 The Big Picture, Why SR4? |
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 Jun 1 2005, 10:30 AM
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#76
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Freelance Elf  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714  |
Yes, he is. I don't know if he's running the game or if he gave his playtester stuff to a buddy and is just playing in it (I would assume he's running, though, he runs good games), but I know he's doing some playtesting stuff. He was excited when he got the yes. But... Two-thirds of my negativity comes from the FAQs. To be honest, almost all of that comes from a single FAQ in particular (the one that told us about the new basic mechanic, and the death of combat pool). The other third of my negativity, though? MFB. He's one of the gamers I trust most, one of the gamers I game with most, and one of the few people whose opinion on such matters matters very much to me. My distaste for SR4 doesn't stem from negative things he's been saying, however -- he hasn't been saying anything, really, due to (I assume) his NDA. My negativity comes from the fact he's not excited, despite being in on something as potentially cool as playtesting a new edition of a game we both dig. He's got no positive vibes comin' off him about the whole thing. He was psyched when he got accepted as a playtester, but after that he just got very quiet, and his few posts have been universally resigned/negative about the whole thing. Between that, and the few hard facts presented to us in the FAQ, I'm solidly down about the whole mess, at this point. My one hope was that after MFB got his playtest packet (or whatever), he'd suddenly be all energetic and exuberant and tell me not to worry, that the FAQs were crap, and that what they had so far was really, really awesome. He never said that. Or anything even remotely like that. I'm left, then, just assuming that the FAQs are telling us the truth. Hence my bad attitude. |
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Jun 1 2005, 12:44 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 422 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Columbus, OH Member No.: 875 |
I agree. The book is still a few months from release and we really don't know very much of anything about it, so why not hope for the best from a game we have loved for the past 16 years? |
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Jun 1 2005, 12:52 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241 |
I hope Fanpro handles the new game design better than they've handled the release of the FAQs....
When I first heard about the new edition I was excited. I didn't have any real big problems with SR3, but there were many areas that I thought could use some improvement. The more I read now, the more uneasy I feel. I just hope that when I see the game, I'm pleasantly surpised rather than deeply dissapointed. |
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Jun 1 2005, 03:54 PM
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#79
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Hmmmm,
mfb is speaking volumes in the silence he holds.... |
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Jun 1 2005, 03:56 PM
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#80
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Funny, I thought he was saying "Hey, I respect my non-disclosure agreement." ;-)
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Jun 1 2005, 03:55 PM
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#81
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
heh. actually, i've just been asleep for the past 12 hours. i'm going to speak my volumes in a new thread.
edit: while respecting my NDA. |
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Jun 1 2005, 03:59 PM
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#82
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
It's not so much "the last 12 hours," mind you. It's "the month or so (at a guess) that one of my best gamer friends has had the rules, and been depressingly un-enthusiastic about them."
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Jun 1 2005, 04:08 PM
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#83
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
True, and better than others have in the past. At least he hasn't gotten ripped for posting what little he is allowed. |
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Jun 1 2005, 04:45 PM
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#84
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Firstly, thank you for posting, Synner. This sort of information does a lot to quiet fears, perhaps even pique my interest, for the upcoming edition.
But the questions still remain... Who is the target audience for SR4 and why? As a 'veteran gamer', I do have more money to buy books now, plus I've been encouraging others to play. I know I've gotten two other people interested enough to acquire books, and at least four people who've never even heard of Shadowrun to play. That's three times what I managed in my early years of playing, and I suspect I'm not an exception. I'd like to think that makes me pretty valuable to FanPro, being free advertising and all that. And who am I competing with for FanPro's ear? Are they trying to get kids who'd otherwise play video games? D20? Are they trying to get the unwashed prepubscent masses, or are they really looking for smart kids like we once were (hypothetically)? If it's the former, well I'm folding up my tent and going home. If it's the latter, I'll at least hang around and see what comes out of all this. Finally, who let those FAQs get past the editor's desk? The SINGLE thing which has dampened the most excitement about SR4 appears to be those things. Show us cover art and little animated cartoons about a silly bird looking for his mother if you have to. Show us elf porn. But don't show us that! I'd have preferred we get nothing at all, so we'd all get frustrated at the devs at not having enough information, rather than get just enough information to be dangerous. *sigh* Keeping my fingers crossed... |
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Jun 1 2005, 04:54 PM
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#85
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Like they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially here. ;)
Me too. |
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Jun 1 2005, 04:55 PM
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#86
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 8-October 02 Member No.: 3,425 |
Thx for that Synner. It made perfect sense to me.
