Why no Robots?!, perplexed with our world in the future Options

[Deuce]

So, this morning i started pondering the issue of "robots" in Shadowrun. Yes, i know that recently in the new rigger book "robots" were introduced...and hey! In Mister Johnson's Little Black book it makes mention of a club where most of the staff is Robot Servers....
SO...I guess the thing i am pondering IS...with how tech is going today...why are robots(not drones)so infrequint...
Why Not robot PC's?!
thoughts?

(besides calling me a cheesy Issac Asimov lover...)

[Slacker]

I would say there are no robot PCs or robots like in Asimov's books because AI is an extremely rare thing requiring too much equipment to fit into a humanoid form, and the robot programming has not advance for enough for it (I believe robot pilot programming is limited to rating 5 and below).

[Herald of Verjig...]

A rating 5 robot pilot with all the tweaks should be smarther and more competant than most PCs. If you were to try to use one (with a very variant priority chart or BP rules), it would be even more difficult to play properly than shifters. Humans still retain some level of instict that can be isolated and exaggerated to begin to play a shifter correctly, but very few can figure out how to isolate and exaggerate a cost-benefit analysis for every possible action at every time.

So, if you were to allow such a thing (hey, it could be fun), make sure the robo-pc is a malfunctioning prototype or something to explain why it may act in completely irrational manners.

[Jrayjoker]

The closest thing to a robot in SR that I can think of is one of Deus' slaves. More of a conditioned sentient, though.

[hermit]

The reason why SR has no humanoid C-3PO droids running about is because the attitudes of society towards robots have changed, and because the Asimov-esque approach to computers - intelligent but rare - has been proven to have been a fundamentally wrong assumption (instead, they're common and stupid).

Also, Asimov-esque droids are a bit too cheesy for a gritty game such as shadowrun. Especially sicne true, self-aware AI is a great rarity in the SR universe. A maxed out robot drone may be competent as a PC, even moreso - but only in the boundraries what it is programmed to do and programmed to adapt to. Robots in SR aren't self-aware. Not even smartframes are. There're a total of three known AI, two of which happen to be different stages of development of one AI (Morgan and Meagra). Deus is the only other (known) AI in canon SR, and he has goen to great lengths to give all future AI a slant of being incredibly dangerous.

While there is no shortage of non-humanoid robots of all kinds (essentially, every drone running on autopilot could be considered a robot in the wider sense), humanoids such as the characters in AI, I, Robot or C-3PO are very rare and very, very uncommon to meet in the shadows in canon SR.

What would work within the SR world is something such as GitS' Tachikomas - a collective of robot pilots who, as a network, slowly develop selfawareness. Of course, that wopuldn't be a viable PC.

For a PC robot, who would likely have to be humanoid, there would have to be a non-canon or at least only semi-canon background you and your GM would have to work out. Good clues to that are given in the Rigger book (stats, maintainance, ect), corporate download, Shiawase and MCT sections(mainly for the background and where the robot is from) and Matrix. Also, the robot wouldn't be hard to detect even if it wore organic skin (as in Terminator): I doupt a slap of skin and tissue would have the same aura as a human being, since the Aura also shows personality, felelings and thoughts.

If such a PC would be made, it would be very hard on them to coexist with the rest of the 6th world without being sold to some corp by his fellow runners.

It's a bit like with rocket cars, though. I personally feel SR's world would become too cheesy 50s scifi with humanoid, asimov-esque robots about.

[Edward]

The listed technology level in SR dose not support an AI except under special circumstances, including equipment you would have trouble fitting on a lage ship, little chance on a arthreform drone.

The robot pilot listed in R3 is not close to being a true AI, conches of itself and capable of making decisions not in keeping with its programming.

You cant play one as a PC because they are not capable of true independent operation.

If your bent the rules to allow one it would very quickly be in corp. hands, corps are wiling to expend millions (of not billions) to secure an AI, more so if it fits inside the small shell of a robot body.

Edward

[hyzmarca]

The listed technology level in SR dose not support an AI except under special circumstances, including equipment you would have trouble fitting on a lage ship, little chance on a arthreform drone.

