 The Big Picture, Why SR4? |
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 May 30 2005, 11:52 PM
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563  |
You're asking yourself why is this thread here? Isn't there another thread just like this? No. This isn't about the rules. This is about why there has to be an SR4.
I don't think I'd be suprising any one by saying SR's sales have been way down since FASA's hay day. There are many reasons for this. Most of them have to do with changes in the RPG industry and gaming in general. I think if you look at the data over the years you will find several things that have to be done for an RPG to survive. You have to release, on a some what regular schedule, game world info books that explain some facet of the game world in greater detail. These may also include additional rule or just be fluff. You also, from time to time, issue a new edition. This is especially nessasary if your game is suffering from rules blote. This is useful for two reasons. It allows important additional rules (like falling) that are not included in the main rule book to be moved there as well as general reorginisation. It also serves as advertising. It generates "buzz". Show of hands. How many of you newer additions to these boards thought when FASA went under SR was dead? I know I did. I could always find it at Walden's. Then I one day I couldn't. The local game store didn't have any books and I was told FASA went out of business. Oh well. It was a good game. I bet there are a lot of people out there who still think SR is dead. Or worse. Wizkids abortion of an idea, SR duels probably didn't help SR's standing in the gaming community. Look at what is going on this summer. There are a potential 5, Count 'em 5, source books coming out. There is a new addition. There will be novels late this year early next. Wizkids wants to make some money on this. If this latest push doesn't jump start the franchise then it's game over. Thanos |
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May 31 2005, 12:00 AM
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#2
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Actually, I only learned that SR was still alive when FASA went under and the rights changed hands. Nonetheless, most people probably made the assumption you speak of.
Now, now. Don't start fights unless you want to finish them.
There's a difference between "not making as much money as desired" and "losing money". ~J |
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May 31 2005, 12:03 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,525 |
From what I saw, the Shadowrun Duels went pretty much under the radar of anyone who was not already familiar with Shadowrun. So I don't think it "hurt" the image of Shadowrun.
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May 31 2005, 12:20 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280 |
Thats only true if the amount of money desired is greater then the amount of money needed to survive. The Shadowrun franchise is dying. P&P RPGs are a niche market as it is. Cyberpunk isn't popular anymore, and the fantasy setting is dominated by d20. Even if you do get someone interested in Shadowrun, they sit down in front of the book and what have they got? Imagine trying to play with 6 people who've never played it before. Can you imagine this? It takes four hours for a new person to make a character. Four hours, consistently. |
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 May 31 2005, 12:36 AM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
:proof: ~J Postscript: note that I'm not opposed to SR4 in principle. I think a well-done new edition would be wonderful. Positive change still isn't necessary change, though. |
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May 31 2005, 01:08 AM
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#6
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Since the avowed goal of SR4 is to streamline and make rules simple, they are trying to fix that very problem (which may have been what you were saying, I'm not sure). |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 31 2005, 01:21 AM
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#7
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Guests |
And so within the stated claim of keeping the setting relatively intact, how is the SR4 that we know of so far going to make anything better? Even if it's easier to make a PC, what is it about SR4 that it's such a necessity to revive interest in a game which incorporates aspects of a dead or dying genre (CP) and fantasy done exclusively by bigger, more well-known, more widely-played games? How does SR4 fix that? |
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May 31 2005, 01:36 AM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not opposed to SR4. i'm very much in favor of SR4. i'm also very much against what i've seen of this SR4.
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May 31 2005, 02:10 AM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Japan Member No.: 5,497 |
Not really. If you go bare bones for the new people (i.e. the priority system and just the stuff in the main book) you can get it all done in under an hour. The hard part is sharing the main book :grinbig: |
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May 31 2005, 02:28 AM
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#10
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'm all for a new edition. Just not, y'know, the new edition containing any of the changes they've told us about.
