You're asking yourself why is this thread here? Isn't there another thread just like this? No. This isn't about the rules. This is about why there has to be an SR4.

I don't think I'd be suprising any one by saying SR's sales have been way down since FASA's hay day. There are many reasons for this. Most of them have to do with changes in the RPG industry and gaming in general. I think if you look at the data over the years you will find several things that have to be done for an RPG to survive. You have to release, on a some what regular schedule, game world info books that explain some facet of the game world in greater detail. These may also include additional rule or just be fluff.

You also, from time to time, issue a new edition. This is especially nessasary if your game is suffering from rules blote. This is useful for two reasons. It allows important additional rules (like falling) that are not included in the main rule book to be moved there as well as general reorginisation. It also serves as advertising. It generates "buzz".

Show of hands. How many of you newer additions to these boards thought when FASA went under SR was dead? I know I did. I could always find it at Walden's. Then I one day I couldn't. The local game store didn't have any books and I was told FASA went out of business. Oh well. It was a good game. I bet there are a lot of people out there who still think SR is dead. Or worse. Wizkids abortion of an idea, SR duels probably didn't help SR's standing in the gaming community.

Look at what is going on this summer. There are a potential 5, Count 'em 5, source books coming out. There is a new addition. There will be novels late this year early next. Wizkids wants to make some money on this. If this latest push doesn't jump start the franchise then it's game over.

Thanos

From what I saw, the Shadowrun Duels went pretty much under the radar of anyone who was not already familiar with Shadowrun. So I don't think it "hurt" the image of Shadowrun.

i'm not opposed to SR4. i'm very much in favor of SR4. i'm also very much against what i've seen of this SR4.

I'm all for a new edition. Just not, y'know, the new edition containing any of the changes they've told us about.

i dont know why but i dont see cyberpunk as a dying genre, much rather its mutating into something other then 80's style cyberpunk. basicly its going back to the roots of its name, people that use technology made by the system to mess up the system. but this is happening while at the same time droping the 80's themes. this hopefully will make cyberpunk ageless.

so cyberpunk isnt dying, rather its blending into the background.

cyberpunk from talsorian is getting a rewrite as we speak, there are cyberpunk books out for D20 (wotc is even coming with a new cyberpunk themed book that extends on their d20modern/d20future combo). guardians of order have a cyberpunk book based on tri-stat out.

Seriously. All of a sudden this week people are coming out of the woodwork and claiming it takes them four hours to make a character (or four hours just for contacts, and another four for gear, and another four for...) -- well, if it takes you that freakin' long, play an Archetype, instead. Get to know the rules and the system and the creation process a little better. I can whip up a character inside an hour, using either official method (points or priorities); it's not hard, it shouldn't take nine hours, it's just something you've got to do to get better at (just like running combat, allocating tactical pools, understanding the variable TN system, etc).

The only reason I brought up character creations was to point out how inacessible the game is to new people playing without a veteran. Sure, play as archetypes, except isn't the point of a RolePlaying game to have a customized impact on the world you're playing in? To play your own role?

That group of six newbies I mentioned, that was me and my gaming group. I told them "It will take you four hours to make a character, would you like to play an archetype instead?" none of them did so. We played through one simple story covering the Magic and Combat rules. By the end, there was no interest to continue. Everyone enjoyed the game and decided that becoming adept with the system would take far too much work for everyone involved.

Too much work, to play a game.

There are two ways of looking at SR4. You can step back, look on the bright side, and try to have a positive attitude about how the game is going to work. Or you can get upset and scream and gnash your teeth. Either way, a new edition is coming, its necessary for the industry and there's nothing you can do to stop or change it.

I agree with you Thanos.
Ive said similar things in threads before. SR3 just is too big, bloated and outright daunting for attracting new players in my opinion. SR4 just was the only way to push the franchise.
Im not saying it will be good or bad, im just saying it really was the only way forward. People can say that SR3 sells well, and that the company are just making SR4 to make more money and thats fine... but they are a company not a charity, and more money means more products and hopefully content and success. People dissagree with this, but hey why didnt a consortium of passionate gamers buy the franchise and do it their way. If SR4 fails really badly and goes bust im sure people may get a chance to do such a thing, but i do think its harsh to accuse a company of trying to make their business a success.
Also my first SR3 char took about 4 hours, that was with a GM who knew the game and 4 players who didnt. I really cant see a group of players who have noone whos ever played it before finding it remotely easy.

I think it is safe to say that SR4 is not merely a rehash now.

Love it or hate it, it is coming, and it doesn't make SR3 disappear. The great thing is the flavor test can (not necessarily will, but can) generally stay the same. So you can (probably) integrate the new timeline into SR3. Gear and effects...not so much.

