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Shadow
Crimsonondude mentioned something in another thread that I wanted to expound on, but I didn't want to hi-jack the thread. In general what rules should be in a core book? What should they include. Let's cover everything, leave nothing out! I will try to put down all the ones I can think of.

Rules
  • General Concepts
  • Stats
  • Character Creation
  • Skill
  • Lifestyles
  • Combat
  • Vehicles
  • Magic
Crimsondude 2.0
Huh?

I know I suggested for the SR3R folks that a better organization (like having all the rules in one section and all gear in another) and index would be nice, but you've got my drawing a blank as to anything else that may be related to this.
Shadow
Specifically it was that the Jumping rules were not in the core book. This got me thinking, what other rules out there were in another book that should have been in the core book.

And what are your thoughts on organization, how should it be done?
Eldritch
Um - decking? Or, excuuuuse mee - Hacking *blah*

Put the jumping, swiming, sky diving, scuba rules under the skills section.

Wireknight
Off the top of my head...

Character generation, character advancement, all attributes, all skills (if you can think of it coming into play in a game without too much specialization, it should be a skill in the main book), all routine applications of those aforementioned skills (i.e. Jumping), basic combat, martial arts, basic magic, basic hacking, basic adept rules, basic technomancer rules, rules for initiation/submersion (along with enough metamagics to keep magicians, technomancers, and adepts happy out to grade 3 or so), as well as bioware (cultured and regular; it's one table and a paragraph), cyberware (used, alphaware, betaware, deltaware; see bioware, the rules are not that complex), nanotech, diseases, drugs, addiction/recovery, some basic vehicles and drones, and a good listing of some common critters (all normals and paranormals such as spirits (necessary for magic), ghouls, devil rats, shedim, merrow, barghests, and hellhounds).

I think that about covers what the main book should encompass.
the_dunner
Wireknight's list is a pretty nice summary. However, I'd withhold Beta/Deltaware and Initiation/Submersion. These aren't available to starting characters, so aren't necessary for a beginning character.

I'd also choose to not include Martial Arts. Those rules will complicate melee combat significantly. Melee combat has always been complicated enough in Shadowrun. Adding a bunch of rules exceptions scares off new players.
Sren
While I don't know about submersion, under the current system, and mage who absolutely cannot initiate (if the rules didn't exist) is pretty useless after the first twenty to thirty karma. Masking and Shielding are absolutely required for a shadowrunner, and pretty darned necessary for any other spellslinger in the sixth world. Unless the new system makes these options available without intitiation (which would likely mean that they just replaced initiation with something else), then making the player wait until another book comes out (or making him wait until the GM buys and reads another book) isn't particularly fair if all of the mechanics for advancement of other archatypes is available in the main book, so the mage is limited to new spells or advancement in non-magical skills, while the sammy can get new ware or new combat skills, adepts can buy new power points, hackers can get new gear, and riggers (now just hackers with a focus on vehicles frown.gif ) can get new ware or vehicles. Without intitiation, there's just no real path for advancement for a spellcaster. But if you want spellcasters to be weaker (which seems to be the general consensus), then the intitiation rules don't need to be in the main book. (But I'd still really like to see them there).
Crimsondude 2.0
I'd add damage and healing, but take it out of combat.

If there aren't basic rules for an active skill, eliminate it. What's the point of having Athletics when there are no Athletics rules in the core SR3 book? The information we do get for skills like Stealth and the Charisma-linked skills is overwritten. You could probably get away with a table and bullet points for each skill. The firearms and Melee skills get their basic description in the Skills chapter as well, but those rules do not cover weapon mods. That's what Combat or Gear chapters are for. Make Body Armor (B/R) an Active Skill like every other B/R skill. Explain the difference between Electronics and (B/R) for the slow. Include SUT, but make it mean something. Right now the only TN mods are for how one communicates, as opposed to actually knowing anything about the situation.