The robot pilot listed in R3 is not close to being a true AI, conches of itself and capable of making decisions not in keeping with its programming.

You cant play one as a PC because they are not capable of true independent operation.

If your bent the rules to allow one it would very quickly be in corp. hands, corps are wiling to expend millions (of not billions) to secure an AI, more so if it fits inside the small shell of a robot body.

Edward

Asimov robots are, for the most part, limited by their programing. Very few from his US Robotics stories actually evolve anything resembling free will. The one from Bicentinial Man and the pair from That Thou Art Mindful of Him are al that I can think of and they were the most advanced AIs ever produced in their respective stories. Neither bore any resemblance to a Shadowrun "AI".


Shadowrun's definition of AI is sort of silly. The Amazon Dot Com recomendation engine is an AI. A real AI doesn't have to be a self-aware ultra-computer. It just has to be capible of learning from its experience and making independant decisions. A high rating robot pilot fits that description fairly well.
A good robot pilot with some social autosofts would be the perfect representation of Asimovs robots. They could certainly make good NPCs.

Some paranoid entity using a anthroform with a rating 5 robot pilot, negoation and etiquite autosofts as a Johnson would be an interesting plothook.

Also, one shouldn't confuse personality with sentience. If you make a social machine you can program it to have any personality you want. Just because it seems lifelike and is capible of holding a conversation doesn't mean it fits shadowrun's definition of AI. There are programs today that can hold a conversation.

[Edward]

And with the exception of the rare self aware robots these can exist in eth SR world, all be it with a rather high price tag.

The robotic Johnson would work just as well as a drone but you could do it ether way in your game, just remember from a corporate point of view, a arthreform with robotic pilot 5 is more expensive than a human with skill wires and a negotiation activsoft so it wont happen often,

In order to be a PC you would have to be self aware, you admit this I rare even in Asimov‘s work with the low number of robots with robotic pilot, and robotic pilots that are quite primitive compared to what the bicentennial man was expected to be able to do such would not be sufficiently common to be played. Even if you could you would still have to contend with corporations wanting to see how you work, and corporations a lot les moral than the one in bicentennial man.

Edward

[hermit]

The robo-Johnson's cover is immediately blown by the group's mage ("No Aura?"). Then, the group's rigger can hijack the drone/bot Johnson and check it's memory, and whammmo, paranoid entity exposed.

And yes, the Robo-J has quite the price tag. I'd expect that only from an eccentric billionnaire who lives secluded from the world, surrounded by robots only (including GitS-ish sex dolls and security bots).

You know, like Willian Gates III. :D

The Deus way of brainwashing one's pawns is far more effective. Not to mention Winternight's way of making people do what they want them to. :)

And on a final word on Asimov's robots: I have always wondered why they're so very, very moral. I doupt any truely self-aware and intelligent being would always follow such a strict moral code. Sure, they're engineered, but they will encounter situations where the right thing to do to further whatever goals they are pursuing and the morals collide, and they will need to overcome the morals, or bend them a bit, to achieve their goal. And what can be bent, can be broken.

[hyzmarca]

The robo-Johnson's cover is immediately blown by the group's mage ("No Aura?"). Then, the group's rigger can hijack the drone/bot Johnson and check it's memory, and whammmo, paranoid entity exposed.

And yes, the Robo-J has quite the price tag. I'd expect that only from an eccentric billionnaire who lives secluded from the world, surrounded by robots only (including GitS-ish sex dolls and security bots).

You know, like Willian Gates III. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The Deus way of brainwashing one's pawns is far more effective. Not to mention Winternight's way of making people do what they want them to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And on a final word on Asimov's robots: I have always wondered why they're so very, very moral. I doupt any truely self-aware and intelligent being would always follow such a strict moral code. Sure, they're engineered, but they will encounter situations where the right thing to do to further whatever goals they are pursuing and the morals collide, and they will need to overcome the morals, or bend them a bit, to achieve their goal. And what can be bent, can be broken.

A real AI doesn't have to be a self-aware ultra-coputer. It just has to be capible of learning from its experience and making independant decisions.