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Jun 1 2005, 05:30 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Hell, show us mechanics. Not the whole ball of wax, but show us the edge system. Show us the base mechanic. If they plan on doing a pre-release flyer, or if they plan on releasing a 'quick start' booklet, then show us some meat. The rules aren't hammerd down yet? Well show us where you are eith the edge system - mebbe someone here can poke a hole in it that the devs/testers didn't notice. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 1 2005, 09:15 PM
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#88
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Guests |
I am hoping for the best, but expecting the worst. |
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Jun 1 2005, 09:56 PM
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#89
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
That way we can all be pleasantly dissapointed in August. Or is it aggrivatingly pleased? |
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Jun 1 2005, 10:05 PM
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#90
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Hey I am hoping for a great game, one that will knock my socks off, and bring Shadowrun back to where I think it should be, the top of the food chain. Unfortunately nothing I have seen so far (and I have seen a lot) indicated to many in any way that it is going to even remotely resemble Shadowrun.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 1 2005, 10:04 PM
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#91
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Guests |
I believe the word you want is "shocked."
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Jun 1 2005, 10:39 PM
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#92
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Because it would be next to impossible to produce a good mechanic in just a few months. The amount of thought, statistical analysis, and testing that you'd need to make an actual good mechanic and iron out all the problems is too huge to be dealt with in a few months. |
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Jun 2 2005, 01:20 AM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
Huh? Someone asked where I was getting my info from. Comics and Games Retailer. It's a trade magazine for retailers. It contains a lot of sales info. Market share etc. As I no longer have a store it's been a few months since I've read it. However Synner said
Thats 25% of the remaining market share split how many ways?
Yes there is. However, even if you are making money are you making enough to make your time and effort worth while. My original post was, as I stated, not about the rules but the economic necessity of what FanPro is doing. I have been corrected on a few things but by and large this is something they need to do to survive. As far as the faq's go. Well, IMHO, they have been less than stellar. I think the idea was to wet peoples appetites and pump up expectation. (Which it may be doing other places than DS) More and more of the redesign would be reveled (as I'm sure it will) in up coming faqs. I though the last one was really the best. You may not like what they are doing but it is ,comparatively, chock full of info. As an aside. I have no problem with the idea of SR4 but await it's final release. I'd really like to see something on fixing weights and prices and cyber but I can wait. Thanos |
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Jun 2 2005, 01:41 AM
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#94
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You were talkin' smack about Duels. Me and my pal Lothan here don't like that. ~J |
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Jun 2 2005, 01:42 AM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
HA!
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Jun 2 2005, 01:55 PM
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#96
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Never played it myself. I'll look in the other subforums to get a feel for it. |
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Jun 2 2005, 03:16 PM
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#97
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I'm mostly just going to agree with Synner. What he says is what I would say.
I don't really have the hard numbers on RPG sales. So I am, to an extent, talking out of my pie-hole. But I have talked to a lot of people in the industry, and the general feeling is that the old market is aging and shrinking and the young, new market is tough to pull in. D&D is the exception, but not a model FanPro can use exactly, because it's a small studio. WotC and WW do dominate the field; their books are the ones you see everywhere, even in non-traditional sales outlets like regular bookstores. As such, like Synner said, they handle the outreach, they are the face of the pen-and-paper RPG industry to new players. And the outreach also ties into other industries now: WotC and WW are both involved in computer gaming (either licensing their property to computer game development, or making P&P RPGs of Warcraft, Everquest and others). Whether the overall P&P RPG market is shrinking or not, I do think SR's share of the market has shrunk, even if current sales are up. Gotta do something about that, but what? Keep in mind that as it stands, the field of battle is shaped by Wizards of the Coast and White Wolf. Whatever SR does, it either needs to capitalize off their momentum or find an innovative way to influence the field that doesn't cost the amount of money WotC and WW can throw at the problem. And no one is saying that the opinion of DSF members does not matter. In the vast and horrible mess of the posting here, I have come across some gems of real criticism that are valid and I have taken up the line. But the more repetitive ranting here--and there is a lot of repetition--the harder it is to find the valid points. Also, you can't overestimate DSF's role. It's a valuable community of frequent posters here on this SR4 forum, but it's a small community. Even if all the frequent posters on this topic bought SR4 and the subsequent SR4 books, it wouldn't generate the cash needed to pay off the writers, no less everything else and pull a profit. |
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Jun 2 2005, 04:03 PM
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#98
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Yes they have. I have been told by more tha one freelancer that DSF's opinions as a whole are not indicitive of the market. In other words, you don't represent anyone so we arn't listening to you. |
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Jun 2 2005, 04:08 PM
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#99
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
maybe if FP tarted up that Rob hottie, like WoD does with their booth babes, it'd see some more sales!
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Jun 2 2005, 04:08 PM
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#100
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I would say the first sentence is accurate. The second one is not. DSF's opinions as a whole are not indicative of the larger market. That doesn't mean DSF doesn't represent anyone (it represents a certain community of customers) and it doesn't mean that it's ignored. |
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