Combat should include basics on Tactics. Include a set of tactics knowledge skills to differentiate from Police, Security, etc. Procedures like the SWAT Tactics KS the Weapons Specialist has in SR3.
Critias
QUOTE (Sren)
While I don't know about submersion, under the current system, and mage who absolutely cannot initiate (if the rules didn't exist) is pretty useless after the first twenty to thirty karma. Masking and Shielding are absolutely required for a shadowrunner, and pretty darned necessary for any other spellslinger in the sixth world. Unless the new system makes these options available without intitiation (which would likely mean that they just replaced initiation with something else), then making the player wait until another book comes out (or making him wait until the GM buys and reads another book) isn't particularly fair if all of the mechanics for advancement of other archatypes is available in the main book, so the mage is limited to new spells or advancement in non-magical skills, while the sammy can get new ware or new combat skills, adepts can buy new power points, hackers can get new gear, and riggers (now just hackers with a focus on vehicles frown.gif ) can get new ware or vehicles. Without intitiation, there's just no real path for advancement for a spellcaster. But if you want spellcasters to be weaker (which seems to be the general consensus), then the intitiation rules don't need to be in the main book. (But I'd still really like to see them there).

I...do you really think Initiation is the only thing a mage wants/needs/lusts madly after karma for?

Seriously?
Charon
QUOTE (Sren)
While I don't know about submersion, under the current system, and mage who absolutely cannot initiate (if the rules didn't exist) is pretty useless after the first twenty to thirty karma.

You just say that because you've been spoiled.

I've played my first campaign with nothing but SR2. 250 karma later and lo and behold, the mage is still useful. Observe how the inability to initiate translates into higher sorcery skill and an increase in the spell repertoire.

---

What subject I want covered in SR4? Hum, the same as in SR3 would be just fine.
Wireknight
While initiation/submersion and metamagic/echoes are not available in creation, they tend to be among the first things a magically active or otaku character will acquire when they have earned sufficient good karma. They're used often enough that I'd say they deserve introduction in the core rulebook.

As far as not introducing customization grades for cyberware/bioware... why not? Last I checked, they required two paragraphs of information (one flavor/explanation, one in-game explanation) and one table (essence multiplier, availability increase, street index increase, cost multiplier). It's better to toss them in with the other augmentation rules, than to force people to wait months for a book that will show them the half-page of data necessary to employ customized cyberware and cultured bioware.
Crimsondude 2.0
I like the idea of adding Initiation and metamagic unless they decide that maybe ever new magical abilities doesn't need to be a metamagic (something that they could have figured out, oh, about 8 years ago with Awakenings adding "new" metamagics that were in fact modified abilities already possessed by Initiates.)

But, hmm... SR4 won't need SB updates since everything before it is "obsolete." Add a section on what each Attribute is used for, and how they are linked to Skills. Leave the Skills section for how to use them.

I really think that the book could be as long with more rules if they just wrote more concisely than they current do. You don't need a page and a half to describe each firing mode. A table and a a couple of short paragraphs is plenty. Put all of the ammunition information in the Street Gear chapter. In Combat, it just takes up space. Same with the melee weapons and everything else that can be considered "Gear."
Ol' Scratch
Beyond most of what others have said, here's what I'd really like to see.

* Cross-Referenced Index -- Despite the apparent disagreement of the industrusy, the core rulebooks are technical and reference manuals. Treat them as such, complete with a heavily cross-referenced index and table of contents. Including chapter summaries and subsection notes in the corner of each page is also highly desireable for this very reason.

* Organization -- This is probably the biggest fault of every previous edition -- piss-poor organization of the material. Not only should everything be cross-referenced, but they should be put in the proper place to begin with. A little note to check a more appropriate part of the book (as opposed to checking a more obscure part of the book as is currently the case, at least when we're lucky enough to get one) is extremely important as far as I'm concerned.

* Exhaustive Examples -- Too many examples are far more useful than too few, and a single example is more useful than several paragraphs trying to describe how a rule works. Double checking to make sure each example is accurate and practical is also important.

* Construction Rules -- This is more of a development "essential" than a core rulebook one. Basically, if you're going to use construction rules for anything in the game (be they spells, firearms, vehicles, or anything else), cook them up before you actually work on creating any spells, firearms, vehicles, and the like... then build them according to those rules. Only the most vital and common items should be in the core book, but they should be consistant with any future additions to the game, including any construction rules themselves (as opposed to hobnobbing some construction rules after trying to reverse engineer what you cooked up).

