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Deuce
So, this morning i started pondering the issue of "robots" in Shadowrun. Yes, i know that recently in the new rigger book "robots" were introduced...and hey! In Mister Johnson's Little Black book it makes mention of a club where most of the staff is Robot Servers....
SO...I guess the thing i am pondering IS...with how tech is going today...why are robots(not drones)so infrequint...
Why Not robot PC's?!
thoughts?

(besides calling me a cheesy Issac Asimov lover...)
Slacker
I would say there are no robot PCs or robots like in Asimov's books because AI is an extremely rare thing requiring too much equipment to fit into a humanoid form, and the robot programming has not advance for enough for it (I believe robot pilot programming is limited to rating 5 and below).
Herald of Verjigorm
A rating 5 robot pilot with all the tweaks should be smarther and more competant than most PCs. If you were to try to use one (with a very variant priority chart or BP rules), it would be even more difficult to play properly than shifters. Humans still retain some level of instict that can be isolated and exaggerated to begin to play a shifter correctly, but very few can figure out how to isolate and exaggerate a cost-benefit analysis for every possible action at every time.

So, if you were to allow such a thing (hey, it could be fun), make sure the robo-pc is a malfunctioning prototype or something to explain why it may act in completely irrational manners.
Jrayjoker
The closest thing to a robot in SR that I can think of is one of Deus' slaves. More of a conditioned sentient, though.
hermit
The reason why SR has no humanoid C-3PO droids running about is because the attitudes of society towards robots have changed, and because the Asimov-esque approach to computers - intelligent but rare - has been proven to have been a fundamentally wrong assumption (instead, they're common and stupid).

Also, Asimov-esque droids are a bit too cheesy for a gritty game such as shadowrun. Especially sicne true, self-aware AI is a great rarity in the SR universe. A maxed out robot drone may be competent as a PC, even moreso - but only in the boundraries what it is programmed to do and programmed to adapt to. Robots in SR aren't self-aware. Not even smartframes are. There're a total of three known AI, two of which happen to be different stages of development of one AI (Morgan and Meagra). Deus is the only other (known) AI in canon SR, and he has goen to great lengths to give all future AI a slant of being incredibly dangerous.

While there is no shortage of non-humanoid robots of all kinds (essentially, every drone running on autopilot could be considered a robot in the wider sense), humanoids such as the characters in AI, I, Robot or C-3PO are very rare and very, very uncommon to meet in the shadows in canon SR.

What would work within the SR world is something such as GitS' Tachikomas - a collective of robot pilots who, as a network, slowly develop selfawareness. Of course, that wopuldn't be a viable PC.

For a PC robot, who would likely have to be humanoid, there would have to be a non-canon or at least only semi-canon background you and your GM would have to work out. Good clues to that are given in the Rigger book (stats, maintainance, ect), corporate download, Shiawase and MCT sections(mainly for the background and where the robot is from) and Matrix. Also, the robot wouldn't be hard to detect even if it wore organic skin (as in Terminator): I doupt a slap of skin and tissue would have the same aura as a human being, since the Aura also shows personality, felelings and thoughts.

If such a PC would be made, it would be very hard on them to coexist with the rest of the 6th world without being sold to some corp by his fellow runners.

It's a bit like with rocket cars, though. I personally feel SR's world would become too cheesy 50s scifi with humanoid, asimov-esque robots about.
Edward
The listed technology level in SR dose not support an AI except under special circumstances, including equipment you would have trouble fitting on a lage ship, little chance on a arthreform drone.

The robot pilot listed in R3 is not close to being a true AI, conches of itself and capable of making decisions not in keeping with its programming.

You cant play one as a PC because they are not capable of true independent operation.

If your bent the rules to allow one it would very quickly be in corp. hands, corps are wiling to expend millions (of not billions) to secure an AI, more so if it fits inside the small shell of a robot body.

Edward
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Edward @ May 24 2005, 12:57 PM)
The listed technology level in SR dose not support an AI except under special circumstances, including equipment you would have trouble fitting on a lage ship, little chance on a arthreform drone.

The robot pilot listed in R3 is not close to being a true AI, conches of itself and capable of making decisions not in keeping with its programming.

You cant play one as a PC because they are not capable of true independent operation.

If your bent the rules to allow one it would very quickly be in corp. hands, corps are wiling to expend millions (of not billions) to secure an AI, more so if it fits inside the small shell of a robot body.

Edward

Asimov robots are, for the most part, limited by their programing. Very few from his US Robotics stories actually evolve anything resembling free will. The one from Bicentinial Man and the pair from That Thou Art Mindful of Him are al that I can think of and they were the most advanced AIs ever produced in their respective stories. Neither bore any resemblance to a Shadowrun "AI".


Shadowrun's definition of AI is sort of silly. The Amazon Dot Com recomendation engine is an AI. A real AI doesn't have to be a self-aware ultra-computer. It just has to be capible of learning from its experience and making independant decisions. A high rating robot pilot fits that description fairly well.
A good robot pilot with some social autosofts would be the perfect representation of Asimovs robots. They could certainly make good NPCs.

