You do realize I'm still talking about CP and KP as they exist, and not making one bit of speculation of Edge or anything SR4?

Maybe you should actually read before you post.

unlike crimson, i'm not a huge fan of the system as-is. i've been wanting to see SR3 torn down and rebuilt from scratch for quite a while, now.

but i don't like what's being built. and i'm not going to support it.

We both hate the rigging rules...

heh. that's not much of a coincidence.

Yeah, just you, me, and everyone else who plays SR.

doc, the devs and playtesters have all but spelled out exactly what Edge replaces--and it's not combat pool.

Yes, but we don't know how it replaces it, how it affects characters, or even how it works. All we know is that its classified as an Attribute. Much like Magic, Essence, and Reaction are all currently classified as an Attribute... but that doesn't mean it -- and they -- don't follow their own unique rules.

Complaining about that possibility (as Crimsondude and others have) is fine. I don't understand why they'd classify it as an Attribute if it didn't work like every other Attribute either. But complaining about Edge now being an Attribute because it will -- with utmost ignorance on the poster's part in every conceivable way -- mysteriously destroy the fabric of reality surrounding every storyline ever is just plain stupid.

all i can really say is that crimson rarely posts in ignorance. he's too anal to do otherwise.

I think what Crimsondude is trying to say is that he is the master of the SR3 rules. His characters have lived and died by them. Which is actually a pretty good reason to object to seeing them dissapear.

And mfb, you said you don't like what's being built? Now, I don't know who's got an inside scoop into the production of this game and who doesn't. But unless you are on the inside, that statement is built, as far as I can see, 90% on speculation and assumptions and negativity.

MFB's mentioned in the past (in passing, rather than making a big deal about it), that he's taking part in (playing or running it, I'm not sure) a playtest group. So, well, maybe he does know what the new rules are shaping up to be better than you think.

Well alright then, I guess that falls under the heading of "on the inside".

But I am starting to get a feel for who qualifies as "core group of hard core fans" and I'm definitely beginning to understand why Fanpro wouldn't be catering to them.

Actually, what I was insinuating is that there's no chance of being catered to because your desires are unreasonable, your opinions are unwavering and your grasp of reality tenacious. But you know, whatever works.

And when I say you I really do not mean anyone individually. I'm refering to the "core group of die hard fans"

How does that not mean individually to those of us who self-identify as members of the, "core group of die hard fans" to be told our, "desires are unreasonable, [our] opinions are unwavering and [our] grasp of reality tenacious?"

Mighty big insults to be throwing at people, don't you think? Especially when said insults are made without a single... uh... fact to back them up?

I concede that what I meant to say was tenuous.

In fact, I'll concede that everything I said was tenuous.

Time for another ramble by yours truly.

I'm currently running three games. Yes, three. All of them are online.

-A Shadowrun 3E game.
-A D&D 3.5E game.
-My own storyline, free-form (minimal if any diceage) This game has existed for over 10 years.

Technically, I'm also part of another Shadowrun game and another Vampire: The Masquerade game, both of which are played during my school semester. (Old school better than new school? Case in friggin point.) I'm currently working on my book series, excerpts of that and other stories visible on my deviantArt which is in my sig. Those are all my credentials, I'm no freelancer or anything - But would I love to be? You bet.

What I do know is that it took me a full day to make my first SR3 character using Priorities. Yes, we had two copies of the BBB to cut time down. Gear took forever. I also know that while trying to design a character for someone who wanted 1 million nuyen, the cyberware alone took four hours. I admit, the kid is a candidate for ADD. I also admit this kid never played a single run. We never got to that.

Shadowrun characters being generated online (not using NSRCG, which cuts time down tremendously) take anywhere from 15 minutes (for a mage with no credible nuyen. Yes, I can do them in 15 minutes, maybe 20) to an hour for an adept to multiple hours for street sams, deckers or riggers.

D&D characters take longest, it thusfar seems, for Wizards/Sorcerers - Roughly an hour, tops.

Characters for my own game take....Well, as long as it takes to make up martial arts techniques.

So for starters, the Chargen issue is a huge problem. It was mentioned earlier that people don't like playing archtypes - I agree. Its fun to do to introduce someone to the game, but at the very most if I were incorporating a new player I'd say "The Karma you earn on this run goes toward your new character if you choose to make one." I'd also allow some degree of early-on customization, changing adept powers around or what have you.

The second SNAFU of the game can be explained with my nifty little air quotes. Or...Well, they aren't air quotes, they're quotes. I'm the one asking the questions, and they're being asked at a Waldenbooks store in a mall with a full book shelf dedicated to gaming supplies. (Not as much room as you'd think, truth be told)

"Excuse me, do you have any Shadowrun books?"
"Nope."
"Will you be getting any when the Forth Edition comes out?"
"I dunno, we only get what they send us. A big truck comes up with boxes, we sell what's in them."

But they had multiple copies of D&D guides on the shelf. And WoD.

In some ways, a new edition makes financial sense. I don't agree with everything being done (We know this already), but I am willing to give it a try. I'm 20 years old, in college and in debt to my dad for car payments. I'm still setting aside 50 bucks for SR4, same as I'm setting aside 50 bucks for SSX4 when it comes out.

I ran my storyline since I was about 10. Yes, 10. It was a game which sounded marijuana-influenced. As far as pen and paper goes, I cut my teeth on Baldur's Gate, which got me into D&D. I then fell absolutely in love with Shadowrun in my freshman year. Sadly, retaining players proved difficult and we never really got far. We have, however, gotten pretty far with a fresh group of gamers this year (I'm now a junior, though I finished this year alive so I'm more a senior now. I went about a year with no pen/paper gaming.)