* Take Your Fragging Time -- Deadlines suck. Why people set unrealistic ones for themselves then throw together a rushed piece of work, I have no idea. Seriously, when's the last time a book has been put out on time? Even if it has, that's a rare exception to the "rule" -- so whatever rationalization you have for doing so is rendered completely moot by the lack of a ability to see it through, so why bother? Finish the product, then sell it. Yes, you may lose a tiny bit of profit the first time you do it to set the stride, but once you do all future products will be of a higher calibur, thereby increasing your reputation, thereby increasing your fanbase, and thereby increasing your sales. No one wants to buy craptacular work, yet that's what this type of ridiculous business model encourages. I know this will never happen, but I can desire it if I wanna. nyahnyah.gif Damn lazy bastards.

* Basic Rules Infrastructure -- Include all the basic rules in the game. Yes, that includes things like initiation, metamagic, and edges/flaws regardless of the fact that they were always treated as an accessory to the main rules. Don't kid yourselves into believing otherwise... they are basic rules. As made abundantly clear time and time again, a lot of people tend to confuse these "accessories" as "overpowered" and the like simply because they weren't included with the core rules -- and, quite frankly, that's the only reason they really have to back up those silly claims (aside from the few individual items that do tend to be legitimately overpowered... as opposed to the rules themselves). Don't try and include every single item, however... just make sure the rules governing how they work are included and accounted for.

* Less World Information -- This is a core rulebook. Describing what the game is about (such as what a shadowrunner is, what they do, and how they do it) is one thing, including information about the setting is something else entirely unless this was a 1st Edition of the game. The book should focus on character creation and rules, not setting information. That's what other, more dedicated books, are for.

* No $#*@ing Conversion Rules -- Don't waste space with conversion rules. They're only useful for the first week at most, and only for a small minority for past customers. For everyone else, especially new players, it's a total waste of space that could be used for something that's not only more important, but more lasting. Conversion rules should be offered as a free flyer and/or put on a website, maybe with a footnote about its existance somewhere appropriate in the book.

Those are the most important things that I'd want to see, though I highly doubt any of them will come true save, possibly, for the second one.
Ellery
That list sounds great (and the reasoning makes sense), except for the world information. The core rulebook is also the book that is supposed to draw new customers into the world. And that has as much to do with setting as rules (probably a lot more so in SR4, since the rules will be more typical). So they need to take the space to describe how cool the SR world is to play in. Some short fiction to set the mood, some history to give context, and so on.

Does this mean that critical core rules should be set aside in favor of flavor? No! Either the book should be longer, or the descriptions of the rules should be more concise, in order to make room.

P.S. I thought it had already been announced that there would not be conversion rules? Plus, with this kind of reworking of the rules, anything beyond "make your character over again using all their earned karma and 4 new build points for every 3 old build points you used, or 160 points if you used the priority system" is unlikely to work well. You don't want to print something in the main book that's basically guaranteed to work poorly if at all.
hermit
They said they'd publish conversion rules on their internet site some time after SR4's release.
SirBedevere
Doc. Funkenstein, your list should be required reading for all game developers. cool.gif
mfb
i agree with everything except the "world info" bullet. i think less information should be presented on SR's past, but much much more information should be presented on SR's present. fewer essay-style "i am a dwarf" sections, more short stories that describe the world.
audun
Doc, it's a good list, but world info is the core of the SR setting. Of course, not every bit of info is, but the How it come to pass-section is a good introduction to the SR world. It's not necessary for you, since you know the world in and out, but for new players it's the game.
Any you can't do without deadlines. Unrealistic deadlines is of course a bad habit, but without deadlines nothing would be written. Taking the time required for development, writing, editing and proofreading is a good idea, but as long as there are several people working on the project you need deadlines to get them done.
mfb
i disagree, about the It Came to Pass section. sitting down and explaining how the future came to be is the earmark of cheap sci-fi. put It Came to Pass online, somewhere; don't put it in the main book.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (mfb)
i agree with everything except the "world info" bullet. i think less information should be presented on SR's past, but much much more information should be presented on SR's present. fewer essay-style "i am a dwarf" sections, more short stories that describe the world.

I agree. I also think the "I am a <fill in the blank metatype>" was lame filler.
Critias
How it happened can be in some other book. How it is is absolutely vital setting information, necessary for getting the tone, feel, and image right.
Crimsondude 2.0
Indeed.