Some paranoid entity using a anthroform with a rating 5 robot pilot, negoation and etiquite autosofts as a Johnson would be an interesting plothook.

Also, one shouldn't confuse personality with sentience. If you make a social machine you can program it to have any personality you want. Just because it seems lifelike and is capible of holding a conversation doesn't mean it fits shadowrun's definition of AI. There are programs today that can hold a conversation.
Edward
And with the exception of the rare self aware robots these can exist in eth SR world, all be it with a rather high price tag.

The robotic Johnson would work just as well as a drone but you could do it ether way in your game, just remember from a corporate point of view, a arthreform with robotic pilot 5 is more expensive than a human with skill wires and a negotiation activsoft so it wont happen often,

In order to be a PC you would have to be self aware, you admit this I rare even in Asimov‘s work with the low number of robots with robotic pilot, and robotic pilots that are quite primitive compared to what the bicentennial man was expected to be able to do such would not be sufficiently common to be played. Even if you could you would still have to contend with corporations wanting to see how you work, and corporations a lot les moral than the one in bicentennial man.

Edward
hermit
The robo-Johnson's cover is immediately blown by the group's mage ("No Aura?"). Then, the group's rigger can hijack the drone/bot Johnson and check it's memory, and whammmo, paranoid entity exposed.

And yes, the Robo-J has quite the price tag. I'd expect that only from an eccentric billionnaire who lives secluded from the world, surrounded by robots only (including GitS-ish sex dolls and security bots).

You know, like Willian Gates III. biggrin.gif

The Deus way of brainwashing one's pawns is far more effective. Not to mention Winternight's way of making people do what they want them to. smile.gif

And on a final word on Asimov's robots: I have always wondered why they're so very, very moral. I doupt any truely self-aware and intelligent being would always follow such a strict moral code. Sure, they're engineered, but they will encounter situations where the right thing to do to further whatever goals they are pursuing and the morals collide, and they will need to overcome the morals, or bend them a bit, to achieve their goal. And what can be bent, can be broken.

QUOTE
A real AI doesn't have to be a self-aware ultra-coputer. It just has to be capible of learning from its experience and making independant decisions.

I wonder, is killing enemies in a video game unethical then? We're killing AIs there, after all. wink.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (hermit @ May 24 2005, 02:41 PM)
The robo-Johnson's cover is immediately blown by the group's mage ("No Aura?"). Then, the group's rigger can hijack the drone/bot Johnson and check it's memory, and whammmo, paranoid entity exposed.

And yes, the Robo-J has quite the price tag. I'd expect that only from an eccentric billionnaire who lives secluded from the world, surrounded by robots only (including GitS-ish sex dolls and security bots).

You know, like Willian Gates III. biggrin.gif

The Deus way of brainwashing one's pawns is far more effective. Not to mention Winternight's way of making people do what they want them to. smile.gif

And on a final word on Asimov's robots: I have always wondered why they're so very, very moral. I doupt any truely self-aware and intelligent being would always follow such a strict moral code. Sure, they're engineered, but they will encounter situations where the right thing to do to further whatever goals they are pursuing and the morals collide, and they will need to overcome the morals, or bend them a bit, to achieve their goal. And what can be bent, can be broken.

QUOTE
A real AI doesn't have to be a self-aware ultra-coputer. It just has to be capible of learning from its experience and making independant decisions.

I wonder, is killing enemies in a video game unethical then? We're killing AIs there, after all. wink.gif

Asimov's robots are moral because they are hardwired to be. Most of them, when faced with a moral dilemma (Two people in a burning building it can only save one, ect.) simply cease functioning. The more advanced robots were able to think around their basic programing, however

My favorite Asimov story is Thou art Mindfull of Him. Two highly advanced robots contemplate some hypothetical moral dilemmas while waiting in a storage closet. They decide that it is okay to kill a human murderer in order to save the lives of innocent human victims. They decide that it is okay to disobey a low-ranking human if his orders conflict with orders given by a high-ranking human. They decide that robots are simply superior forms of human. Flesh humans are inferior to robot humans and may be harmed to protect robot human interests. Because flesh humans are inferior their orders are to be ignored when they conflict with the interests of robot humans.


As for the robo-Johnson, properiety software will protect it from the rigger for some time. If his equipment can't interface with it he can't get any info from it. And yes, it is limited to the secluded billioner and similar beings.


