 The Big Picture, Why SR4? |
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 Jun 2 2005, 04:24 PM
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#101
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
Bah. Forget Rob, let's see some Adam on display. ~J |
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Jun 2 2005, 04:35 PM
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#102
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
But only if they are wearing elf ears.
:lick: |
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Jun 2 2005, 04:38 PM
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#103
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No more Elf porn!
~J |
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Jun 2 2005, 04:42 PM
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#104
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Like I don't look fuckin' sexy at all times anyway.
Unless plans change, I will be "on display" with FanPro regularly at GenCon. |
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Jun 2 2005, 05:10 PM
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#105
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Bring the elf ears... :lick:
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Jun 2 2005, 05:43 PM
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#106
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
And nothing else! |
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Jun 2 2005, 05:51 PM
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#107
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
I don't get that drunk at GenCon.
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Jun 2 2005, 06:00 PM
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#108
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Wait, there is drinking too?!?!?!?!?
I am definitely going! |
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Jun 2 2005, 06:05 PM
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#109
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Of course. Um, what else are conventions for? ;-)
FanPro usually helps throw an industrial concert on Saturday night, often with friends-of-the-company Cruciform Injection playing -- and last year the pant-rocking Gothsicles also played. Good times. For those that, uh, like industrial music and a lot of black/PVC clothing. |
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Jun 2 2005, 06:07 PM
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#110
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I haven't heard those words used together since I read my uncle's PhD thesis…
~J |
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Jun 3 2005, 03:33 AM
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#111
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
since we've already proven this isn't a "jump star or game over" situation, most of your argument falls flat. Add to that , of the 5 books you trumpet, four are SR3. If it were such a bad situation why would they go out on this limb commiting such resources to a failed system? This is a money grab by Fanpro, nothing more, nothing less. If they had just tidied up the decking rules 9again) and cut down on some of the bloat they might have pulled it off, but the whole sale extermination of the system which has been out, successfully, since 1989 is more than they can justify or outside of delusional day dreams, believe will last. If it is game over it is because Fanpro have so badly played this hand that they will alienate the existing fan base before the new base picks up. People looking ofr existing games may well find that they are encountering old hands playing 3rd ed and there is no room for 4th ed books. |
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Jun 3 2005, 11:30 AM
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#112
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 14-April 05 Member No.: 7,331 |
This is exactly the sort of thing that can put people's back up. It can look like the marketing concept for SR4 is 'Hang the long term players. They are getting old and have other things to do. Let's ignore them and go for grabbing younger players from White Wolf and WOTC.' I had been thinking that a new edition and rapid updating was a very good idea since I first heard about it. But the way more and more things are being said like this is starting to niggle. |
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Jun 3 2005, 11:41 AM
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#113
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
And, I mean, it's all well and good when we secretly suspect that's what's going on, deep in our black little hearts. But when it's come out and said aloud (or at least never remotely denied), it's kinda sucky. |
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Jun 3 2005, 01:11 PM
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#114
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
Maybe they figured out that no answer is better than a lie.
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Jun 3 2005, 01:54 PM
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#115
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I also think the idea that a major revision is necessary to get new players is simply wrong (or rather, major revision to the point of having to destroy everything ever and rebuilding from nothing is not necessary). I suppose it might be necessary if you want to get the 'unwashed masses', but the idea that you need said unwashed masses to survive is flawed, indeed, even dangerous. After all, they already have D&D. Why would they turn to something like SR?
There are some changes that should be made, that could be made very easily. Namely, applying the same basic test to everything. Make vehicle rigging like normal combat, but with faster movement rates and crash tests. Make decking more clearly like combat. The only complaint I've heard from people who've tried and dropped SR isn't that they don't like variable TNs, but that they feel like they're playing 4 or 5 different games (SR: Ranged combat, SR: Melee, SR:Magic, SR:Decking, SR:Rigging...) So Synner, I strongly disagree with you. |
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Jun 3 2005, 02:45 PM
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#116
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
That's not the point. He could say 'Wow, this is great, I can't wait for SR4 to see print!' without violating the NDA, but he isn't. In fact, not even Patrick Goodman is saying that. He's supportive of SR4, but even he isn't enthusiastic. And they're the only playtesters who seem to care enough to post about SR4. If none of the playtesters are enthusiastic about SR4, that's a very bad sign. |
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Jun 3 2005, 02:56 PM
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#117
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Well, that's not really the way it is. The playtesters, freelancers, etc. aren't really supposed to be posting how we feel about SR4. Our role is internal. We (including myself) occasionally do post and we get yelled at for it. But it's certainly not a case where we don't care enough to post. And I think it goes without saying that a playtester who is extremely unhappy is far more likely to not care about being yelled at when posting than one who is happy. I don't really like how the SR4 preview to the public is being handled and how SR4 is being communicated to the fans and potential new players, but I would say it's inaccurate to say that the playtesters don't care or are all negative. I know I have a whole bunch of personal feelings about SR4, but I'm not saying anything until I see the final product. |
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Jun 3 2005, 02:58 PM
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#118
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's not quite how it works, actually, Ed. as it turns out, Goodman had fingers shaken at him for posting what he posted. had i known that, i wouldn't have posted what i posted.