Just a simple breakdown of "Who's doing what to whom, and where?" would suffice. If they are confident enough that existing users will all have access to the Internet for conversion rules, they can make another assumption about newbie's access to the "...And So It Came To Pass" article that's already sitting, verbatim from SR3, on the SR website.
apollo124
One thing I've thought should be in the main rule book is Watcher Spirits and critters that starting runners could run into, like the examples above (devil rats, ghouls, etc...) I would also like to see Ally spirits in there, but they will probably end up in the magic book, as usual.
Ellery
Much of the "how it is" material is almost useless without at least very minimal "how it happened" information also. For example, suppose you say that LA is part of CFS and occupied by NAN forces. That doesn't really tell you anything about how to play the situation. You may as well have said nothing. Are the people in LA happy? Not? Why? Who is supporting the occupation and who isn't? A few lines of history can explain all of that.

You don't need to babble endlessly about history, but history provides context, and in some cases, an ounce of context can be worth a pound of facts. In other cases, a pound of context can be worth a really big yawn. Context should be presented as it is relevant today, in the areas where it's interesting and exciting.

For example, a list of all of the presidents of the UCAS and their major foreign policy accomplishments is completely unnecessary context and as boring as a list of all the U.S. presidents and their major foreign policy accomplishments. In contrast, context that illuminates how metahumans, magic, and obvious cyberware are viewed in T6W is really helpful--lingering resentments from the Night of Rage, initial mistrust giving way to regulated study of magic, cybereye fads and the amazing utility of wireless matrix cyberware, and so on.
Ol' Scratch
When I said "Less World Information," that's exactly what I meant... less, not none. smile.gif The "Seattle and Modern Northwest" chapter in the back of the SR3 sourcebook is an example of what could easily be removed from the main rules without comprimising the point of the book. There's just not enough information there to really be useful, so it ends up just being a waste of space.

The stuff at the front of the book isn't too bad -- I've always liked the "And So It Came To Pass" since it does a remarkable job of describing not only the setting, but includes numerous adventure hooks that can be used to inspire new GMs. I'd prefer to see more information on Shadowrunners than the setting and history, though. Describe exactly what a Shadowrunner is, what they do, and how they go about doing it. Not only does this keep the information relevant to the players themselves (rather than the metaplot), but it also helps explain what the game itself is about... and that should be the main emphasis of the core rulebook.

Compare this to a few paragraphs telling you that there's a ferry you can ride along the Puget Sound along with other forms of public transportation (while simultaneously giving you no rules or actual information about it... just that it exists). Which is really more important to be in the core rules that are targeted primarily at the players and the fundamental rules of the game?
Ellery
I wouldn't call that "less world information", but rather "more relevant world information". But other than that, I agree with you.
GunnerJ
QUOTE
sitting down and explaining how the future came to be is the earmark of cheap sci-fi.


Not at all; it is the hallmark of poor expositional skills in telling a story. And if the SR4 core book were a novel, I would agree that "And so it came to pass..." is a bad idea. As it and most core rulebooks for RPGs are, basically, around 250 pages of exposition without any signifigant narrative, such a section is entirely appropriate.
Penta
Doc: Yeah, some of that could go into (the Next Version of) the Seattle SB.

That assumes, of course, that a Seattle SB is planned.
Crimsondude 2.0
One can only hope.
Shadow
QUOTE (Penta)
Doc: Yeah, some of that could go into (the Next Version of) the Seattle SB.

That assumes, of course, that a Seattle SB is planned.

Of course, there is going to be a next version of all the source books and expansions. It's how they make there money.
Eyeless Blond
Well of course it is. And, frankly, there's nothing wrong with that; if the product's good, and people will buy it, then it's worth it right?

And, who knows, the SR4 book might actually turn out great; the playtesters sure seem to think it will, and some of them seem to have good heads on their shoulders. The problem is you'd never think that if all you did is read the drivel that Fanpro is releasing to the public as their official marketing campaign. You want to write snarky, insultingly vague responses to major, legitimate questions? Go write a webcomic or something so people can laugh at you. This, on the other hand, is a business, where you are being paid to provide a product, and the burden of proof of that product's worth is right now riding on a miserable few paragraphs which explain as little as possible while belittling the reader for being interested. So, your customers will be waiting for real responses, or in some cases won't bother waiting.