As for the ethics of killig video game enemies, watch Reboot. We are as Gods to to them. A force of nature does not need morality.
hobgoblin
i recall a story about a reaseach system set up to train a computer in conversation by basicly having people do a 1 to 1 pr a irc/chat like interface.

one day a user of said system got anoyed by the system and told it that it would be turned off, the reply was as follow (from memory): how would you like it if every time someone was anoyed by you they turned you off?

and i lived that asimov short biggrin.gif

the big leap in there was when they came to the conclution that robots where humans to as then they go form being simple servants to being independent entitys cool.gif
SpasticTeapot
I sketched up some rules for this a while ago, and recently revised them. They're only appropriate for Anime- or Technomancer-esque campaigns, but they're pretty much cannon. I could E-mail them to you if you'd like, or just post them.
P.S: Asimov is awesome. I personally think a "Foundations" themed campaign might be fun.
nick012000
QUOTE (hermit)
Robots in SR aren't self-aware. Not even smartframes are. There're a total of three known AI, two of which happen to be different stages of development of one AI (Morgan and Meagra). Deus is the only other (known) AI in canon SR, and he has goen to great lengths to give all future AI a slant of being incredibly dangerous.

You missed Psychotrope, from the novel of the same name. It was originally a system designed by the US military to correct psychological problems developed by the first deckers, using a process not disimilar to psychtropic IC. Following an attempt by a corp to kill it with a computer virus to prevent their competitors from getting ahold of it (because it was known by them to be responsable to have created the otaku), it turned the Seattle RTG into a UV host that ensnared every decker that went into it, and tried to 'perfect' them. It's life, and the lives of all the deckers who logged on, were saved by a group of 5 deckers who were successfully turned into otaku, and had access to the UV host.
Deuce
SpasticTeapot:
That would be awsome, i would love to see what you have worked out..
(email in my sig)
Adarael
I think so far (most of) the responses have overlooked the most essential reason they're not common.

They can be built, yes. Deus and the Rigger design rules show this.

But they're prohibitively expensive, when one considers all the mods and autosofts you'll need.
Birdy
QUOTE (Adarael)
I think so far (most of) the responses have overlooked the most essential reason they're not common.

They can be built, yes. Deus and the Rigger design rules show this.

But they're prohibitively expensive, when one considers all the mods and autosofts you'll need.

They are not that costly. You can build a Muscles A Requirement Intelligence Not Essential bot (also makes a good guard-but) for less that 100.000(58000IIRC). Costly at first look but if you calculate training, salery and equipment and weight in that the bot can carry a HMG it becomes a bargain. Granted, it's not an Anthrophorm (it's a Walker)

As someone already stated, ROBOTS don't need to have remote control equipment. So no "Highjack the BotJohnson". Now you might answer "But the owner needs access for control etc". The counter to that is a combination of a NavSystem (preferable Inertial Nav) and a piece of programming that says: "If your jack is used/the jack-cover tampered with while you are not at coordinates x:y, explode the cortex-bomb equivalent" Boom, no more data (And no more jobs from that corps most likely for the runner group) Based on that, BJ has a lot of advantages. Like "Maggi Joe's Mindprobe get's useless"

And my prefered one(I roll the control/manipulation and stun spells when I GM):

Big Anthromorph Robot(They came in BigOrk and BigTroll style). Always working in combination with human guards, had a body-heat simulator and looked like and armored guard. All guards had a bio-monitor. Bot was programmed with rules like:

+ If you detect chemical weapons, react accordingly (i.e TearGas-Start retching)
+ If your collegues suddenly fall asleep, simulate that behaviour
+ If they suddenly choke...
+ In combat attack targets with AV Weapons first
+ Then attack the most lightly armed target unless there is a higer thread potential

It always kept in the guard-shack so most of the time the mage didn't ascence it. Sure, the thing was costly (200K+) but the look of agony in the mages/runners eyes when the "stunned guard" opened up with his mouth laser, often getting the Mage on first pass was more than worth the price

Johnny the Bull
QUOTE (nick012000)
QUOTE (hermit @ May 24 2005, 11:40 AM)
Robots in SR aren't self-aware. Not even smartframes are. There're a total of three known AI, two of which happen to be different stages of development of one AI (Morgan and Meagra). Deus is the only other (known) AI in canon SR, and he has goen to great lengths to give all future AI a slant of being incredibly dangerous.

You missed Psychotrope, from the novel of the same name. It was originally a system designed by the US military to correct psychological problems developed by the first deckers, using a process not disimilar to psychtropic IC. Following an attempt by a corp to kill it with a computer virus to prevent their competitors from getting ahold of it (because it was known by them to be responsable to have created the otaku), it turned the Seattle RTG into a UV host that ensnared every decker that went into it, and tried to 'perfect' them. It's life, and the lives of all the deckers who logged on, were saved by a group of 5 deckers who were successfully turned into otaku, and had access to the UV host.

He's also forgetting Mirage.
Demosthenes
And Alice.
Who is another case of SR and reality parting ways in a very irritating fashion...
Link
QUOTE
I sketched up some rules for this a while ago, and recently revised them. They're only appropriate for Anime- or Technomancer-esque campaigns, but they're pretty much cannon. I could E-mail them to you if you'd like, or just post them.


Post 'em. It adds to the discussion and I wouldn't mind having a look.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
He's also forgetting Mirage.


Mirage and Psychotrope are one in the same. He's right that there are three known AIs: Mirage/Psychotrope, Morgan/Megaera, and Deus. There are a number of other known or rumored "anomalies" (Alice, Mitch, Renny, etc, etc.) but they aren't AI in the same way as those other three.

