What Rules Should be in the Core Book? Options

[Ellery]

I wouldn't call that "less world information", but rather "more relevant world information". But other than that, I agree with you.

[GunnerJ]

[Penta]

Doc: Yeah, some of that could go into (the Next Version of) the Seattle SB.

That assumes, of course, that a Seattle SB is planned.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

One can only hope.

[Shadow]

[Eyeless Blond]

Well of course it is. And, frankly, there's nothing wrong with that; if the product's good, and people will buy it, then it's worth it right?

And, who knows, the SR4 book might actually turn out great; the playtesters sure seem to think it will, and some of them seem to have good heads on their shoulders. The problem is you'd never think that if all you did is read the drivel that Fanpro is releasing to the public as their official marketing campaign. You want to write snarky, insultingly vague responses to major, legitimate questions? Go write a webcomic or something so people can laugh at you. This, on the other hand, is a business, where you are being paid to provide a product, and the burden of proof of that product's worth is right now riding on a miserable few paragraphs which explain as little as possible while belittling the reader for being interested. So, your customers will be waiting for real responses, or in some cases won't bother waiting.

Anyway, back on topic. I pretty much agree with Doctor Funkenstein's list of necesities (btw nice to see you back again btw; it's been awhile). I'm really in favor of including even *less* of the setting in the main book than most people here. Honestly most of the setting can even remain fairly fluid, other than mentioning big things like the Awakening and the fact that it's 2070; the rest can really be filled in by GMs themselves, either with seperate sourcebooks or making up their own history.

This is one thing D&D does very well with its core books; officially everything's in Greyhawk, but you can fairly easily make up your own world without having to discard or change *too* much of what's in the core three books. It gives you a lot of flexability if, for instance, you want to completely rewrite history and set up the modern geopolitics to look more like the setup in Ender's Game, for instance, with America going back to isolationism and the real action happenning in the Middle and Far East, and none of these nancing dandelion eater immortal elves magically popping nations out of the ground for no good reason.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

"Of course?" Have I taught you nothing?

Sure, the game has advanced ten years since NS, and it took a decade for a new Seattle sb, but that doesn't guarantee anything.

[Ol' Scratch]

Eh? New Seattle was one of the first soucebooks to be released after 3rd Edition. If you want to chastise anything, chastise the people responsible for 2nd Edition for not doing the same (even though they didn't really need to since the information was still relatively current in the Seattle Sourcebook).

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

My point is that just because SSB was set in 2050, and NS took place in 2060 there is nothing to guarantee that there will be a SR4 SSB set in 2070/1.

This post has been edited by Crimsondude 2.0: Jun 1 2005, 06:37 AM

[lacemaker]

As to the inclusion of world information: I think the key think is to focus on including the micro (street level as it's called on these boards) stuff. The game doesn't work out of the box for newbies unless they have some idea of what Shadowruners actually do , and in the originally first edition book you basically had to piece that together from quotes and examples - food fight wasn't exactly much help, and nor was the pretty awful fiction (drive to the cyber terminal, deck, get discovered, run away shooting). As a starting player I don't need to know who the mayor of seattle is, let alone much of the geopolitical structure of the UCAS, but I do need to know what the world I'm walking through looks like, and what kind of a response I'll get from the police to carrying weapons around. That kind of thing is fundamental to how a game plays.

On that basis, I don't like the D&D approach of putting a rules toolkit to create a campaign world in one box and a finished campaign in another. Shadowrun is a rich setting where the rules (broadly defined) interact with the milleu - what you'd get if you turned a GM loose knowing only that there was magic and some corporations would be infinitely different and much blander. There needs to be at least enough flavour material to convey what the world looks like to street level Seattle runners - the lifestyle stuff is great - the rest can follow.

[hermit]

I sure hope they put the lifestyle rules from SSG into the main book instead of the fixed "high, low, street" lifestyles they had in SR3. So much more flexible, so much eassier to fit life styles to a specific character's needs, with them.

[Critias]

Squatter, Low, Medium, High, is way more streamlined, though.

