 The Big Picture, Why SR4? |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
 Jun 1 2005, 03:08 AM
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#51
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You do realize I'm still talking about CP and KP as they exist, and not making one bit of speculation of Edge or anything SR4?
Maybe you should actually read before you post. |
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Jun 1 2005, 03:09 AM
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#52
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
unlike crimson, i'm not a huge fan of the system as-is. i've been wanting to see SR3 torn down and rebuilt from scratch for quite a while, now.
but i don't like what's being built. and i'm not going to support it. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 1 2005, 03:10 AM
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#53
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Guests |
We both hate the rigging rules...
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Jun 1 2005, 03:11 AM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
heh. that's not much of a coincidence.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 1 2005, 03:14 AM
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#55
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Guests |
Yeah, just you, me, and everyone else who plays SR.
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Jun 1 2005, 03:15 AM
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#56
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Bull. You're whining because you're assuming that Edge won't serve the same function as Combat Pool and/or Karma Pool, or that there won't be anything else in the game that does. You're the one flying off the handle with your assumptions about how the lack of those two mechanics by name are going to mysteriously destroy every storyline you've been a part of with your characters in the past.
Or maybe you should actually try not to backpedal and pretend you're not saying exactly what you've been saying because you suddenly realize how pathetically whiney it makes you look. |
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Jun 1 2005, 03:17 AM
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#57
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
doc, the devs and playtesters have all but spelled out exactly what Edge replaces--and it's not combat pool.
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Jun 1 2005, 03:21 AM
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#58
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes, but we don't know how it replaces it, how it affects characters, or even how it works. All we know is that its classified as an Attribute. Much like Magic, Essence, and Reaction are all currently classified as an Attribute... but that doesn't mean it -- and they -- don't follow their own unique rules.
Complaining about that possibility (as Crimsondude and others have) is fine. I don't understand why they'd classify it as an Attribute if it didn't work like every other Attribute either. But complaining about Edge now being an Attribute because it will -- with utmost ignorance on the poster's part in every conceivable way -- mysteriously destroy the fabric of reality surrounding every storyline ever is just plain stupid. |
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Jun 1 2005, 03:25 AM
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#59
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not exactly. ~J |
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Jun 1 2005, 03:30 AM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
all i can really say is that crimson rarely posts in ignorance. he's too anal to do otherwise.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 1 2005, 03:43 AM
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#61
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Oh, no! Exagerration! Hide! Duh. |
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Jun 1 2005, 04:32 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280 |
I think what Crimsondude is trying to say is that he is the master of the SR3 rules. His characters have lived and died by them. Which is actually a pretty good reason to object to seeing them dissapear.
And mfb, you said you don't like what's being built? Now, I don't know who's got an inside scoop into the production of this game and who doesn't. But unless you are on the inside, that statement is built, as far as I can see, 90% on speculation and assumptions and negativity. |
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Jun 1 2005, 05:28 AM
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#63
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
MFB's mentioned in the past (in passing, rather than making a big deal about it), that he's taking part in (playing or running it, I'm not sure) a playtest group. So, well, maybe he does know what the new rules are shaping up to be better than you think.
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Jun 1 2005, 06:13 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280 |
Well alright then, I guess that falls under the heading of "on the inside".