I think Thanos007 summed it all up pretty accurately in his opening post. This is capitalism, growth and survival are synonyms.

Not to stir up trouble, but what percentage of SR fanbase actually posts here, or even pays attention to the devblog?

Sure we're vocal and opinionated, we're on the internet. But we aren't the only population interested in SR. I'm not arrogant enough to assume my opinion alone matters to FanPro at all. Collectively we get a vote probably. Some of us may even know the developers and have an inside track, but the developers have to look at the big picture, too.

There's a big difference between being a "core group of die hard fans", and being a fanbase.

There are, what, about 150 relatively active posters each week? 15-20 here all day everyday?

That ain't money, that's a drop in the bucket.

Okay, I’m going to break my self-imposed silence on this board, one last time because this debate seems slightly more balanced and reasonably focused and far less rabid than some of the others.

Please note that what follows is my opinion and thoughts drawn from numerous discussions with freelancers, retailers, players, industry people on forums and chats and that this by no means should be considered either official or even representative of FanPro’s own views.

Those of you who have corrected Thanos regarding the fact that several freelancers (myself included) have indicated SR is selling well and that recent books have been consistently selling up are correct, but you are looking at the short term. However, as it’s also been said several times on Dumpshock and elsewhere, today’s RPG sales are a shadow of what they were in their heyday. Make no mistake, this extends to FanPro and Shadowrun. Part of it does have to do with the Shadowrun is dead phenomena that followed the end of FASA but for the most part it now has to do with the general state of the market. Though sales have continually grown, they’re still below what they were a decade ago.

Then there’s another problem that’s starting to crop up – a growing trend is for people to buy SR (and other RPG) books to read rather than play. In games like SR with its complex ongoing metaplots and hugely detailed setting this is particularly noticable. Another current trend that you wouldn’t have seen ten years ago is for increasing numbers of players, rather than GMs, to buy sourcebooks/setting books (rather than their "Ultimate Character Class rule/option book"). There’s a lot of reasons for this type of development but the most commonly cited are lack of time and availability amongst gaming groups to maintain a regular scheduled game coupled with an overall maturing of the gaming community (and all that hitting 30 entails) which has different priorities. A recent computer game industry survey surprised pundits by revealing that average console game player age isn’t the expected 18, but rather 27! Anyone care to guess where that places the average age for a pen and paper RPGer?

Which brings us to the other major problem facing SR (and a lot of other games too). While the aging of the average pen and paper RPG player could mean more young professionals with some cash to spend on hobbies, what it does mean for sure is priorities change, people get jobs, they have a lot less time and a lot more responsibilities, and all of this gets in the way of gaming – and people are retiring from the hobby. The problem follows that even though more people are actually buying books (and sales are rising), the overall gaming population is diminishing because new blood isn’t coming in as fast as we’re bleeding veterans. Note this isn’t an SR problem but rather an industry problem. We've got an aging population and the new generation is getting harder and harder to draw in.

This doesn’t mean that the industry is moribund (believe it or not, WotC recently announced they are selling about double what they were before 3e and the D&D market has never been so numerous) , but it does pose unique problems to companies like FanPro (or SJG or GOO or Dreampod 9 et al). Given the fact that they’re small players in a niche market (several retailers confirm WotC and WW together claim above 75% of the overall traditional tabletop RPG market) these companies can’t afford to be the ones investing in “outreach” marketing to bring new people into the hobby. Unfortunately economics dictate that’s in the hands of the big boys and it’s one of the reasons many industry people think D20 despite it all was a boon. So what can these companies do to thrive and remain viable? Well, barring an unexpected hit movie or video game, they have to go for the existing gaming community. They have to find a way of bringing people over from other games, talk relapsed players into coming back, convincing people unsatisfied with SR3 to give it another try and overall market the game to RPG aficionados - this is no small order.

Anyway what does all this mean for FanPro and SR3? Well, it means the game as it currently stood was a viable commercial product for another 4-5 years unless something was done to (i) bring relapsed gamers back, (ii) spike interest among the gamer community, (iii) poach players from other games who have shown an interest in SR in the past, (iv) draw a maturing player based weaned on AD&D3.5 and WoD (v) while overcome these people’s perception of the complexity of the current rule system, (vi) and while (hopefully) keeping enough of Shadowrun to maintain a significant portion of its current fanbase. If you can attract this new blood (from the existing community rather than from outside the game community) then SR might be viable in the long term – and the atmosphere and setting which have always been one of SR’s greatest assets would clinch it.

