting corridor) when toting a 6 foot long gun- or at least, that something bad might happen if you do. So those aren't house rules, just applications of published rules to cover a situation the rules don't explicitely address. Maybe some GM's wouldn't do it, but its well within the rules. And this absolutely can work in the players FAVOR; a good GM would apply similar penalties to those omni-present PAC toting troll badguys when the players get clever and force him to fight in crowded quarters. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
May 21 2005, 05:34 AM
Post
#52
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
One wonders, at times, where the simplicity actually is. Attribute + skill +- modifiers vs. TN5 isn't really much simpler than skill vs. TN determined by modifiers. The hard part is the modifiers, and we can't tell whether those are simplified or not. The removal of combat pool is a simplification--not one that I think is a good simplification--but some people claim that those who complain about the damage to tactics will be restored by another mechanism at which point it's probably more complicated not simpler. (I've always thought variable pools are a brilliant way to encourage tactical thinking without getting bogged down in piles of details that you have to remember--you still have to make decisions about where to go for it and where to be careful, but you don't need to remember what the modifiers are for different types of "going for it" and "being careful".) I expect that combat pool will have no replacement, and that the simplification will be in no longer having as much ability to think tactically. FAQ5 suggested that they wanted to simplify and remove barnacles and bailing wire, but there isn't enough detail there show how things are simpler--and it's certainly more work to keep track of six skills than two. Likewise having lots of different traditions could be more complicated, unless they've made the distinctions between traditions even more uninteresting than the current ones are. Riggers and deckers being collapsed into hackers could be good for simplicity but it could worsen it if every hacker now has to be familiar with the equivalent of all the decking and all the rigging rules. And so on.
Who are these mysterious "publishers"? Isn't FanPro basically Rob Boyle?
I have to admit that I don't trust the writers, even the ones I (used to) know reasonably well. It's not that I mistrust their intentions--I'm quite confident they want to improve SR and intend to make SR4 better than SR3 as best they can. I mistrust their ability. Creating a new game system from scratch is hard. New game companies try to do this all the time, then flame out and disappear. Sometimes it's because their story sucks, but just as often it's because the game doesn't play well. And most of the writers probably didn't choose to write SR4. They just have to cope with the situation as it stands. Hopefully they're motivated and eager to do a good job, but I am still not confident that they can, despite their best intentions. I have also seen on many occasions the tendency of developers to lose track of what their customers' concerns are. (Happens with movie directors too.) The problem arises because developers probably don't play SR as much as we do--they're too busy working on SR products (and other things), which involves writing and editing and stuff, not actually playing the game. (Movie directors also often don't approach watching a movie with the same frame of mind that most of the audience does.) The FAQs, plus posts of freelancers here (e.g. Patrick Goodman), give me no confidence that this pitfall has been avoided. If there is extensive feedback from playtesters, that would go a long way towards alleviating this concern--it's hard to fall into the traps of myopia or self-affirmation or sparing feelings when people are telling you, "Hey, these 45 things suck bigtime". Someone who is free to say what they really think from a somewhat outside perspective is really valuable, though. Otherwise, maybe no-one speaks up about that set of rules cause they don't want to hurt Jon's feelings, and everyone's hush-hush about the feeling there cause they know it's a pet idea of Rob's and they don't want to upset him, or nobody even looked at that table, because tables are boring, or nobody thought to take an attribute of 6 here and skill 6 there and thus didn't notice how unbalanced it was. Problem is, rules don't get better by themselves. Problems aren't fixed unless they're pointed out and worked on until they go away or are better. So, that's why I can't trust the writers to do a good job on SR4. It's a hard job, there are big pitfalls, and I see little indication either that they're able to handle a job of that difficulty, or that they've taken pains to avoid the worst pitfalls. If I forget for a moment that it is important to me personally that SR4 be fun to play, then rather than being irritated, I'd rather feel sorry for the developers. If they succeed beyond their wildest dreams, people will barely notice..."cool, SR is a bit more fun now!". And if they fail, they will probably feel responsible for the decline and fall of one of the best roleplaying games around. It's more responsibility than I'd want to take on. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 21 2005, 06:00 AM
Post
#53
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Full-time staff, FanPro is Rob Boyle and Randall Bills [the Classic BattleTech line developer]. FanPro GmbH staff are involved with most major decisions. Rett Kipp handles marketing and promotions [mostly dealing with retailers and distributors], and Studio 2 Publishing handles sales and distribution. Freelancers -- several of which are ex-FASA staff -- handle writing, art, editing, and layout tasks. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 21 2005, 06:07 AM
Post
#54
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Cool, thanks, Adam. Interesting info!
|
|
|
|
|
May 21 2005, 07:17 AM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Most of the tension isn't caused just by disagreement, but by nervousness.
