Bah. Forget Rob, let's see some Adam on display.

~J

And nothing else!

since we've already proven this isn't a "jump star or game over" situation, most of your argument falls flat. Add to that , of the 5 books you trumpet, four are SR3. If it were such a bad situation why would they go out on this limb commiting such resources to a failed system?

This is a money grab by Fanpro, nothing more, nothing less. If they had just tidied up the decking rules 9again) and cut down on some of the bloat they might have pulled it off, but the whole sale extermination of the system which has been out, successfully, since 1989 is more than they can justify or outside of delusional day dreams, believe will last. If it is game over it is because Fanpro have so badly played this hand that they will alienate the existing fan base before the new base picks up. People looking ofr existing games may well find that they are encountering old hands playing 3rd ed and there is no room for 4th ed books.

This is exactly the sort of thing that can put people's back up. It can look like the marketing concept for SR4 is 'Hang the long term players. They are getting old and have other things to do. Let's ignore them and go for grabbing younger players from White Wolf and WOTC.'

I had been thinking that a new edition and rapid updating was a very good idea since I first heard about it. But the way more and more things are being said like this is starting to niggle.

And, I mean, it's all well and good when we secretly suspect that's what's going on, deep in our black little hearts. But when it's come out and said aloud (or at least never remotely denied), it's kinda sucky.

That's not the point. He could say 'Wow, this is great, I can't wait for SR4 to see print!' without violating the NDA, but he isn't. In fact, not even Patrick Goodman is saying that. He's supportive of SR4, but even he isn't enthusiastic.

And they're the only playtesters who seem to care enough to post about SR4. If none of the playtesters are enthusiastic about SR4, that's a very bad sign.

Well, that's not really the way it is. The playtesters, freelancers, etc. aren't really supposed to be posting how we feel about SR4. Our role is internal. We (including myself) occasionally do post and we get yelled at for it. But it's certainly not a case where we don't care enough to post. And I think it goes without saying that a playtester who is extremely unhappy is far more likely to not care about being yelled at when posting than one who is happy.

I don't really like how the SR4 preview to the public is being handled and how SR4 is being communicated to the fans and potential new players, but I would say it's inaccurate to say that the playtesters don't care or are all negative. I know I have a whole bunch of personal feelings about SR4, but I'm not saying anything until I see the final product.

Shadows of the underwold, anyone?

New edition of ShadowRun... Great! Maybe the rules are now explaned in such hard steel wire that a new player dont need Game Masters to translate them to plain <insert language here>.

If anyone there has looked how D&D did go from 3rd edition to 4th... i mean 3,5.
There was no game mechanical changes (except weapon sizes) but more balancing and they called it streaming the game.

Simply wonderfull if SR4 is more clearer than the present edition but if the stream lining the rules and reducing the dices means that all weapon skills are under name "firearms" and all magic skills are under "mumbojumbo" name.... Dont bother, i will not spend another 300€ for that kind of crappy edition/game.

I will not use my money or i will not advice my fellow gamers to use their moneys for edition that takes step closer to "levels & class & hit-points" based system.
SR is one of the rare game systems where 10 year old character with thousands of karma can be in serious trouble when facing a character that is 5 mins old.
There is no magical "im 19 levels higher than you, i bet the crap out of you with my bare hands regaldes of classes or items you are carrying".
You got a gun, he does not - time to read your prayers or come up something smooth and fast.

If the new edition is more clearer, balances the skills conflicts (5 gun skills vs 1 spell skill to deliver damage) and changes the language "skills" & checks to make sense, the new edition will definetly end up to my bookshelf.
I dont want to see some variation of d20 rule set spoling the name and spirit of ShadowRun.

BTW, It takes about week for me to make new character but it takes 7 minutes to toss some numbers to paper. Maybe thats why last character did see +500 karmas.

That strikes me as an odd way to playtest a game. I helped with some local LARPs, and we discovered the best playtesting was to grab a hold of all the munchkins we could, and have them shake down the system until it's eyeteeth became loose. Once the munchkins were unable to go beyond a reasonable power level within the rules, we knew we were onto the right direction.

I asked before if the playtesters have run gaves at variable power levels, and what those levels are; so far, it sounds like they've only playtested starting characters. That leaves open the question of abuse at slightly higher levels-- maybe as low as the 20 karma mark, or as high as the 1000 mark. It would do a little to reassure me to know that the playtesters have run games of varying power levels.

Interesting statement here Lady Anaka. My next set of questions (responses?) to something like that would then be:

"If they are new to the game, how did you meet this new resource group? What relationship, if any et al, existed previously? What other gaming experience, again if any, did they previously have?"

I am curious because while as a developer (in media, formerly playtester for SR3) I understand and respect the need to think out of the Box on occasion, I also remember that never should I as a businessman ever elect to violate or invalidate in any way possible my relationship with a pre-existing client.

My reason for this previous statement/basis is that I have watched the response(s) on the FAQ's as well since they were first pointed out to me by my current game group. Combined with mfb's post and the stuff I've seen elsewhere on these forums at least, I have to admit while some elements of the proposed material certainly continue to have my interest, my overall sense is that the changes being implemented were not as necessary as some may have felt.

I have to admit, being a former playtester and seeing the names of many people I know in previous editions of books, I will be interested to see the actual lists of playtesters in this SR4 book forthcoming.

I have to agree with you Cain, when we playtested stuff in the past (MitS, CC, M&M, SRC, Matrix) that was the objective we often had. Just how hard did we have to go until we broke something. Sometimes the current subject broke before it ever made it to paper. Othertimes it took considerable hammering (well okay, the hammers were dropped and the explosives were put away leaving only acidic sarcasm).

Most of my group here really has gone into the sensation of "we'll have to wait", which is ultimately what all of us will be doing. Several members of the group are running their LARP at Gencon again this year and I'm going down for a day or three (running around with another friend).

And by the way, everyone should always remember that one persons Munchkin is another persons Average Gamer.

Joy, more good news.

This is intended as a compliment. But if they want a guy to poke holes in a system, and find every conceivable loophole? The man they want is Doc Funk.

We have? Oh, you mean all those statements by the FanPro staff and freelancers. Well, I tell you what, lets split the difference. It may not be as dire as I originally posted but I know it's not as sunny as they are making out.

Thanos

Actually that would be 9 for Attributes and 8 for Skills, neither of which are attainable at character creation currently (sure you can get that many dice, but not those base ratings). I realize that they got rid of the silly Attribute Maximum/Racial Modified Limits though. Thank God for that. I'm just pointing out that 6 was never the "peak human/world-class rating" in SR3.

Not that it really matters since in the new system you'll probably be rolling more dice anyway, as an Attribute and Skill of 4 is a total of 8 dice which trumps the 6 you'd normally roll for a "maxed" starting skill rating.

Yeha, I know it'd been discussed, and presumed based on facts, but it's good to get a confirmation.

Stinky.

It has been stated that there is an artificial cap on skills, no higher than 6... or am I confusing that with the attributes?

You could easly read into this that skills will cap at 6 as well. I'm just picturing those little dots next to each and attribute the old WoD char sheets.

Hey, that alone is enough to get me interested.

I gotta say, when SR4 was announced, it scared me away from the boards for a little while. The fact that I wasn't GMing SR anymore also helped to distract me.

But I've been hearing interesting things about SR4, so poof, I'm back.

Or Shadowrunners.

(hyuk, hyuk, I kill me)