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Jun 3 2005, 04:45 PM
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#119
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Sounds like there needs to be a conference call or something to clarify the limits.
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Jun 3 2005, 04:50 PM
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#120
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, so far, only two or three people haven't gotten the message. i don't know how many playtesters there are, but it's somewhere in the neighborhood of "a lot".
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Jun 3 2005, 04:51 PM
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#121
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 873 |
There's also the fact that a number of playtesters (quel horror!) don't frequent Dumpshock. :) We shot for a broad base among our playtesters with a range of familiarity and experience with the game, going from "I've been playing since SR1!" to "Shadowrun? Sounds familiar, but I can't place it." Otherwise, it wouldn't be of much use as a playtest.
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 Jun 3 2005, 06:00 PM
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#122
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 15-February 03 From: Europe, Finland, Turku & Åbo Member No.: 4,101 |
Shadows of the underwold, anyone? New edition of ShadowRun... Great! Maybe the rules are now explaned in such hard steel wire that a new player dont need Game Masters to translate them to plain <insert language here>. If anyone there has looked how D&D did go from 3rd edition to 4th... i mean 3,5. There was no game mechanical changes (except weapon sizes) but more balancing and they called it streaming the game. Simply wonderfull if SR4 is more clearer than the present edition but if the stream lining the rules and reducing the dices means that all weapon skills are under name "firearms" and all magic skills are under "mumbojumbo" name.... Dont bother, i will not spend another 300€ for that kind of crappy edition/game. I will not use my money or i will not advice my fellow gamers to use their moneys for edition that takes step closer to "levels & class & hit-points" based system. SR is one of the rare game systems where 10 year old character with thousands of karma can be in serious trouble when facing a character that is 5 mins old. There is no magical "im 19 levels higher than you, i bet the crap out of you with my bare hands regaldes of classes or items you are carrying". You got a gun, he does not - time to read your prayers or come up something smooth and fast. If the new edition is more clearer, balances the skills conflicts (5 gun skills vs 1 spell skill to deliver damage) and changes the language "skills" & checks to make sense, the new edition will definetly end up to my bookshelf. I dont want to see some variation of d20 rule set spoling the name and spirit of ShadowRun. BTW, It takes about week for me to make new character but it takes 7 minutes to toss some numbers to paper. Maybe thats why last character did see +500 karmas. |
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Jun 3 2005, 06:20 PM
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#123
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That strikes me as an odd way to playtest a game. I helped with some local LARPs, and we discovered the best playtesting was to grab a hold of all the munchkins we could, and have them shake down the system until it's eyeteeth became loose. Once the munchkins were unable to go beyond a reasonable power level within the rules, we knew we were onto the right direction. I asked before if the playtesters have run gaves at variable power levels, and what those levels are; so far, it sounds like they've only playtested starting characters. That leaves open the question of abuse at slightly higher levels-- maybe as low as the 20 karma mark, or as high as the 1000 mark. It would do a little to reassure me to know that the playtesters have run games of varying power levels. |
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Jun 3 2005, 07:31 PM
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#124
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Coronados | San Ysidro CA Member No.: 106 |
Interesting statement here Lady Anaka. My next set of questions (responses?) to something like that would then be: "If they are new to the game, how did you meet this new resource group? What relationship, if any et al, existed previously? What other gaming experience, again if any, did they previously have?" I am curious because while as a developer (in media, formerly playtester for SR3) I understand and respect the need to think out of the Box on occasion, I also remember that never should I as a businessman ever elect to violate or invalidate in any way possible my relationship with a pre-existing client. My reason for this previous statement/basis is that I have watched the response(s) on the FAQ's as well since they were first pointed out to me by my current game group. Combined with mfb's post and the stuff I've seen elsewhere on these forums at least, I have to admit while some elements of the proposed material certainly continue to have my interest, my overall sense is that the changes being implemented were not as necessary as some may have felt. |
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Jun 3 2005, 07:34 PM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Coronados | San Ysidro CA Member No.: 106 |
I have to admit, being a former playtester and seeing the names of many people I know in previous editions of books, I will be interested to see the actual lists of playtesters in this SR4 book forthcoming. |
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