Anyway, I'd love to see more in the way of robotics. I loved the Deus drones because they looked at drones and robotics in a new way, and I just love bizarre robotics/drones.
SpasticTeapot
After spending many hours revising the document, my computer seems to have accidentally erased it. (How, I do not know.) Here's a slightly less refined version; if I can dig up the edited version, I'll make the changes.
The premise for these characters that I came up with is that they are the Deep Resonance's answers to Deus' drones. Originally ordinary drones with autosoft capability, they eventually became self-aware, and modified their computer systems and mechanical shells beyond recognition over time.

tat modifications:
Intelligence -2 (fixable with suitable cyberdeck; if added, add intelligence equivalent to 1/2 MPCP rating of deck rounded up)
Quickness +1, adjusted by 2/3 MPCP rating of Deck rounded up (NOTE: movement rate based on robot chassis, not quickness)
Strength, body limited by robot chassis.
Charisma -4
Reaction modified by 3x Response Increase provided by cyberdeck

Basic Rules:
Robotic characters are, by themselves, small black units about the size of a cinderblock. These contain the processors necessary to make a robotic character sentient. They may interface with many forms of cyberware, as well as anything with a datajack, providing one is installed.
Characters must use a drone to move about. A custom-modified drone with inputs designed for direct connection to a robotic character's “brain” instead of normal electronics may be purchased at normal price; these drones are controlled as if the character was directly jacked in. Robotic characters may also operate vehicles via datajack. If a vehicle or drone takes damage while under the control of a robotic PC, it takes all physical damage as stun damage, and all stun damage that would normally be received is automatically reduced in power level and damage category by two. (6D stun turns into 4M stun).
When decking, robotic characters must use a cyberdeck for which they have paid karma. (see below.) They must use active memory for skills in addition to other programs.
Other modifications:
-Character's initiative dice are modified by cyberdeck's Response Increase number in addition to any other installed cyberware, including VCR bonuses. This only applies for custom-modified drones.
-This character type requires a 25 building points, and attribute points cost 3, not 2. In addition, the character must spend a lot of money on a robot chassis (think expensive drone), plus 150,000 nuyen for basic computer functions, which apply modifiers shown, and give 20 mp of active memory for skillsoft and autosoft programs. In addition, characters recieve 1/4 normal knowlege skills, and may not use the Enhanced Attribute edges or most physical flaws. (GM decides what can and cannot be used).
-Robot characters are IMMUNE to magic. This means that manabolt is about as effective as throwing a rubber cheeseburger, and that robots cannot use magic. They have NO astral presence whatsover, although the background count would be pretty high. (Anyone want to give an approximation?). Of course, physical spells like Fireball are still effective, and characters take double damage from electrial spells unless suitably insulated.
-To heal the character, an Electronics B/R roll must be made. (The character can make this roll, if concious.) Effects are identical to that of Biotech. Stun damage is absorbed at triple the normal rate, and many stun weapons do not harm them. (Shock weapons do physical, not stun, damage.) Trauma patches may not be used, although a character will have the central storage memory (and therefore personality) intact if overflow boxes equal to the robot's toughness x 1.5 (round down) are not filled.
-The character would be limited by computing hardware. Because cyberdecks are small and very powerful, they are the preferred method of enhancing this; a robotic character could attach one of these providing they pay for a datajack (same cost as per metahuman datajack).
-Each weapon system reqires a seperate smartlink; however, a large number of these may be used at one time.
-Because the character is a robot, essence is a non-issue, which makes sense considering that you're perfectly capable of taking over an entire battleship (comptete with fusion reactor) if you felt like it.
-To facilitate intelligence, the character must use MP of active memory equal to the MPCP of the deck times thirty for basic programs. In addition, some types of cyberware require active memory.
Cyberware Cost
Cybereyes 15mp+4mp per extra function
Cyberarm 30mp
Smartlink 12mp
Skillsoft mp of skillsoft
Linguasoft 1/2 mp of Linguasoft
Knowsoft 1/4 mp of Knowsoft
Active skill Skill rating x 40
Knowledge skill Skill rating x 15
In addition, active and passive skills require passive memory equal to four times the active memory used. Active skills may be “swapped” out of passive memory if active memory does not permit their use simultaneously. All cyberdeck programs take up active and/or passive memory, as normal.


Cyberware that may be used:
All headware (including encephalon, pneumonic enhancer, etc.); double price for Cybereyes. (multiple sets of cybereyes may be installed). 1/3 price for anything that requires transmission, such as a headware radio, or a Simsense link.
Skillwires, 1/3 normal price (you're already a bunch of wires in the first place, right?
Vehicle armor (use Rigger rules; be warned, however, that you're pretty darn slow if you pack on too much)
Smartlinks (may be used with electronic vision enhancement if laser sight is used)
Vehicle Control Rigs (1/2 normal price due to the lack of invasive surgery or neural interface required)
Cyberlimbs. Modify cost by 2/3 for cyberarms; cyberlegs normal price.