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May 31 2005, 10:55 AM
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#11
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
Likewise. |
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May 31 2005, 11:11 AM
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#12
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
This is blatantly untrue. Fanpro freelancers have said time and time again that the latest source books have sold quite well and that Shadowrun is doing very good. They have said that SR4 is a move to secure future fans as old ones retire. It is not financially necessary now but would be in 5 years, so they are doing it now. Learn the facts before you make such bold and false statement. This just really pisses me off. Let me clarify. SHADOWRUN IS NOT DYING IT IS DOING WELL, AND SELLING GOOD. This is strait from Synner, and Adam, and everyone else that has chimed in. |
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May 31 2005, 12:45 PM
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#13
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i dont know why but i dont see cyberpunk as a dying genre, much rather its mutating into something other then 80's style cyberpunk. basicly its going back to the roots of its name, people that use technology made by the system to mess up the system. but this is happening while at the same time droping the 80's themes. this hopefully will make cyberpunk ageless.
so cyberpunk isnt dying, rather its blending into the background. cyberpunk from talsorian is getting a rewrite as we speak, there are cyberpunk books out for D20 (wotc is even coming with a new cyberpunk themed book that extends on their d20modern/d20future combo). guardians of order have a cyberpunk book based on tri-stat out. |
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May 31 2005, 01:20 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
... To create a character (not the first one but A for :nuyen: ), it took me more than 4 hours to do the contacts (consistents, not just type), more than 4 hours to make sure the whole equipement - or almost- is bought, less than one hour for the rest. There should be pack in equipement to avoid spending so much time to spend :nuyen: Equipement is VERY diverisfied in SR, it is a very good point - and a flaw when thinking about all the very bases is so long. |
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May 31 2005, 03:04 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
Buy SR4 or the game you've played will be gone forever? There are many people who believe that with the creation of SR4, the game they have played will be gone forever anyway, so why spend the money? I personally am not opposed to the concept of a new edition of Shadowrun; but what I'm looking for is an edition that fixes the problems of SR3 (Encumbrance, vehicles, etc.) So far, the fragmentary information about SR4 merely addresses change. It does not address any of the problems with SR3. Maybe they've fixed SR3's problems, but if they have, why aren't they saying so? All they're talking about is change, change in areas the fans haven't asked for. All this gives the impression that the designers either don't know or don't care what the existing fans of the game want. Which is encouraging me to spend my money elsewhere or not at all. |
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May 31 2005, 03:49 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I disagree. The last FAQ specifically talked about what, in the developers' minds, was in need of repair/overhaul in SR3. Specifically it addressed the need to change the magic system. Now, whether you agree with the need for change, how the argument was presented, or with what was said is secondary to the fact that it was said. And fans have specifically pointed out the difficulties in the magic system. |
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May 31 2005, 04:03 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Thats what the archtypes are for - the newbies. Just toss one down in front of them and get playing. Once the like the game, then go over PC creation. I still maintaint that there are better ways to refresh the game, get new players, and maintain the old players than what they are doing. What they are doing now is a grasp for straws - they are hoping to trade off some of us oldtimers for a few more new players. I've help support this game for over 15 years - and what do I get? Crapped on. "Eff you old guy! We've got your money, deal with it.!" I've completely opposed SR4 since the announcement. I think some of the ideas they want to introduce are okay, but nothing that needs a whole new addition. And the more that they tell us about the more I grow to dislike the changes they are making - it's an all new game. Will it be Shadowrun? We'll see I guess. |
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May 31 2005, 05:15 PM
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#18
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Seriously. All of a sudden this week people are coming out of the woodwork and claiming it takes them four hours to make a character (or four hours just for contacts, and another four for gear, and another four for...) -- well, if it takes you that freakin' long, play an Archetype, instead. Get to know the rules and the system and the creation process a little better. I can whip up a character inside an hour, using either official method (points or priorities); it's not hard, it shouldn't take nine hours, it's just something you've got to do to get better at (just like running combat, allocating tactical pools, understanding the variable TN system, etc).
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May 31 2005, 06:01 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280 |
The only reason I brought up character creations was to point out how inacessible the game is to new people playing without a veteran. Sure, play as archetypes, except isn't the point of a RolePlaying game to have a customized impact on the world you're playing in? To play your own role?