[hermit]

[Critias]

Because you're picking from one of five options, period/paragraph, instead of picking from one of five options for (however many) specific traits/categories (security, location, entertainment, whatever).

I mean, picking from one of five once is, almost by definition, simpler than picking from one of five many times. I'm not sure what's unclear about that.

I'm not saying I like the simpler system better, or that I think it should be used. I'm just saying it is simpler, and that's, by all accounts what they're gunning for.

[Nikoli]

Maybe a better description of the lifestyles and what they typically entail, maybe a "Day in the life" set-up with 2 examples per lifestyle, one for the wageslave and one for the runner, to get an idea of how the other half might live and how the fit into their lifestyle differently.

I agree, the vast majority of the geopolitical crap can be summed up with a scream-sheet detailing the major players for the 'plex, from the governor down, probably not all the elected officials, but enough that when the fluff text comes out in the 4th ed Seattle sourcebook GM's won't have to go "Uh guys, the mayor Redmond isn't Smith, it's Johanson, at least acording to this new book" what we don't need is to know that Johanson went to school with the bastard child of the governors 2nd cousin, twice removed.

I'd also like to see some more GM tools, like random personality quirks tables, tips on Johnson professionalism, a revision and reprint of the runs on the fly tables from Mr.JLBB, some system for determining what a run is worth and what runners are worth (if skills and reputation make the runner, then there should be a formula of some kind or guidelines to gauge what a Johnson is willing to pay based on skill set and rarity of the skill), and gear prices that make sense when compared to the pay of a typical run. (if a typical 'beginner' run is 4k total, then the challenges set forth in the run should not require 10k in materials to complete)

[Jrayjoker]

Lifestyle is infinitely variable within the Squatter -> Luxury spectrum. You just have to be creative about it. I don't think the new eddition would be well served by including the higher complexity of SSG rules for lifestyle.

That being said, I prefer to use them myself, but I have the luxury of learning SR incrementally over the last 12 years. If the target is new players I doubt the added text and complexity are worthwhile.

Broad strokes of the politics of the world and a closer look at the politics/corporate interaction in Seattle may be beneficial.

[hermit]

Well, during my 15 years of SR gaming, I never got around really learning the matrix or rigger rules properly, and though my main character IS a rigger, I've always been the first to scream about cutting down on them.

My main beef with these rules was the underlying bureaucracy in them. I couldn't figure out why my standing drone has to make four more tests in order to do what any Sam does (shoot things) every turn. I never saw why matrix combat had to work substantially different from real combat since SR3.

I have, however, never seen anyone not understanding the concept of edges and flaws that melded seamlessly into the point-buy chargen system. Since the SSG lifestyle rules do exactly the same thing again, I see not how they're not streamlined - as in, using the same basic mechanism - in respect to the rest of the chargen system.

I wasn't saying they're the simpler set of rules, because they aren't. I was saying they're in line with the pointbuy system. Hence, they're using the same core mechanism and thus, are streamlined. Note that this, not making all rules shorter than two sentences, is the stated goal of SR4.

[Jrayjoker]

[hermit]

I like to think I'm a fair and nice GM too, and still managed to make a member of my gaming group feel fucked over enough that she refuses to participate in any session where I GM (and the worst part is, I don't even understand what I did to her). Hence my preference for rules that allow lifestyle customisation over GM rulings. Gives players the assurance (whether or not it may actually be so) that there's a standard everyone is held up to.

[Jrayjoker]

[hermit]

Hell no. I'd never fuck over someone like that.

And I have asked her, all I got was "I just can't come to terms with your GMing style". Whatever. Don't want to pressure her though; she's got one hell of a temper AND is really good at carrying grudges.

[Jrayjoker]

Sounds like she has put more value on being friends than playing under your watchful gaze.

[hermit]

Yep. Still, I dunno what precisely I did to her .... and because fo such things happening, I have my preference for rules on, say, balanced and expanded lifestyles.

[Jrayjoker]

There it is then. Always nice to see someone that can sepparate friendship from small annoyances.