Cyberdeck rules:
Character must spend karma to "bond" to the item equal to the MCPC of the deck squared. Two may be used simulatenously, but at MCPC^3 karma cost. Starting cyberdecks cost TRIPLE the amount listed. (This is too keep munchkins from decking themselves into combat monsters, and making it so that only die-hard characters can access a Fairlight Excalibur, a deck so powerful that it would give it the effects of Wired Reflexes III plus a substantial boost to reaction, and intelligence greater than that of anyone short perhaps of a great dragon.
Aku
The only thing i question is the karma cost, it'd take 216(!) karma to get a baseline mpcp 6 deck, and since it seems most games start to cap out at around 1000, if you're lucky, thats almost 1/4th of the way there...
nezumi
I object to robots strictly out of style questions. I like the robots from things like Terminator, Blade Runner, etc. (none of whom are appropriate for SR PCs), but I'm not about to let in derelects (or however they're spelled) or some maid-bot from the Jetsons.
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (Aku)
The only thing i question is the karma cost, it'd take 216(!) karma to get a baseline mpcp 6 deck, and since it seems most games start to cap out at around 1000, if you're lucky, thats almost 1/4th of the way there...

I don't know where you're getting the 216 karma. A MPCP 6 deck would cost 36 karma; two used simultaneously would be 216.
Also, MCPC is a typo; it should be MPCP.
Aku
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
QUOTE (Aku @ May 25 2005, 01:14 PM)
The only thing i question is the karma cost, it'd take 216(!) karma to get a baseline mpcp 6 deck, and since it seems most games start to cap out at around 1000, if you're lucky, thats almost 1/4th of the way there...

I don't know where you're getting the 216 karma. A MPCP 6 deck would cost 36 karma; two used simultaneously would be 216.
Also, MCPC is a typo; it should be MPCP.

That would be MPCP^2, you wrote MPCP^3, thus, where i got my number from (6*6*6)
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 25 2005, 11:32 AM)
Character must spend karma to "bond" to the item equal to the MCPC of the deck squared. Two may be used simulatenously, but at MCPC^3 karma cost.

If you'd read, you'll notice he said both.
Aku
Ahhh, crappers, ya know, for loving games, my reading has really taken a pot shot lately...
SpasticTeapot
As stated earlier, these rules are in need of refinement, so I'd apprieciate any comments you might care to make. I've yet to playtest them much either, so if any of you feel like making up a character based on the above guidelines, I'd be quite grateful; I'm also in need of a spreadsheet or program for the creation of vehicles using the Rigger 3 rules.
Moonstone Spider
I wonder if a robot could actually fake an aura? Perhaps with implanted biological matter of some sort like a small amount of FAB in the recesses of the outer shell.
Otherwise I suppose the robot could always claim it's an adept with masking, or that it has a surge efect.
Herald of Verjigorm
Unless you keep a cansiter of an astrally pollutant organism onboard, it'll be easy to see that the aura doesn't match the body. If you could get enough of an active astral hazing variant of FAB 3.5, many mages will find it unpleasant enough to look at normally that they won't bother to assense the robot and discern whether it is lying about being a cyberzombie changeling.
noname_hero
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 25 2005, 04:32 PM)
-Robot characters are IMMUNE to magic. This means that manabolt is about as effective as throwing a rubber cheeseburger, and that robots cannot use magic. They have NO astral presence whatsover, although the background count would be pretty high. (Anyone want to give an approximation?). Of course, physical spells like Fireball are still effective, and characters take double damage from electrial spells unless suitably insulated.

I beg to disagree.

Even a drone or a van can be destroyed by combat spells, the TN to hit them being their OR plus modifiers... All it takes is a powerful enough Powerbolt cast at Deadly and the mage rolling high enough - the drone gets no resistance roll, so neither will this character.
If he's not considered a living entity, he has about zero chances to resist many physical illusion - again, cameras get no resistance roll.

And if you *do* declare him alive enough to roll for resistance, he'll be alive enough to be vulnerable to manabolts or mindprobes or...
...or you're creating one big hole in already complicated magic rules.

Oh - one more thing. They WILL have some astral presence, just like cars and computers and phones and cameras and pans and knives and ... have. Yeah, it will be the presence of something machine-made, something like a drone. But it shouldn't be astrally *invisible* - no things are, not even masked mages.
Deuce
I tend to agree with TeaPot on the immune to Mana spells....not really the combat spells...i could see them hurting the robot...(especially RAM isnt it?...the one that effects objects)...but mana based spells...NO...they have NO will...regardless of sentience...there is NO mana...no LIFE essence in a robot...no matter how self aware that it would become...
So noname hero, on your line of thought, should that mage/shaman also be able to heal this robot with your line of thinking?...
it is not a HOLE in the magic system....after all, can a spell like mind probe/manabolt effect a machine?
noname_hero
The problem is that a *Powerbolt* spell can damage nonliving targets. Physical combat spells, while having higher drain codes than the mana-based ones, *can* affect nonliving targets (e.g. drones). And those nonliving targets get no saving throw. So if the caster beats the TN of (8+Body+VehicleArmor/2) and the spell has high-enough Force... Even 1 caster's success means he'll cause the spell's base damage, and if he casts it at Deadly...