That group of six newbies I mentioned, that was me and my gaming group. I told them "It will take you four hours to make a character, would you like to play an archetype instead?" none of them did so. We played through one simple story covering the Magic and Combat rules. By the end, there was no interest to continue. Everyone enjoyed the game and decided that becoming adept with the system would take far too much work for everyone involved. Too much work, to play a game. There are two ways of looking at SR4. You can step back, look on the bright side, and try to have a positive attitude about how the game is going to work. Or you can get upset and scream and gnash your teeth. Either way, a new edition is coming, its necessary for the industry and there's nothing you can do to stop or change it. |
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May 31 2005, 06:06 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 8-October 02 Member No.: 3,425 |
I agree with you Thanos.
Ive said similar things in threads before. SR3 just is too big, bloated and outright daunting for attracting new players in my opinion. SR4 just was the only way to push the franchise. Im not saying it will be good or bad, im just saying it really was the only way forward. People can say that SR3 sells well, and that the company are just making SR4 to make more money and thats fine... but they are a company not a charity, and more money means more products and hopefully content and success. People dissagree with this, but hey why didnt a consortium of passionate gamers buy the franchise and do it their way. If SR4 fails really badly and goes bust im sure people may get a chance to do such a thing, but i do think its harsh to accuse a company of trying to make their business a success. Also my first SR3 char took about 4 hours, that was with a GM who knew the game and 4 players who didnt. I really cant see a group of players who have noone whos ever played it before finding it remotely easy. |
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May 31 2005, 06:23 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You keep saying that, but it isn't getting any more true. ~J |
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May 31 2005, 06:44 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Agreed - whole heartedly. I got my Friest SR book as soon as 1st editional was available. I sat down figrured the basics for the rules. Next gameing session I passed out archtypes, we played. By the end of the night everyone had me place an order for the rulebook. (I worked at a shop at the time) Next game session everyone had their own characters. That simple. Not wanting to play ready made archtyoes to get introduced to a game, is well, snobbish. I don't hold it against the companies to want to make money - I just don't care for their methods. It has become an industry standard to re-release rule books every so many years in a new edition, so the fans will buy more. Why is this the standard? $$. Not just money for the games sake, but money for greeds sake - at the expense of the fans. No, they don't have to buy it - but the companies know they will. Lemmings lined up to buy the next 'great edition' of their favorite game. Go through your game collection and see how much repeated materiel you own. If you've been gamine fior any length of time, then you have some. yeah they change some of the stats, tweak a mechanic. But most of the books are rehash, copy and paste. |
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May 31 2005, 06:50 PM
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#23
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I think it is safe to say that SR4 is not merely a rehash now.
Love it or hate it, it is coming, and it doesn't make SR3 disappear. The great thing is the flavor test can (not necessarily will, but can) generally stay the same. So you can (probably) integrate the new timeline into SR3. Gear and effects...not so much. |
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May 31 2005, 06:55 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280 |
I think Thanos007 summed it all up pretty accurately in his opening post. This is capitalism, growth and survival are synonyms.
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May 31 2005, 07:25 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
This paragraph? Wheres he getting his info? I was under the same impression myself, but have been repeated told by people on the inside that that is just not true. 'Shadowrun continues to do well. Sales are great.' That's pretty much all I've heard - and I've asked. I've also searched for RPG book sales information, market share data, etc, and not found it. Nor has anyone around here been able to point out any sources. If Thanos has a source, please share.
Wrong, you do not need a new edition. 2nd printing? Sure, not nearly as invasive to the existiing fanbase. And far easier to execute.
*hands down* I'd heard that Fasa was closing and assumed that SR would end. I kept up with the SR page updates and they announced the line was picked up. Yay us.
Yeah, they are taking a huge risk here. An untried system, that so far has yet to impress. Even a lot of the 'Yay SR4' crowd has become leery. SR whas doing fine in it's little nich. There are a lot of things they couldb'e done to try and get more fans without risking their current base. Big gamble for them. We'll see how it goes |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 18th June 2025 - 04:41 PM |
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