But I am starting to get a feel for who qualifies as "core group of hard core fans" and I'm definitely beginning to understand why Fanpro wouldn't be catering to them. |
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Jun 1 2005, 06:21 AM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Yeah, they've got our money. Next! |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 1 2005, 06:40 AM
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#66
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Guests |
My thoughts exactly. As much as I distrust everyone on the inside (including mfb and the playtesting team he's with because, as was said, our views of SR3 are different) just out of habit, the rational actor in me wants to hope that Fanpro isn't consciously putting the future of the line on players who were either not born or very young when SR was first released and/or fickle SR players who gave up on the rules and the rule bloat because it doesn't make sense to appeal to a prospective audience that may or may not be there, and can't be proven either way (I doubt Fanpro has done a lot of market research. More to the point, I doubt they have the money to do it). I mean, if you want to appeal to video gamers, why not just save the hassle and make a video game with the company spun off from FASA that is owned by MS? |
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Jun 1 2005, 06:58 AM
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#67
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
They don't need to cater to us because they've got our money. They started getting our money in '89, they've gotten a couple hundred from each of us ever since, and now that they understand just how hooked we are, they realize it's time to do the same to the next generation (with a dumbed down version of the rules that will be able to try and grab ahold of their lesser attention span, hopefully, and a simple enough mechanic to get them playing this instead of just another MMORPG). Yes. We all know why they aren't "catering" to us, either. But that principle isn't what bothers us. I know they're a business, I know they're after money, and I'm okay with that. Always have been. What bugs me is that the entertainment I used to get for my money won't be there, from what I've seen thus far, in SR4. I'm okay with trading a company some of my money for some of their fun. I am. That's why I've been doing it for so long. |
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Jun 1 2005, 07:07 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280 |
Actually, what I was insinuating is that there's no chance of being catered to because your desires are unreasonable, your opinions are unwavering and your grasp of reality tenacious. But you know, whatever works.
And when I say you I really do not mean anyone individually. I'm refering to the "core group of die hard fans" |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 1 2005, 07:20 AM
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#69
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How does that not mean individually to those of us who self-identify as members of the, "core group of die hard fans" to be told our, "desires are unreasonable, [our] opinions are unwavering and [our] grasp of reality tenacious?"
Mighty big insults to be throwing at people, don't you think? Especially when said insults are made without a single... uh... fact to back them up? |
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Jun 1 2005, 07:27 AM
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#70
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Yes. We are, indeed, insane to like the game we've been playing for fifteen fucking years. Crazy us. We'd not like it to be burnt down, the ashes urinated on until the fires have died down, and then the sodden, smelly, mess, pushed into our outstretched hands as the new edition of the game we love. We're so silly, with our liking a game and wanting it revised instead of wholly rebuilt. How unreasonable a desire of ours, wanting our great game to stay great. Zany.
Simply untrue. Read who had high hopes (IE, "opinions") for SR4 early on, and read who's in this "hardcore maniac fanatic group" or whatever you call us now. My opinion was universally positive, initially, when they were talking about a new edition, a revision, etc. My opinion then wavered -- nay, sir! changed outright -- when they started to tell us what they were doing. They did a fantastic job of changing my mind, with each new FAQ. My opinions: wavered!
Yes. Thank you, sir. I do, indeed, have a strong, persistent, not easily pulled apart grasp upon reality. A pity the same doesn't hold true for everyone. Maybe that wasn't what you meant to say, right then, but since you're 0 for 2 so far, there's just no telling. Your insults weren't. A for effort, C- for implementation. Try again. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 1 2005, 07:34 AM
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#71
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Same here. We fought your battle on March 15 before being stabbed in the eye and told to expect more. We (Critias and myself, specifically) did a 180. The idea of our opinions (or at least mine) on anything being "unwavering," and specifically SR4, is laughable. My opinion of SR hasn't even been "unwavering" (although it is apparently "unusual") over all of the years I've played it.
hahahaha I never thought I'd see that. |
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Jun 1 2005, 07:47 AM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280 |
I concede that what I meant to say was tenuous.