I wonder, is killing enemies in a video game unethical then? We're killing AIs there, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Asimov's robots are moral because they are hardwired to be. Most of them, when faced with a moral dilemma (Two people in a burning building it can only save one, ect.) simply cease functioning. The more advanced robots were able to think around their basic programing, however

My favorite Asimov story is Thou art Mindfull of Him. Two highly advanced robots contemplate some hypothetical moral dilemmas while waiting in a storage closet. They decide that it is okay to kill a human murderer in order to save the lives of innocent human victims. They decide that it is okay to disobey a low-ranking human if his orders conflict with orders given by a high-ranking human. They decide that robots are simply superior forms of human. Flesh humans are inferior to robot humans and may be harmed to protect robot human interests. Because flesh humans are inferior their orders are to be ignored when they conflict with the interests of robot humans.


As for the robo-Johnson, properiety software will protect it from the rigger for some time. If his equipment can't interface with it he can't get any info from it. And yes, it is limited to the secluded billioner and similar beings.


As for the ethics of killig video game enemies, watch Reboot. We are as Gods to to them. A force of nature does not need morality.

[hobgoblin]

i recall a story about a reaseach system set up to train a computer in conversation by basicly having people do a 1 to 1 pr a irc/chat like interface.

one day a user of said system got anoyed by the system and told it that it would be turned off, the reply was as follow (from memory): how would you like it if every time someone was anoyed by you they turned you off?

and i lived that asimov short :D

the big leap in there was when they came to the conclution that robots where humans to as then they go form being simple servants to being independent entitys 8)

[SpasticTeapot]

I sketched up some rules for this a while ago, and recently revised them. They're only appropriate for Anime- or Technomancer-esque campaigns, but they're pretty much cannon. I could E-mail them to you if you'd like, or just post them.
P.S: Asimov is awesome. I personally think a "Foundations" themed campaign might be fun.

[nick012000]

[Deuce]

SpasticTeapot:
That would be awsome, i would love to see what you have worked out..
(email in my sig)

[Adarael]

I think so far (most of) the responses have overlooked the most essential reason they're not common.

They can be built, yes. Deus and the Rigger design rules show this.

But they're prohibitively expensive, when one considers all the mods and autosofts you'll need.

[Birdy]

[Johnny the Bull]

[Demosthenes]

And Alice.
Who is another case of SR and reality parting ways in a very irritating fashion...

[Link]

[Demonseed Elite]

[SpasticTeapot]

After spending many hours revising the document, my computer seems to have accidentally erased it. (How, I do not know.) Here's a slightly less refined version; if I can dig up the edited version, I'll make the changes.
The premise for these characters that I came up with is that they are the Deep Resonance's answers to Deus' drones. Originally ordinary drones with autosoft capability, they eventually became self-aware, and modified their computer systems and mechanical shells beyond recognition over time.

tat modifications:
Intelligence -2 (fixable with suitable cyberdeck; if added, add intelligence equivalent to 1/2 MPCP rating of deck rounded up)
Quickness +1, adjusted by 2/3 MPCP rating of Deck rounded up (NOTE: movement rate based on robot chassis, not quickness)
Strength, body limited by robot chassis.
Charisma -4
Reaction modified by 3x Response Increase provided by cyberdeck