Anyway, back on topic. I pretty much agree with Doctor Funkenstein's list of necesities (btw nice to see you back again btw; it's been awhile). I'm really in favor of including even *less* of the setting in the main book than most people here. Honestly most of the setting can even remain fairly fluid, other than mentioning big things like the Awakening and the fact that it's 2070; the rest can really be filled in by GMs themselves, either with seperate sourcebooks or making up their own history.

This is one thing D&D does very well with its core books; officially everything's in Greyhawk, but you can fairly easily make up your own world without having to discard or change *too* much of what's in the core three books. It gives you a lot of flexability if, for instance, you want to completely rewrite history and set up the modern geopolitics to look more like the setup in Ender's Game, for instance, with America going back to isolationism and the real action happenning in the Middle and Far East, and none of these nancing dandelion eater immortal elves magically popping nations out of the ground for no good reason.
Crimsondude 2.0
"Of course?" Have I taught you nothing?

Sure, the game has advanced ten years since NS, and it took a decade for a new Seattle sb, but that doesn't guarantee anything.
Ol' Scratch
Eh? New Seattle was one of the first soucebooks to be released after 3rd Edition. If you want to chastise anything, chastise the people responsible for 2nd Edition for not doing the same (even though they didn't really need to since the information was still relatively current in the Seattle Sourcebook).
Crimsondude 2.0
My point is that just because SSB was set in 2050, and NS took place in 2060 there is nothing to guarantee that there will be a SR4 SSB set in 2070/1.
lacemaker
As to the inclusion of world information: I think the key think is to focus on including the micro (street level as it's called on these boards) stuff. The game doesn't work out of the box for newbies unless they have some idea of what Shadowruners actually do , and in the originally first edition book you basically had to piece that together from quotes and examples - food fight wasn't exactly much help, and nor was the pretty awful fiction (drive to the cyber terminal, deck, get discovered, run away shooting). As a starting player I don't need to know who the mayor of seattle is, let alone much of the geopolitical structure of the UCAS, but I do need to know what the world I'm walking through looks like, and what kind of a response I'll get from the police to carrying weapons around. That kind of thing is fundamental to how a game plays.

On that basis, I don't like the D&D approach of putting a rules toolkit to create a campaign world in one box and a finished campaign in another. Shadowrun is a rich setting where the rules (broadly defined) interact with the milleu - what you'd get if you turned a GM loose knowing only that there was magic and some corporations would be infinitely different and much blander. There needs to be at least enough flavour material to convey what the world looks like to street level Seattle runners - the lifestyle stuff is great - the rest can follow.
hermit
I sure hope they put the lifestyle rules from SSG into the main book instead of the fixed "high, low, street" lifestyles they had in SR3. So much more flexible, so much eassier to fit life styles to a specific character's needs, with them.
Critias
Squatter, Low, Medium, High, is way more streamlined, though.
hermit
QUOTE
Squatter, Low, Medium, High, is way more streamlined, though.

How so? So long as the SSG rules are closer in function to Chargen rules, and defining the lifestyle cost isn't done by a complicated formula (and it isn't), I don't see how this should win out over baggage from previous editions.
Critias
Because you're picking from one of five options, period/paragraph, instead of picking from one of five options for (however many) specific traits/categories (security, location, entertainment, whatever).

I mean, picking from one of five once is, almost by definition, simpler than picking from one of five many times. I'm not sure what's unclear about that.

I'm not saying I like the simpler system better, or that I think it should be used. I'm just saying it is simpler, and that's, by all accounts what they're gunning for.
Nikoli
Maybe a better description of the lifestyles and what they typically entail, maybe a "Day in the life" set-up with 2 examples per lifestyle, one for the wageslave and one for the runner, to get an idea of how the other half might live and how the fit into their lifestyle differently.

I agree, the vast majority of the geopolitical crap can be summed up with a scream-sheet detailing the major players for the 'plex, from the governor down, probably not all the elected officials, but enough that when the fluff text comes out in the 4th ed Seattle sourcebook GM's won't have to go "Uh guys, the mayor Redmond isn't Smith, it's Johanson, at least acording to this new book" what we don't need is to know that Johanson went to school with the bastard child of the governors 2nd cousin, twice removed.