Whether we agree or not that the system is overly obscure for newbs, whether it takes 4 hours to make a character or not, whether we think that SR3 is the best thing since sliced cheese or not, the indisputable fact is the people calling the shots at FanPro made this decision and it couldn’t possibly have been an easy one. This is a tough moment for the industry (any industry) and we’re probably all agreed this is a big gamble. While bad decisions are made all the time in the business world, these days no one can afford to take risks without a very good reason. Consider this is FanPro’s livelihood and they wouldn’t have taken such a big risk if they didn’t believe it was necessary. Think about that. Consider the implications before rendering judgment that this is is a money grabbing scheme as some have stated. Consider what would prompt such a decision and make them take the decisions they’ve done rather than others.

People have asked why so drastic changes? Why not an SR3R? Well, the simplest (but also the most incomplete and unsatisfying) answer IMHO is that if the system wasn’t deeply revised it would find it difficult to accomplish those goals.

I submit that anything but a major revision—starting from the ground up but keeping the essentials—wouldn’t be enough. Were gamers who were turned off by SR2-3 to open the Basic Concepts chapter of SR4 and find a revised version of same things they found wanting previously they wouldn’t bother to pick it up (yes, long time fans would love it, but people wouldn’t come back if the changes weren’t sufficiently deep). Dabblers and gamers coming from other systems, willing to try SR4 out, would find it easier to pick up a streamlined system which uses the same basic mechanic for everything rather than SR3’s Frankenstein model (no matter how much you love the beast). Keeping the continuity of the setting (and rest assured we are keeping it) but giving people a clean slate by jumping to 2070 allows for a jumping on point for newbs without all the baggage we veterans all bring to our 206x games (Dunkle-who? Who’s this Fuchi guy people keep talking about? What the hell has all this to do with Earthdawn?)

Once you arrive at the conclusion (right or wrong) that an upgrade and revision isn’t going to carry the game through the next decade, then a new edition with a new core system is the only way to go. The trick is developing a system that is easier and faster to play, unifies the underlying mechanics of a dozen different game systems, offers just as many options (btw - streamlining can mean simplifying systems rather than reducing options), addresses structural problems that have been around since SR1 and plays off all the strengths Shadowrun has. Whether that SR4 is capable of doing that is besides the point. The need to do it is what I’m trying to address.

Once you accept that a major overhaul is indeed a necessity, it becomes obvious that certain problems (even some we rarely acknowledged) could be addressed differently free from the shackles of development continuity and (dare I say it) legacy systems.

For instance people ask where was the need to overhaul magic since it was one of the SR3 systems that worked better overall? Well, for one it was originally designed to be binary. And it has remained so through out all 3 editions. Traditions and mystical beliefs were shoehorned and bastardized into the Hermetic and Shamanic mechanics - even when that’s not how those traditions were portrayed in the fiction. Take a look at how MitS shoehorns a dozen completely distinct mystical and religious traditions into Hermetic magic (and its inherent game elements: elementals, ritual circles, etc) and just as many into Shamanic (witness the Catholic shaman debates)? Consider the acrobatics we had to do with Paganist/Norse magicians (in SOTA64) and the Idols to make them work when by all rights they should be equal traditions (or so goes the fiction)! And this wouldn’t be too bad (well, actually it would) if right off the bat they hadn’t broken with their own guideline with London (Druids), Germany (Idols) and Tir Na nOg (Path of the Wheel) where things started to stray and alternatives were spliced in. The inconsistencies and variants have been around since the Grimoires skewed things with the introduction of Voudoun and Psionics. But what the hell is it with Toxic spirits being toxic elementals rather than toxic nature spirits? And why Spirits of the Elements at all? Don’t get me wrong, I like all the different traditions and yes, it all seems to work. Yes, it gives certain traditions a distinct feel. Yes, it's not that harder to master once you know the rules. But is it good design, balanced and easy to learn? No.

Like the recent FAQ says SR4 hopes to address this lingering problem, just like it hopes to address the much more blatant decker issues and the rigger issues. Whether it succeeds is something else entirely.

It’s rather late here, so i'm sorry if parts don't make sense and I'm rambling. This is waaaay too oversimplified an explanation even for my taste, but I hope it at least gives some of you food for thought. Good night and see you all around.

Thanks for coming out of the cave!


I duuno, you've offered a lot of data - but if D&D is selling 3 times what they were a few years ago, how does that equate to a shrinking market? - seems like a market shift. But I could see a shrinking in the market - loosing to the Computer/console games - after all, they are much easier to learn. And kids justdon't have the patience to learn a rpg when they could sit dwon infornt of a screen and start playing right away - with full color graphics to boot!

My kids have been playing console games for years - and they just can't wait to get into rpgs - dunno if thats the case everyhere, or if my kids are just weird.

Baldurs gate and KOTR are both based heavyily on the d20 engine, my kids are completely familar with exps, feats, levels, and all that - they'll be ready to play soon, with little work on learning the rules. Maybe SR needs a good game

And with that thought in mind, a question for anyone on the inside; Was Shadowrun D20 discussed at all?