If someone you like is about to go in for a major surgery, you get a little concerned, don't you? The surgeon might be really good at his job (like these guys), but never have done a whole heart transplant before (much like the dev team's never created a brand new game from the ground up, but had to keep around a timeline/feel). You trust the surgeon for some stuff, you've been impressed with his work before -- but regardless, you're a little nervous when the bone saw comes out and he's hacking through your loved one's ribcage. Right? |
|
|
|
|
May 21 2005, 07:22 AM
Post
#56
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Finally, some sanity. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 21 2005, 12:59 PM
Post
#57
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
You come here for the sanity?
LOL ;) The only writers I know (and I use that word very loosely) are/were less involved in the rules development and more involved in the world building and metaplot. R King-Nietsche (spelling?) for example. Like others have said at greater length, they are raising the rules of a game we have been emotionally invested in (for over a decade in many cases), and building it back up from the ground. Risky. High potential for major disappointment, lots of nervous and angry posts ensue. Anger = fear pointed outwards. |
|
|
|
|
May 21 2005, 09:11 PM
Post
#58
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
This is very sound and my only problem with it, is not your logic, but a needed addition. Many of us are wondering if the operation is even necessary, and are not convinced that it isn't just turn over for the sake of turnover. When I say we don't trust the publishers, here's more of what I mean. I'm a licenced financial advisor and if this was a stcok sale being advised by Fanpro, it would be seriously looked over by regulartory agencies as potential churning. That is recommending a sale not because it is in the best interest of the client (us) but to generate a commission for the agent (Fanpro or more probably the people holding their strings who want an excuse to rehash the basic magic/cyber/car/weapon books) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 21 2005, 09:18 PM
Post
#59
|
|||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Yeah, Sinner never posts here and Piston's name doesn't appear in the writing credits of any of the books on my self. (and for those of you who missed it, there's sarcasm dripping from both those lines.) One thing I'm wondering if it's pushing this is the august release date? They want Gen Con as the big display for the industry. but tied to that date, how much room do they have to stop/redo if they realize they are catching flak or alienating their fan base? Like the song says, "It takes a little time, to turn the titanic around." It isn't like a delayed SB, to have volumes bound for GC they have to pretty much get it to the printers soon. There is no time for re-editing is there? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 21 2005, 09:47 PM
Post
#60
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
The RPG market as a whole is shrinking. There are two possible ways to deal with this. One is to try to entice non-RPGers to play. The goal there is to make the game fast-paced and easy to learn, in order to have some hope of competing with the fast-paced easy-to-learn video games and similar entertainment options. Of course, you can't beat them at their own game, but they also lower the level of what people are willing to tolerate, so to get them started you have to make some concessions. This increases the total market for RPGs.
The other way is to focus your product at existing gamers; other games will bring new customers into the fold, and you will steal them. Here, you have to offer something that the simple, flashy games cannot--depth of fictional world, strategic thinking, mechanics that have peculiar outcomes less frequently, a more realistic setting, etc.. Once people know what RPGs are and think they're fun, some will want more, and you target those people. This increases your game's fraction of the market for RPGs. I consider SR3 to be the latter kind of game. It has a depth and realism that is often imperfect, but nonetheless has a more mature feel than, say, D&D or Magic: the Gathering. SR3 is well-positioned for this role; I can't offhand think of another game that provides a relatively mature setting that has SR's market share. Then again, I'm too busy to keep up with gaming trends, so hopefully someone can correct me. From what the developers have said, it sounds to me like they're trying to shift to being the former kind of game. I think this is a mistake, partly because I likely won't want to play that kind of SR, and because the market is already pretty full there. Again, maybe someone can correct me. (Best of all would be information about the demographics of the players of each RPG!) With other games taking the first route, SR does need to change even if it's going to take the second--as games move towards attracting new players, SR can come in behind them, becoming a bit more sophisticated, a bit more realistic, a bit more fun for the experienced, and steal more customers. So I don't think that the revision idea is necessarily a bad one. Did it need to happen now? I don't know. In terms of timing it seems as easily explained by a new company's desire to leave its mark as a pressing financial concern. But sooner or later, yeah, it had to happen. You have to come out with something new now and then to get coverage, to get sales, to increase your fanbase (whether from new gamers or by enticing existing gamers). To do things this way, though--tear out the heart and soul of the game mechanics, replace it with mechanics that scream simplicity (but do not scream Shadowrun) and FAQs that read like, "Well, the old stuff is gone--good riddance!--but we haven't quite nailed down what is going in instead," and all within the timeframe of a rapidly-looming GenCon--well, it seems folly at best, and disaster at worst. I'd say the TN for getting this right is about 11. I hope the devs have a pretty high skill and some good karma pool...er, wait. I mean, you need six successes, so I hope the devs have a pretty high linked attribute and lots of edge. |