I'd also like to see some more GM tools, like random personality quirks tables, tips on Johnson professionalism, a revision and reprint of the runs on the fly tables from Mr.JLBB, some system for determining what a run is worth and what runners are worth (if skills and reputation make the runner, then there should be a formula of some kind or guidelines to gauge what a Johnson is willing to pay based on skill set and rarity of the skill), and gear prices that make sense when compared to the pay of a typical run. (if a typical 'beginner' run is 4k total, then the challenges set forth in the run should not require 10k in materials to complete)
Jrayjoker
Lifestyle is infinitely variable within the Squatter -> Luxury spectrum. You just have to be creative about it. I don't think the new eddition would be well served by including the higher complexity of SSG rules for lifestyle.

That being said, I prefer to use them myself, but I have the luxury of learning SR incrementally over the last 12 years. If the target is new players I doubt the added text and complexity are worthwhile.

Broad strokes of the politics of the world and a closer look at the politics/corporate interaction in Seattle may be beneficial.
hermit
Well, during my 15 years of SR gaming, I never got around really learning the matrix or rigger rules properly, and though my main character IS a rigger, I've always been the first to scream about cutting down on them.

My main beef with these rules was the underlying bureaucracy in them. I couldn't figure out why my standing drone has to make four more tests in order to do what any Sam does (shoot things) every turn. I never saw why matrix combat had to work substantially different from real combat since SR3.

I have, however, never seen anyone not understanding the concept of edges and flaws that melded seamlessly into the point-buy chargen system. Since the SSG lifestyle rules do exactly the same thing again, I see not how they're not streamlined - as in, using the same basic mechanism - in respect to the rest of the chargen system.

I wasn't saying they're the simpler set of rules, because they aren't. I was saying they're in line with the pointbuy system. Hence, they're using the same core mechanism and thus, are streamlined. Note that this, not making all rules shorter than two sentences, is the stated goal of SR4.

QUOTE
Lifestyle is infinitely variable within the Squatter -> Luxury spectrum. You just have to be creative about it.

It is, but that also means no standards to comply with. One person's creativity might be another's munchkinism, whcih in the end means a lot of GM deciding and hence, people feeling fucked over by the GM. A set of rules is always better than that, especially if the set of rules are in loine with other rules and not working on an all-new mechanism.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (hermit)
QUOTE
Lifestyle is infinitely variable within the Squatter -> Luxury spectrum. You just have to be creative about it.

It is, but that also means no standards to comply with. One person's creativity might be another's munchkinism, whcih in the end means a lot of GM deciding and hence, people feeling fucked over by the GM. A set of rules is always better than that, especially if the set of rules are in loine with other rules and not working on an all-new mechanism.

I'll agree with that. I like to think I am a bit more reasonable as a GM than fucking my players over lifestyle, even if they don't talk to me about it first. I'd RP any changes I felt needed to be made if I saw lifestyle choices as unbalancing to the game.
hermit
I like to think I'm a fair and nice GM too, and still managed to make a member of my gaming group feel fucked over enough that she refuses to participate in any session where I GM (and the worst part is, I don't even understand what I did to her). Hence my preference for rules that allow lifestyle customisation over GM rulings. Gives players the assurance (whether or not it may actually be so) that there's a standard everyone is held up to.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 1 2005, 10:45 AM)
I like to think I'm a fair and nice GM too, and still managed to make a member of my gaming group feel fucked over enough that she refuses to participate in any session where I GM (and the worst part is, I don't even understand what I did to her). Hence my preference for rules that allow lifestyle customisation over GM rulings. Gives players the assurance (whether or not it may actually be so) that there's a standard everyone is held up to.

Have you asked her and she won't tell? Seems a bit off to me. Unless of course you are the guy who hijacked someone's ally spirit and made it into her enemy. You aren't, are you?
hermit
Hell no. I'd never fuck over someone like that.

And I have asked her, all I got was "I just can't come to terms with your GMing style". Whatever. Don't want to pressure her though; she's got one hell of a temper AND is really good at carrying grudges.
Jrayjoker
Sounds like she has put more value on being friends than playing under your watchful gaze.
hermit
Yep. Still, I dunno what precisely I did to her .... and because fo such things happening, I have my preference for rules on, say, balanced and expanded lifestyles.
Jrayjoker
There it is then. Always nice to see someone that can sepparate friendship from small annoyances.
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