Basic Rules:
Robotic characters are, by themselves, small black units about the size of a cinderblock. These contain the processors necessary to make a robotic character sentient. They may interface with many forms of cyberware, as well as anything with a datajack, providing one is installed.
Characters must use a drone to move about. A custom-modified drone with inputs designed for direct connection to a robotic character's “brain” instead of normal electronics may be purchased at normal price; these drones are controlled as if the character was directly jacked in. Robotic characters may also operate vehicles via datajack. If a vehicle or drone takes damage while under the control of a robotic PC, it takes all physical damage as stun damage, and all stun damage that would normally be received is automatically reduced in power level and damage category by two. (6D stun turns into 4M stun).
When decking, robotic characters must use a cyberdeck for which they have paid karma. (see below.) They must use active memory for skills in addition to other programs.
Other modifications:
-Character's initiative dice are modified by cyberdeck's Response Increase number in addition to any other installed cyberware, including VCR bonuses. This only applies for custom-modified drones.
-This character type requires a 25 building points, and attribute points cost 3, not 2. In addition, the character must spend a lot of money on a robot chassis (think expensive drone), plus 150,000 nuyen for basic computer functions, which apply modifiers shown, and give 20 mp of active memory for skillsoft and autosoft programs. In addition, characters recieve 1/4 normal knowlege skills, and may not use the Enhanced Attribute edges or most physical flaws. (GM decides what can and cannot be used).
-Robot characters are IMMUNE to magic. This means that manabolt is about as effective as throwing a rubber cheeseburger, and that robots cannot use magic. They have NO astral presence whatsover, although the background count would be pretty high. (Anyone want to give an approximation?). Of course, physical spells like Fireball are still effective, and characters take double damage from electrial spells unless suitably insulated.
-To heal the character, an Electronics B/R roll must be made. (The character can make this roll, if concious.) Effects are identical to that of Biotech. Stun damage is absorbed at triple the normal rate, and many stun weapons do not harm them. (Shock weapons do physical, not stun, damage.) Trauma patches may not be used, although a character will have the central storage memory (and therefore personality) intact if overflow boxes equal to the robot's toughness x 1.5 (round down) are not filled.
-The character would be limited by computing hardware. Because cyberdecks are small and very powerful, they are the preferred method of enhancing this; a robotic character could attach one of these providing they pay for a datajack (same cost as per metahuman datajack).
-Each weapon system reqires a seperate smartlink; however, a large number of these may be used at one time.
-Because the character is a robot, essence is a non-issue, which makes sense considering that you're perfectly capable of taking over an entire battleship (comptete with fusion reactor) if you felt like it.
-To facilitate intelligence, the character must use MP of active memory equal to the MPCP of the deck times thirty for basic programs. In addition, some types of cyberware require active memory.
Cyberware Cost
Cybereyes 15mp+4mp per extra function
Cyberarm 30mp
Smartlink 12mp
Skillsoft mp of skillsoft
Linguasoft 1/2 mp of Linguasoft
Knowsoft 1/4 mp of Knowsoft
Active skill Skill rating x 40
Knowledge skill Skill rating x 15
In addition, active and passive skills require passive memory equal to four times the active memory used. Active skills may be “swapped” out of passive memory if active memory does not permit their use simultaneously. All cyberdeck programs take up active and/or passive memory, as normal.


Cyberware that may be used:
All headware (including encephalon, pneumonic enhancer, etc.); double price for Cybereyes. (multiple sets of cybereyes may be installed). 1/3 price for anything that requires transmission, such as a headware radio, or a Simsense link.
Skillwires, 1/3 normal price (you're already a bunch of wires in the first place, right?
Vehicle armor (use Rigger rules; be warned, however, that you're pretty darn slow if you pack on too much)
Smartlinks (may be used with electronic vision enhancement if laser sight is used)
Vehicle Control Rigs (1/2 normal price due to the lack of invasive surgery or neural interface required)
Cyberlimbs. Modify cost by 2/3 for cyberarms; cyberlegs normal price.

Cyberdeck rules:
Character must spend karma to "bond" to the item equal to the MCPC of the deck squared. Two may be used simulatenously, but at MCPC^3 karma cost. Starting cyberdecks cost TRIPLE the amount listed. (This is too keep munchkins from decking themselves into combat monsters, and making it so that only die-hard characters can access a Fairlight Excalibur, a deck so powerful that it would give it the effects of Wired Reflexes III plus a substantial boost to reaction, and intelligence greater than that of anyone short perhaps of a great dragon.

[Aku]

The only thing i question is the karma cost, it'd take 216(!) karma to get a baseline mpcp 6 deck, and since it seems most games start to cap out at around 1000, if you're lucky, thats almost 1/4th of the way there...

[nezumi]

I object to robots strictly out of style questions. I like the robots from things like Terminator, Blade Runner, etc. (none of whom are appropriate for SR PCs), but I'm not about to let in derelects (or however they're spelled) or some maid-bot from the Jetsons.

[SpasticTeapot]

[Aku]