|
|
|
|
May 21 2005, 09:54 PM
Post
#61
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Contrast and compare this with what FanPro is doing:
That is the kind of thing I'd like FanPro to be able to say. The difference to date is almost enough to make one weep. They took the best of the old mechanics, applied them consistently across relevant portions of the game, fixed up flaws in the old mechanics, made poorly-integrated characters more integrated, enhanced the character creation system to be more flexible and handle the widest range of characters--and then tested the game extensively to make sure it all works. Doesn't that sound exactly like what you'd hope would be done for SR4? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 21 2005, 09:56 PM
Post
#62
|
|||||||
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
He didn't say no devs came here. He said he doesn't trust them. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
May 21 2005, 10:16 PM
Post
#63
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
What most companies do for GenCon is have the printer air-ship just enough books to the show, while they ground ship the rest of the books to the warehouse. Last year the company I worked for sent 5 books [four of them full-colour, two of them 350+ page hardbacks] to press just two weeks before GenCon, and had copies of all of them arrive the day before the show -- from China, no less. And that included the printer sending us proofs of the books, and us making some corrections. I plan on doing the exact same thing with some other books [Not SR4 -- that one isn't on my layout/design plate] this year. :-) |
||
|
|
|
||
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 21 2005, 10:29 PM
Post
#64
|
||||||||
|
Guests |
Oh, great. I now officially need a translator. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
 May 21 2005, 10:36 PM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
qu'est que vous dite?
|
|
|
|
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 21 2005, 10:41 PM
Post
#66
|
|
Guests |
An English to typoed English translator.
|
|
|
|
|
May 21 2005, 11:24 PM
Post
#67
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Dollar a word, bay-bee.
|
|
|
|
|
May 22 2005, 12:12 AM
Post
#68
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
"dites", n'est pas!? Au secours! Nous avons besoin d'un francais ici! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 22 2005, 12:23 AM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
" Qu'est-ce que vous dites ? "
and " N'est-ce pas ? " Still, not bad for non natives speaker. Unless you just took a cheap translator and let it do your mistake for you? ;) My guess is Snow Fox did just that while Wounded Roinin deserves some kudos. |
|
|
|
|
May 22 2005, 08:42 AM
Post
#70
|
|||||||||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
From the Casablanca movie: Captain Renault: What in heaven's name brought you to Casablanca? Rick: My health. I came to Casablanca for the waters. Captain Renault: The waters? What waters? We're in the desert. Rick: I was misinformed. :P Jokes aside, Critias managed to state his worries without having to bash or flame anyone. Given the growing toxicity of Dumpshock's SR4 boards, I find that worthy of note.
This is just a quick search, but I hope this helps:
Rob Boyle (more here) Elissa Carey (more here) Brian Cross Dan Grendel Adam Jury (and don't forget about Adam's cool sister! ;)) Steve Kenson (more here) Christian Lonsing (FanPro.de's Editor, though I couldn't find his German credits with a quick Google search) David Lyons Michelle Lyons (more here) Jon Szeto
Understandable, though I'd suggest lowering the hatchet until there's more information to bite at. We're still three months away from SR4, and *I guess* that any substantial teaser will probably appear closer to the release date (this is valid for most RPG companies that I know of, by the way).
What, afraid of the unknown? :cyber: |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
May 22 2005, 09:13 AM
Post
#71
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Does that mean we'll be seeing toxic hearth spirits here soon? ;) :D |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 22 2005, 09:37 AM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
Nay.
But the odds of delusional Pax loyalist Otaku have jumped 10 fold. |
|
|
|
|
May 22 2005, 09:41 AM
Post
#73
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Jesus; they're missing like 8 billion of my credits.
|
|
|
|
|
May 22 2005, 02:35 PM
Post
#74
|
|||||
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
So exactly, in fact, that I might actually buy the book and, if SR4 tanks as badly as I'm beginning to expect it will, start playing that instead. I remember I loved what little of the game I did read about, but the spell creation guidelines were the main thing that put me off of the game. If those change, hell I'll switch no problem. And that, in the end, is the problem with SR4's approach. That one blurb managed to get me interested in the new Ars Magika system more than five "FAQs" of SR4 did. It's actually not that hard to get me excited about something--I'm kind of a sucker that way--and the fact that the marketing for SR4, a product that I was really looking forward to already, can't hold my interest tells me at least that there's something wrong. And that's what I'm angry about. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 22 2005, 03:28 PM
Post
#75
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
No, I havn't had to write French in years and was gonig from memory. speaking it is much easier. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 8th August 2025 - 04:04 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.