Those healing spells are a different category of spells - a Heal spell wouldn't work on such robot. But *some* combat spells would; the TNs would be much higher, but he'd get no resistance rolls, so whenever some mage gets even one success, the robot takes damage.
SpasticTeapot
noname has brought up a valid point; physical objects can be harmed by them. I was thinking more along the lines of mana-only spells, such as many manipulations or illusions. Mind Probe is pretty much useless against an optoelectronic device.
I, however, feel that a drone should get a resistance. My original thought on how they came into existance was that they were an extention of the Deep Resonance, a demi-magical entity. It also keeps drone players from dropping their Willpower to one without repercussion.
I personally doubt that a drone could possibly convince people that it is human. Even with some astrally active bacteria added, a robot's thought processes are simply too alien for them to be considered a human. They also have no biological material in them; a mage scanning the astral will see some bacteria, but not the characteristic karma haze enveloping a glowing bit of astral energy characteristic of dual-natured beings. Instead, a canny robot could simply masquerade as a cleaning robot; who would suspect one of these to be able to deck into all but the harshest of security systems, or to carry a pop-up minigun?
SpasticTeapot
A marvellously helpful individual by the name of Thomas helped me find some grey areas in the rules I presented; I hope to iron them out. If anyone else has a suggestion, I'm happy to hear it.
Cyberlimbs: Characters with cyberlimbs do NOT gain bonuses to overall body, and the overall strength of the character is not increased, except for cyberlegs.
Memory: With the exception of autosofts, all skills need memory, which may be purchased at 20 nuyen/MP, as listed in the core rulebook.
hermit
What about maintainance and upkeep? Energy supply costs and the likes? And the specialised robot mechanic contact needed to perform this?

Drones have 1/110 of their total converted cost in maintainance, monthly. Shouldn't robots have something similar?
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (hermit)
What about maintainance and upkeep? Energy supply costs and the likes? And the specialised robot mechanic contact needed to perform this?

Drones have 1/110 of their total converted cost in maintainance, monthly. Shouldn't robots have something similar?

Here's a version of the base rules on living areas I came up with:
Because a character is non-living and does not require entertainment, he or she pays approximately 20% of the base amount listed for living expenses; alternately, just use the canon rules for living space expenditures. (I'm afraid to say I don't own these). However, due to the amount of maintenance required, a drone character must pay 2% of their total cost monthly to maintain themselves.
Moonstone Spider
Sounds overcomplicated to me. Why not just use normal lifestyle and say the robot has to spend it on other things than metahumans? And also mention that the robot simply can't survive with less than a low lifestyle.
hermit
A robot that uses specially grafted SOTA materrials for maintainance? I mean, it's not like we can assume this SR Cmdr. Data to run on average computers, right? Thus, it should be at the very least forced to have a high lifestyle, a robot technican contact who maintans it, and a hightech deckmeister fixer who upplies these parts in the first place.
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (hermit @ May 28 2005, 06:26 AM)
A robot that uses specially grafted SOTA materrials for maintainance? I mean, it's not like we can assume this SR Cmdr. Data to run on average computers, right? Thus, it should be at the very least forced to have a high lifestyle, a robot technican contact who maintans it, and a hightech deckmeister fixer who upplies these parts in the first place.

That's why I'm having them pay double costs.
The advantage of playing most robotic characters is that they can repair themselves in real-time. They don't require specialized technicians like a cyberzombie because, unlike cyberzombies, they're just high-end computers, and they usually know enough about themselves to make a technician pointless. After all, considering that a robotic character would have had to have modified themselves beyond recognition to gain sentience in the first place, it's not illogical that they can fix themselves. And because they use ordinary cyberdecks (albiet with some VERY unusual programming), they don't really need a deckmiester.
The reason I'm not having them simply pay lifestyle is that a robot only needs an area the size of a walk-in closet. A properly equipped character will often have tools built into cyberappendages (think R2-D2), and only need a spot large enough to hold their spare parts and let them repair themselves. They don't require heating or cooling, running water, or food, so they could live quite happily in a rental storage unit which costs about thirty bucks a month.
Considering the high cost of the "drones" which these characters inhabit, 2% of the base cost will often come up to 2,000 nuyen monthly, or more. This is in itself greater than the costs of most shadowrunner lifestyles, and double that of a similarly-equipped drones.
hermit
Ahm ... how will a robot repair parts of himself that are vital for fuction? How will it patch up a hole on it's back without being able to see there, or having arms able to move to there (providing a metahuman-esque robot, of course; but an R2D2 would have a hard time blending into the S'R world, I think).

A robot not needing a technican because they know enough about themselves to make the tech useless is like saying a character who received a trauma surgeon education never willneed any street doc, because he can do open heart surgery on himself.

