The Power of Magic, Will magic be more versatile in SR4? Options

[Panzergeist]

The biggest thing I am wondering about SR4 is how much magic will change, not in terms of mechanics, but in terms of what it can do. Magic in Shadowrun has always been pretty limited compared to other games. It is usable only by a few special people who specialize in magical pursuits and were born with talent, cannot be used to enhance high-tech gear, and there are a limited number of things it can do.

Compare that to games like D&D or Mage, where you can have enchanted computers, magic can slow time, and anyone can use a magic sword, and you see what I mean. So I am most interested in what game-world changes will take place over the five years between SR3 and SR4. Can anyone tell me what magic was like in Earthdawn? I have never played it, but I am given to understand that magic was able to do more things.

What are everyone's thoughts on what changes should take place? I would like to see a bit of an expansion of the capabilities and usability of magic, such as a few simple items for mundanes to use, and spells with more complex effects. However, I don't want Shadowrun to become something totally different, with higher-level mundane characters carrying a bunch of magic gear, enchanted cyberlegs, magic cars, and mages being overpowered. What do others think? Should magic stay the same, or be made a little better, like I suggest, or be made a lot better?

[Nerbert]

I'd like to see some good rules, guidelines, whatever, for making a lot more customized magic related doohickies. Spells, Foci, what have you.

[Shadow]

Well it sounds like magic is going to be a lot more common than the 1% rule in the current system. Since anyone can buy magic like an attribute it will make it way more accessible (hm is that an example of game mechanic influencing feel? Why yes I think it is!).

I do like what I am hearing about the ability to customize how you use magic and making up your own traditions. I think because of the semi real-world settinng SR is in we wont see teleporting or dimension doors or the such.

It would be neet to see mroe magic focused on sorcery than conjuring, more you could do with it than just cast spells.

[Nerbert]

(I'm not dignifying this with a response.)

What would you do with scorcery besides casting spells? I'm not being snide, I just always related sorcery=casting spells.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

And Spell Defense. And Dispelling. And Shielding. And Reflecting. And Absorbing. And Cleansing. And Astral Combat.

Plus some more metamagics that don't have to do with casting spells I can't rattle off the top of my head this second.

[Hell Hound]

I am all for more magical options for players but there is one thing I want to see preserved, the fact that magic is the great equaliser between the corporations and the underdogs. If magical gear becomes accessable to mundanes then there still needs to be something that keeps the corporations from kitting out every one of their sec guards with enchanted armour and assault rifles.

Its a 'realism' issue for me. If anyone can use magic then the corps, for whom neither money nor exotic materials are an obstacle, would be awash in magical weaponry and defenses. I like the idea that there is one power in the world that can't be monopolised through money.

On the subject of new traditions, how far should the system go? SR3 flavour text suggests that if belief is strong enough people can make anything into a means of working magic, should SR4 then allow players to have all sorts of wierd and wondrous magical 'traditions'? One that I have thought about but never used has been creating a group who use the ideals and practices of George Lucas' Jedi Knights for working their magic. Within shadowrun itself there is David Dragonson and his Dunkelzauhn inspired church, do they get their own special tradition?

[Shadow]

[Nerbert]

Ha ha, I like the Urban Jedi shtick. And I hope the system really is that fexible.

What its sounding like is that instead of Magic being an equalizer, its being equalized. More new trainees are going to be awakened, even if its just a little bit.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[fistandantilus4....]

I'm still interested in how initiating changes. If magic becomes just like any other attribute, does that mean it's raised the same way? Or does it still only go up through initiation? Are some of the metamagics now part of a given skill? Does initiation matter as much? More or less expensive?

It seems like the whole point is to balance out magic a bit by breaking up the skills, like they did with 'firearms'. But as I see it, if it stays mostly the same, just with more skills, it's going to become another place to sink karma into for mages, and nothing more.

You'll have a lot of mages that are still really good at sorcery or conjuring, probably a good spell defense, but suck at some of the more interesting aspects, like working ritual magic. In the games I play at least, ritual magic doesn't really come up all that often. But when it does, it's pretty cool, throwing all of those dice out. I see that changing, a lot. Yes you get to use your attribute to. But it'll probably look something like 6 from the attribute, and two from the actual skill. And that just seems wrong to me.

I actually like the idea of splitting up some of the skills, despite my reservations. I just hope they balance it by taking down the cost a bit somewhere else. I wonder if they're just doing it to balance it more against the whole "awakened are better than mundanes down the line", by making mages do a lot more to get 'down the line'.

[Ellery]

Changing the nature of the matrix is a big enough change to setting. Making SR4 a high-magic setting seems unnecessary, too big of a change, and inconsistent with lots of backstory (about the pace of rising mana levels and such).