First, D&D sales do not equate to the small RPG market. There are tons and tons of D&D players who never look at anything else and are even only marginally aware that other RPGs exist. They game on the side, as a hobby, and remain uninvolved with the industry as a whole. They may not even have a core hobby/game store that they frequent, instead shopping in Barnes and Noble or Borders or Amazon.com. The brand and the company behind it have enough of a reach that they can get to that market. FanPro at this time does not -- and may not ever, realistically speaking.

As for Shadowrun d20, it's a proposition fraught with peril and increasingly small returns. At the beginning of the D20 boom? Yes, it likely would have gone like gangbusters. It would also have required a retooling of the freelancer base, and would certainly have alienated, if I may hazard a guess, even more of the existing fanbase than are unhappy with the SR4 info currently. It would also have required some serious rules inventiveness -- and FanPro is just not a d20 company.

Shadowrun d20 now? It would almost certainly take a loss. The market for d20 product has largely gone bust -- distributors, retailers and even customers simply aren't interested in taking any more chances on untested d20 product, and if they don't order it and stock it, the retailers don't sell it. The d20 third-party market is rapidly shrinking (which it needed to, honestly), and distributors are far more excited about seeing system and line diversity in their inventory than they have been for years. SR4 generates excitement among distributors and retailers, whereas SRd20 would quite likely have problems even getting on the shelves. While the potential customer market may be larger, the competition is actually far heavier and the hurdles within the industry itself right now could be crippling.

Synner brings up a lot of good points. But one of the one that really grabbed my attention also ties into the massive rules controversy.

I just want the Magic system to represent the same feel as the one that first drew me to Shadowrun. Using Magic has a fair price in Drain, but with careful harnessing, you could minimize the cost.

I dread seeing the new Drain mechanic for SR4! Willpower+Magic/+1 Threshold per DL (or even worse, per box)?? I can't wrap my head around where the mechanics are going. I wish that the Powers-That-Be (looking at you Rob!) would be more forthcoming with some real juicy bits. The teasers are just plain annoying.

I was very excited about the idea of SR4. The more I see though, the more it looks as if the whole heart of the mechanics has been abandoned, as far as tactical choice and give-and-take are concerned.

In my opinion, a system with a variable 'dice pool'/variable TN is a lot more versatile and logical than a variable 'dice pool'/fixed TN. The loss of Tactical Pools is disturbing. As is the little information I have about the vaguely aloof Edge Attribute.

To be fair, on the plus side, I like the idea of a unified mechanic (even of I don't think the SR4 system would be my ideal choice). Extra Attributes are fine, as is the idea of purchasing Magic in a new format. A unified Magic tradition creation system is a good idea, and removes a lot of unnecessary complications.

I'm still on the fence as far as the WMI is concerned.

As a whole though, I think that the basic 'feel' of the game will change, and not for the better. As some others say, I think it will be 'dumbed down' for ease of consumption, but in the process losing the very things that are what made Shadowrun so attractive to me in the first place.

I'm sad!

And just where is everyone getting these facts concerning the current state of the gamining industry? If you have a source with hard facts and figures please share. If you are extrapolating based on articles, books on the shelf at your local gaming store and release schedules, then you are just taking out of your pie hole.

I've heard a lot of comments about the gaming industries current state - some positive, some negative. It seems to me, from my light skimming of some publisher sites, review sites, etc, theat the industry is doing fine. But I'm just talkin outta my pie hole without any source of figures.



The rules are changing. The setting is changing. These are both confirmed facts. with that much change you have to wonder if you are getting Shadowrun as we now know it, If not then you're going in a blind, happy lemming.

And most of us have not been 'hideously negatave about every single thing'. Yeah, I've been critical of the idea since the beginning, but I have admitted there are a few interesting things coming out of it. Though the more of the core mechanics that I see, the more I learn to dislike the idea for other reasons.

I have to agree with Nerbert on Shadows post. A lot of what Shadow said is based on assumptions.

After reading what Synner and Lady have said, I can see why FanPro is doing things the way they are.

Think, can they implement the changes to the current system and achieve the goals that they want? Maybe.

Would those changes be radically altering the rules that we now have? Probably.

Would those changes probably draw the wrath of the players here at dumpshock? Probably.

Would the changes bring back the players that have already left the game because of rule bloat? Probably not.

Would the changes bring in new players who have heard of the current rules bloat? Probably not.

Would the changes bring in new players (the unwashed 12 year old D&D and Vampire players as you so uneloquently put it)? Maybe.

I think you (Shadow) need to take a step back and catch your breath and think about it not just from your point of view but from the others too.