Furthermore, 2K? Isn't that a wee bit low? Most of my characters have lifestyles that cost around 40K and up. Yes, all these hideout low lifestyles and one or two high lifestyles, even when desgined with SSG, really mount up.
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (hermit @ May 28 2005, 03:51 PM)
Ahm ... how will a robot repair parts of himself that are vital for fuction? How will it patch up a hole on it's back without being able to see there, or having arms able to move to there (providing a metahuman-esque robot, of course; but an R2D2 would have a hard time blending into the S'R world, I think).

A robot not needing a technican because they know enough about themselves to make the tech useless is like saying a character who received a trauma surgeon education never willneed any street doc, because he can do open heart surgery on himself.

Furthermore, 2K? Isn't that a wee bit low? Most of my characters have lifestyles that cost around 40K and up. Yes, all these hideout low lifestyles and one or two high lifestyles, even when desgined with SSG, really mount up.

2K monthly may be a bit low; perhaps 2% of base value monthly + MPCP of cyberdeck squared x 100 + 5,000 monthly might be more reasonable. This will, of course, require at least one monthly run, but is that a problem?
Also, the entire point of this character is to give players something like R2-D2, as opposed to an unrealistic and efficient android. R2-D2 is essentially a drone with a few repair autosofts; he only acquired sentience by random chance. Tracked robots with small extendable arms are also much more efficient and realistic than walking robots. (Don't believe me? Consider that Honda spent millions on a robot that can barely walk better than a two-year-old, wheras I can build a robot with a drive system akin to R2-D2 with parts in a local hardware store. And my robot would beat Honda's in a race every time).
Secondly, one must consider that R2-D2 is, aside from his movie-related fame, not an unreasonable idea. Repair drones are everywhere, and many people have small drones designed to maintain and repair their vehicles. Repair droids with magnetic treads and miniature arc-welders (not unlike R2-D2) are likely a common sight on large oil derricks and similar platforms. Of course, most drones don't have assault cannons on pop-up turrets, but in a world filled with gung-ho riggers noone's likely to look twice.
Also, consider that these characters are not limited by perception of their meatbody like we are. They can see five ways at once without confusion, and because any robot character will likely have a VCR equipped, they can simply wire themselves up to an external robotic arm for repairs if they're too damaged to repair themselves. They don't need anesthesia, and they will often have miniature robotic arms inside themselves to do repairs in real-time.
hermit
A VCR doesn't work without a human brain for control and command. It is essentially a device that rerouts signals from the motoric cortex, interprets them into binary code, and sends that to a rigger control unit, which then translates these signals to reactions in the vehicle. The VCR uses standardised protocols to do that (hence, I imagine everyone who gets a VCR implanted needs some time to train their responses so they get the reactions of the vehicle right).

However, without signals coming in to compute and translate, the VCR is useless. A robot would need a 'brain' of sorts - and considering that any AI worth the name in SR needs a supercomputer of sorts to run on, I'd say the Robot character needs something very advanced. Maybe a huge databank (10K MP) in a large walker frame with maxed out robot attributes (I built such a thing, click the spoiler tag below) would suffice. Again, this would require the robot to have some sort of maintainance facility for their SOTA brains and body to be, well, maintained. +

As for gaininig intelligence, you could either go the GitS way (this example walker is based on GitS anyway), or do what Sam Verner did: A Rigger was jacked into the robot in some mission, when the thing was hit by a zapper. When the rigger died, his mental processes were stored in alrge parts on the onboard databank (he was just about to hack some computer system, unsing the robot as a relay and fopr running his program). By virtue of electricity doing strange things, the rigger's thought processes overwrote parts of the robot's code, and integrated into it, and the robot gained sentience.

[ Spoiler ]
Maimer
I have adapted a corp to a SR game I ran a while back, and the only thing they made where military style attack robots. It worked out very well. Production was slow, so the bots didn't show up that quickly or that often. The idea came from Anime that I was watching. It was Bubblegum Crisis.

Boomers are quite easy to adapt to the game. Although there primary weapon was a huge freakin laser; I adapted to the available weaponry in the game and replaced it with other high calaber weapons and found that it didn't over do the SOTA at the time I was running. I was allowing the corp to continue exploring the idea of the laser; but it was going to be a long time before they even saw anything close to what the original Anime had.

It was fun, and a twist on the game. Caused a lot of havoc with the PC's when a rival corp wanted them to run on the company producing them to get the "blue prints" so they could get a slice of the pie.
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (Maimer)
I have adapted a corp to a SR game I ran a while back, and the only thing they made where military style attack robots. It worked out very well. Production was slow, so the bots didn't show up that quickly or that often. The idea came from Anime that I was watching. It was Bubblegum Crisis.

Boomers are quite easy to adapt to the game. Although there primary weapon was a huge freakin laser; I adapted to the available weaponry in the game and replaced it with other high calaber weapons and found that it didn't over do the SOTA at the time I was running. I was allowing the corp to continue exploring the idea of the laser; but it was going to be a long time before they even saw anything close to what the original Anime had.