I have to agree that Fanpro would never commit suicide by pouring resources and hype into a new edition and aiming to blow its foot off. I also have to agree that when I come to these forums and see Adam posting, I like it. It shows me the guy cares. When the company hires people out of its forums like Patrick Goodman, I'm impressed. It shows me that the company really cares what happens to it, and that its interested in more than dollars and cents.

Now, not everyone agrees that SR4 will work well. I am by nature pessimistic so I see what I see and if I don't like it, I have little faith. Maybe, with a little jury-rigging of the "Edge" attribute and the retention of a Karma Pool (my absolutely biggest discrepancy with the new game is Edge, by the way...) I can live with it. Maybe I'd even like it.

I'm willing to give anything a try once. If it doesn't hurt in a bad way, twice. If I like it, more than twice. I'm also willing to play a game, make a statement equating the day's "enjoyment" to a root canal, and put the book up on E-Bay or keep it around to read it.

But until SR4 comes out, let's try to at least keep in mind that it might not be so bad. Fanpro's given me very little to be disappointed in, so I'm going to keep some hope even if I continue with reservations.

Maybe they're even listening and changing things as they realize people won't like it....

End rant.

FrostPDP, I went through the turnaround between V:tM and V:tR and I have to say I love them both. For different reasons of course.

I hope Fanpro handles the new game design better than they've handled the release of the FAQs....

When I first heard about the new edition I was excited. I didn't have any real big problems with SR3, but there were many areas that I thought could use some improvement. The more I read now, the more uneasy I feel. I just hope that when I see the game, I'm pleasantly surpised rather than deeply dissapointed.

Hmmmm,

mfb is speaking volumes in the silence he holds....

Funny, I thought he was saying "Hey, I respect my non-disclosure agreement."

heh. actually, i've just been asleep for the past 12 hours. i'm going to speak my volumes in a new thread.

edit: while respecting my NDA.

It's not so much "the last 12 hours," mind you. It's "the month or so (at a guess) that one of my best gamer friends has had the rules, and been depressingly un-enthusiastic about them."

Firstly, thank you for posting, Synner. This sort of information does a lot to quiet fears, perhaps even pique my interest, for the upcoming edition.

But the questions still remain...

Who is the target audience for SR4 and why?

As a 'veteran gamer', I do have more money to buy books now, plus I've been encouraging others to play. I know I've gotten two other people interested enough to acquire books, and at least four people who've never even heard of Shadowrun to play. That's three times what I managed in my early years of playing, and I suspect I'm not an exception. I'd like to think that makes me pretty valuable to FanPro, being free advertising and all that.

And who am I competing with for FanPro's ear? Are they trying to get kids who'd otherwise play video games? D20? Are they trying to get the unwashed prepubscent masses, or are they really looking for smart kids like we once were (hypothetically)? If it's the former, well I'm folding up my tent and going home. If it's the latter, I'll at least hang around and see what comes out of all this.

Finally, who let those FAQs get past the editor's desk? The SINGLE thing which has dampened the most excitement about SR4 appears to be those things. Show us cover art and little animated cartoons about a silly bird looking for his mother if you have to. Show us elf porn. But don't show us that! I'd have preferred we get nothing at all, so we'd all get frustrated at the devs at not having enough information, rather than get just enough information to be dangerous.

*sigh* Keeping my fingers crossed...

Thx for that Synner. It made perfect sense to me.

Hey I am hoping for a great game, one that will knock my socks off, and bring Shadowrun back to where I think it should be, the top of the food chain. Unfortunately nothing I have seen so far (and I have seen a lot) indicated to many in any way that it is going to even remotely resemble Shadowrun.

I believe the word you want is "shocked."

HA!

I'm mostly just going to agree with Synner. What he says is what I would say.

I don't really have the hard numbers on RPG sales. So I am, to an extent, talking out of my pie-hole. But I have talked to a lot of people in the industry, and the general feeling is that the old market is aging and shrinking and the young, new market is tough to pull in. D&D is the exception, but not a model FanPro can use exactly, because it's a small studio. WotC and WW do dominate the field; their books are the ones you see everywhere, even in non-traditional sales outlets like regular bookstores. As such, like Synner said, they handle the outreach, they are the face of the pen-and-paper RPG industry to new players. And the outreach also ties into other industries now: WotC and WW are both involved in computer gaming (either licensing their property to computer game development, or making P&P RPGs of Warcraft, Everquest and others).

Whether the overall P&P RPG market is shrinking or not, I do think SR's share of the market has shrunk, even if current sales are up. Gotta do something about that, but what? Keep in mind that as it stands, the field of battle is shaped by Wizards of the Coast and White Wolf. Whatever SR does, it either needs to capitalize off their momentum or find an innovative way to influence the field that doesn't cost the amount of money WotC and WW can throw at the problem.

And no one is saying that the opinion of DSF members does not matter. In the vast and horrible mess of the posting here, I have come across some gems of real criticism that are valid and I have taken up the line. But the more repetitive ranting here--and there is a lot of repetition--the harder it is to find the valid points. Also, you can't overestimate DSF's role. It's a valuable community of frequent posters here on this SR4 forum, but it's a small community. Even if all the frequent posters on this topic bought SR4 and the subsequent SR4 books, it wouldn't generate the cash needed to pay off the writers, no less everything else and pull a profit.

maybe if FP tarted up that Rob hottie, like WoD does with their booth babes, it'd see some more sales!