I therefore think it's a supremely bad idea. If I want a high magic world, I'll go play D&D or Ars Magica or something. I like high magic worlds, but they don't mesh well with SR as it has been presented thus far, and I'd rather not completely divorce SR4 from SR history.

[Critias]

EDIT - Nevermind. I'm grouchy.

[fistandantilus4....]

[Nerbert]

I don't think its really going to become high magic. I mean, its probably more tightly controlled then ever. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the story there's a whole new divison of Lone Star which monitors and controls magic related infractions.

[Critias]

[Nerbert]

Critias, did you just pop out of the woodwork because you really, really don't like me or do you really feel that what I said is that inane?

I'm talking about the game world actively preventing "High Magic" within the context of the story line. I'm talking about the awakened being actively hunted and killed to prevent the spread of magic out of control.

I'm sorry you're so offended by everything I say, geez.

[fistandantilus4....]

apples to tuna fish....


So it's high magic tuna fish??

I think I'll make that my new totem with the SR4 custom magic system

All hail the High Magic Tuna Fish!


........

[Critias]

[Nerbert]

I don't want this to turn into another Critias vs Nerbert thread, so I'm not going to write here anymore.

[Critias]

As soon as you stop saying wrong things, I'll stop disagreeing with everything you say. Seriously.

[Ol' Scratch]

[Critias]

I think the concern is that it'll get -- for lack of a better comparison, though I understand the coincidence/irony of the one I've chosen -- more and more like Earthdawn, for instance. In ED, there are hordes of people in the background that aren't magical in the slightest, but aren't really surprised or phased by it, either. Every PC, on the other hand, was an Adept of some sort (only a few types of Adept were spellcasters, but the rest used magical effects instead of even basic Melee Weapons skills, to pull off amazing stunts).

If it gets to the point where there's little reason not to purchase a Magic of 1, SR could get like that very easily. And, well, just as easily if there's little reason not to purchase a Resonance of 1. Is there still a base build point cost to be a mage, and the need to purchase the Magic attribute? If not, I think you'll see a lot of people looking at making their character a merc/shooter/sniper/whatever and an Adept or Mage, just because there's no reason not to. If, for the price of one attribute point, you get access to all the little magical goodies (ability to use foci, eventual access to Initiation) and the major benefit of whatever flavor of Awakened you choose to be (even low force spells can be remarkably handy, even just a single power point of Adept ability can be very significant, astral vision isn't to be underestimated)....

It wouldn't surprise me, unless the cost of that first Magic point (or Resonance point, for what it's worth) is very steep, to suddenly see Shadowrunners leap even farther from that "1% of the population is Awakened" average. There would be, if that first Magic point isn't prohibitively expensive, little reason not to suddenly see every PC much like the Adepts of Earthdawn, with only the teeming masses of metahumanity in the background being completely mundane.

And that's pretty High Magic.

[Edward]

I don’t think magic will be more assessable in the game world, yes you can buy it as an attribute at char gen but if you start at 0 I assume you’re stuck at 0 and it’s easy to say that 99% or 98% of the worlds population have magic attribute of 0.

Among PCs there will likely be an increase in magical talent as it becomes affordable to play a magic dabbler possibly with significant cyber wear buy purchasing a low magic attribute at char gen.

Spurred on buy Duncalzans bequest there may be a availability of magical items usable buy mundanes but if they must be made buy magicians then production may be slow, enchanting technological items has always been possible but hard (consider the prevalence of dicoat katana weapon foci) and corps are not unaffected buy availability and expense of items, if they where not then every corporate security mage would long ago have been equipped with a force 6 weapon focus, force 6 power focus and a collection of force 6 spell category foci, as well as sustaining foci for there various defensive spells and there would be many more bound elementals defending corporat locations.

And if Jedi are to be possible will there finally be a way to create a light sabre,

Edward

[Ellery]

The issue with making magic super-inexpensive during character creation is one of balance and one of feel. Having minimal magical ability is quite useful, so making it too cheap will make not taking magic an unbalanced way to build a character. Likewise, having it cheap will make Shadowrunners inexplicably magical:

"Shadowrunners are magicians who use their unique powers to accomplish things that no-one else can."

Does that sound like Shadowrun to you? It doesn't to me. Shadowrunners are somewhat unusual, but their distinguishing feature is not that they are the magicians of the world in contrast to all others. What if we let everyone be magical:

"The year is 2070. The world is awash with magic; it's as common to see a person levitate as see them jump."

Does that sound like Shadowrun to you? It doesn't to me.

[Ol' Scratch]