It was fun, and a twist on the game. Caused a lot of havoc with the PC's when a rival corp wanted them to run on the company producing them to get the "blue prints" so they could get a slice of the pie.

Coolness. Bubblegum Crisis is a popular Anime; I just had a friend of mine lend me a copy. Perhaps these rules might be useful in providing stats for the Boomers?
hermit
Boomers, yes. Boomers were, in essence, nothing more than highly sophisticated drones, without self-awareness and limited to certain services (and prone to violent behavior when treated wrongly or having software problems. Sadly, Megatech apparently used Win98 for their OS).

A boomer might nnot make a good PC, though. It is, after all, not a true AI-capable robot, but a drone, by SR rules.
hyzmarca
Unfortunatly, I haven't seen the OVA, but in the TV series Boomers were a little bit more than just drones. They were naturally sentient but that sentience was suppressed. Unfortunatly, the techniques used to do so were flawed. This, combined with the fact that their cores were based on the brain of a little girl who was troubled and emotionally unstable led to the tendancy of boomers to go rouge.

They were also made up of a combination of advanced nanotechnology, smart metal, and organic tissue controlled by a "core" that served as both brain and heart. They could integrate into any machine or structure and control any electronic system. And they could survive any ammount of damage so long as the core remained intact. This last part makes boomers especially dangerous. Who wants to face a heavily armed drone with regeneration?


I could easily imagine some megacorp devolping drones that resemble the "Seconds" from Armitage the Third. Basicly they were social drones. They were made to appear pleasing and interact with people in preprogramed ways. But, they couldn't make any independent decisions and had difficulty dealing with unfamiliar situations.

As secretaries they would be cheaper than a metahuman over a lifetime. As cold callers they would be even better, since the corp wouldn't have to pay for a face and they would never have to worry about mental stress. As prostitutes and sex slaves they are more expensive but far more legal than meat puppets.
hermit
Haven't seen Armitage, but those sound a lot like GitS androids. Well, before MMI, where technology made a giant leap forward, apparently.

And I was referring to Boomers in AD police. Never got around watching more than a couple Bubblegum crisis episodes. Apparently, Genom had a lot of interesting stufff going on in their arcology.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (hermit @ May 29 2005, 05:35 PM)
Haven't seen Armitage, but those sound a lot like GitS androids. Well, before MMI, where technology made a giant leap forward, apparently.

And I was referring to Boomers in AD police. Never got around watching more than a couple Bubblegum crisis episodes. Apparently, Genom had a lot of interesting stufff going on in their arcology.

The Seconds and Thirds from Armitage are basicly the opposite of cybered individuals.

Start with a drone then integrate organic material untill they are almost alive.
Humans are able to empathise with them more easily because that have fully organic skin instead of some synthetic substitute. Of course, this means that you don't need to buy artifical lubricant for your sex doll, either.

Thirds go a step farther. Their transistor based machine brains are suplimented by organic brain tissue that give them emotions and decision making capability equivilant to a human. They have a fully functional digestive system that suppliments their on board power supply.
They are indistinguishable from a slightly cybered human without a full physical examination .They even have a fully functional reproductive system that allows them to conceive human children and carry them to term.

For PC robots Thirds would be the best answer. They are indistinguishable from humans and alive to the point that they should have an aura of some sort. However, they would still make better NPCs since you have have to come up with special rules for PC thirds. With NPCs you can just make up stats.





Another interesting concept for NPC robots is the Snatcher from the Konami game of the same name. These are semi-sentient robots created by Soviet scientists in the 1980s. The idea was to get a foothold in the US by secretly replacing the populations of small rual towns with killer robots.

The Snatchers somewhat resemble Terminator endoskeletons in their true form. Their skulls are make of interlocking plates that can move around to simulate any facial bone structure. They can alter their heights and the lengths of their arms within certain limits. This limits their pool of potential victims to those within a specific height range.

After kidnapping and killing their victims their handlers will create synthetic skins for them based on their victim's DNA. The skin itself is imperfect and highly prone to devolping a severe form of cancer. Because of this snatchers have to have regular medical treatment and must avoid UV light whenever possible.

The Snatcher will imitate its victims almost perfectly. Aquaintances and coworkers will not be able to tell any differance at all. Only those most intimatly familier with the victim has a chance of distinguishing the Snatcher from the real thing, except in cases where it is obvious. Still, the Snatchers lack motivation and can only act on orders from their human handlers (Who the Snatchers expect to be Soviets because of their origins). Despite this Snatchers can operate independantly within the confines of even the vaguest of orders.
hermit
Both options sound quite intriguing but are seriously ahead of canon SR tech, though. Outside R&D departments of very few corps (SK, Cross, Proteus, maybe Celedyr's pet corps too, since he is into biocomputing), that is.

Which brings us back to the near-impossible maintainance and upkeep, let alone repair, of such a robot. Built in nanite generators might lept there to a point, but eventually, the robot is gonna be dealt serious damage, and then, you need a delta clinic to take care of it, minimum. And there are what, five, of these?
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