In fact, I'll concede that everything I said was tenuous. 8) |
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Jun 1 2005, 08:01 AM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
Time for another ramble by yours truly. :talker:
I'm currently running three games. Yes, three. All of them are online. -A Shadowrun 3E game. -A D&D 3.5E game. -My own storyline, free-form (minimal if any diceage) This game has existed for over 10 years. Technically, I'm also part of another Shadowrun game and another Vampire: The Masquerade game, both of which are played during my school semester. (Old school better than new school? Case in friggin point.) I'm currently working on my book series, excerpts of that and other stories visible on my deviantArt which is in my sig. Those are all my credentials, I'm no freelancer or anything - But would I love to be? You bet. What I do know is that it took me a full day to make my first SR3 character using Priorities. Yes, we had two copies of the BBB to cut time down. Gear took forever. I also know that while trying to design a character for someone who wanted 1 million nuyen, the cyberware alone took four hours. I admit, the kid is a candidate for ADD. I also admit this kid never played a single run. We never got to that. Shadowrun characters being generated online (not using NSRCG, which cuts time down tremendously) take anywhere from 15 minutes (for a mage with no credible nuyen. Yes, I can do them in 15 minutes, maybe 20) to an hour for an adept to multiple hours for street sams, deckers or riggers. D&D characters take longest, it thusfar seems, for Wizards/Sorcerers - Roughly an hour, tops. Characters for my own game take....Well, as long as it takes to make up martial arts techniques. So for starters, the Chargen issue is a huge problem. It was mentioned earlier that people don't like playing archtypes - I agree. Its fun to do to introduce someone to the game, but at the very most if I were incorporating a new player I'd say "The Karma you earn on this run goes toward your new character if you choose to make one." I'd also allow some degree of early-on customization, changing adept powers around or what have you. The second SNAFU of the game can be explained with my nifty little air quotes. Or...Well, they aren't air quotes, they're quotes. I'm the one asking the questions, and they're being asked at a Waldenbooks store in a mall with a full book shelf dedicated to gaming supplies. (Not as much room as you'd think, truth be told) "Excuse me, do you have any Shadowrun books?" "Nope." "Will you be getting any when the Forth Edition comes out?" "I dunno, we only get what they send us. A big truck comes up with boxes, we sell what's in them." But they had multiple copies of D&D guides on the shelf. And WoD. In some ways, a new edition makes financial sense. I don't agree with everything being done (We know this already), but I am willing to give it a try. I'm 20 years old, in college and in debt to my dad for car payments. I'm still setting aside 50 bucks for SR4, same as I'm setting aside 50 bucks for SSX4 when it comes out. I ran my storyline since I was about 10. Yes, 10. It was a game which sounded marijuana-influenced. As far as pen and paper goes, I cut my teeth on Baldur's Gate, which got me into D&D. I then fell absolutely in love with Shadowrun in my freshman year. Sadly, retaining players proved difficult and we never really got far. We have, however, gotten pretty far with a fresh group of gamers this year (I'm now a junior, though I finished this year alive so I'm more a senior now. I went about a year with no pen/paper gaming.) I have to agree that Fanpro would never commit suicide by pouring resources and hype into a new edition and aiming to blow its foot off. I also have to agree that when I come to these forums and see Adam posting, I like it. It shows me the guy cares. When the company hires people out of its forums like Patrick Goodman, I'm impressed. It shows me that the company really cares what happens to it, and that its interested in more than dollars and cents. Now, not everyone agrees that SR4 will work well. I am by nature pessimistic so I see what I see and if I don't like it, I have little faith. Maybe, with a little jury-rigging of the "Edge" attribute and the retention of a Karma Pool (my absolutely biggest discrepancy with the new game is Edge, by the way...) I can live with it. Maybe I'd even like it. I'm willing to give anything a try once. If it doesn't hurt in a bad way, twice. If I like it, more than twice. I'm also willing to play a game, make a statement equating the day's "enjoyment" to a root canal, and put the book up on E-Bay or keep it around to read it. But until SR4 comes out, let's try to at least keep in mind that it might not be so bad. Fanpro's given me very little to be disappointed in, so I'm going to keep some hope even if I continue with reservations. Maybe they're even listening and changing things as they realize people won't like it.... End rant. :talker: |
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Jun 1 2005, 09:45 AM
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#74
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Wait, so this guy's in/running a playtesting group? That's somewhat sobering really; so far the other freelancers who've talked somewhat openly have been at least guardedly positive, even if they're just toeing the company line. I've mostly been down on Fanpro for their god-awful attempts at marketing thus far, but this is really worrying me. |
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Jun 1 2005, 10:20 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280 |
FrostPDP, I went through the turnaround between V:tM and V:tR and I have to say I love them both. For different reasons of course.
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