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Panzergeist
The biggest thing I am wondering about SR4 is how much magic will change, not in terms of mechanics, but in terms of what it can do. Magic in Shadowrun has always been pretty limited compared to other games. It is usable only by a few special people who specialize in magical pursuits and were born with talent, cannot be used to enhance high-tech gear, and there are a limited number of things it can do.

Compare that to games like D&D or Mage, where you can have enchanted computers, magic can slow time, and anyone can use a magic sword, and you see what I mean. So I am most interested in what game-world changes will take place over the five years between SR3 and SR4. Can anyone tell me what magic was like in Earthdawn? I have never played it, but I am given to understand that magic was able to do more things.

What are everyone's thoughts on what changes should take place? I would like to see a bit of an expansion of the capabilities and usability of magic, such as a few simple items for mundanes to use, and spells with more complex effects. However, I don't want Shadowrun to become something totally different, with higher-level mundane characters carrying a bunch of magic gear, enchanted cyberlegs, magic cars, and mages being overpowered. What do others think? Should magic stay the same, or be made a little better, like I suggest, or be made a lot better?
Nerbert
I'd like to see some good rules, guidelines, whatever, for making a lot more customized magic related doohickies. Spells, Foci, what have you.
Shadow
Well it sounds like magic is going to be a lot more common than the 1% rule in the current system. Since anyone can buy magic like an attribute it will make it way more accessible (hm is that an example of game mechanic influencing feel? Why yes I think it is!).

I do like what I am hearing about the ability to customize how you use magic and making up your own traditions. I think because of the semi real-world settinng SR is in we wont see teleporting or dimension doors or the such.

It would be neet to see mroe magic focused on sorcery than conjuring, more you could do with it than just cast spells.
Nerbert
(I'm not dignifying this with a response.)

What would you do with scorcery besides casting spells? I'm not being snide, I just always related sorcery=casting spells.
Crimsondude 2.0
And Spell Defense. And Dispelling. And Shielding. And Reflecting. And Absorbing. And Cleansing. And Astral Combat.

Plus some more metamagics that don't have to do with casting spells I can't rattle off the top of my head this second.
Hell Hound
I am all for more magical options for players but there is one thing I want to see preserved, the fact that magic is the great equaliser between the corporations and the underdogs. If magical gear becomes accessable to mundanes then there still needs to be something that keeps the corporations from kitting out every one of their sec guards with enchanted armour and assault rifles.

Its a 'realism' issue for me. If anyone can use magic then the corps, for whom neither money nor exotic materials are an obstacle, would be awash in magical weaponry and defenses. I like the idea that there is one power in the world that can't be monopolised through money.

On the subject of new traditions, how far should the system go? SR3 flavour text suggests that if belief is strong enough people can make anything into a means of working magic, should SR4 then allow players to have all sorts of wierd and wondrous magical 'traditions'? One that I have thought about but never used has been creating a group who use the ideals and practices of George Lucas' Jedi Knights for working their magic. Within shadowrun itself there is David Dragonson and his Dunkelzauhn inspired church, do they get their own special tradition?
Shadow
QUOTE (Nerbert)
(I'm not dignifying this with a response.)

And yet you still responded. I feel dignified smile.gif

There are a lot of things you do with Sorcery now, I just hope they are continued and expanded up on in SR4.


Nerbert
Ha ha, I like the Urban Jedi shtick. And I hope the system really is that fexible.

What its sounding like is that instead of Magic being an equalizer, its being equalized. More new trainees are going to be awakened, even if its just a little bit.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Hell Hound @ Jun 4 2005, 02:03 AM)
On the subject of new traditions, how far should the system go? SR3 flavour text suggests that if belief is strong enough people can make anything into a means of working magic, should SR4 then allow players to have all sorts of wierd and wondrous magical 'traditions'? One that I have thought about but never used has been creating a group who use the ideals and practices of George Lucas' Jedi Knights for working their magic. Within shadowrun itself there is David Dragonson and his Dunkelzauhn inspired church, do they get their own special tradition?

The CotD has Dragon Totem followers. They even got their own Dragon totem separate from the Wyrm Druidic totem (although for the life of me I can't recall which book has the stats).

My concern is that they're going to neuter any differences between Traditions because adding things like Spirits of the Elements and Ancestor Spirits somehow broke the game, and that SR magic is "binary" even though three books (London, Germany, TNO) created new Traditions (Awakening adding a fourth) with their own rules which in MitS were relegated back to binary form from being almost wholly separate (I thought the SR2 rules for Voudoun were pretty cool). But we have all of these "spirit" things all over T6W that have different stats and powers, are summoned differently, and operate under different rules.

You eliminate all of the mechanical differences between spirit types (easily--make all Attributes equal to Force for all spirits) and many of the problems in there being multiple Traditions, even fanfic ones, goes away. The one remaining difference are the Totem/Idol/Loa, and post-SOTA64 (plus Elementalists from MitS), Hermetic dice mods. You can either eliminate them, or allow for some sort of dice mods to continue into SR4 and be available to all magicians of all Traditions--and then giving rules for the dice mods similar to how a Totem Creation Guide would work barring certain examples which have broken every attempt I've seen at a comprehensive reverse-engineerable TCG such as the mods for Owl, Oak, and Horse.

I'd just eliminate dice pool bonuses.
fistandantilus4.0
I'm still interested in how initiating changes. If magic becomes just like any other attribute, does that mean it's raised the same way? Or does it still only go up through initiation? Are some of the metamagics now part of a given skill? Does initiation matter as much? More or less expensive?

It seems like the whole point is to balance out magic a bit by breaking up the skills, like they did with 'firearms'. But as I see it, if it stays mostly the same, just with more skills, it's going to become another place to sink karma into for mages, and nothing more.

You'll have a lot of mages that are still really good at sorcery or conjuring, probably a good spell defense, but suck at some of the more interesting aspects, like working ritual magic. In the games I play at least, ritual magic doesn't really come up all that often. But when it does, it's pretty cool, throwing all of those dice out. I see that changing, a lot. Yes you get to use your attribute to. But it'll probably look something like 6 from the attribute, and two from the actual skill. And that just seems wrong to me.

I actually like the idea of splitting up some of the skills, despite my reservations. I just hope they balance it by taking down the cost a bit somewhere else. I wonder if they're just doing it to balance it more against the whole "awakened are better than mundanes down the line", by making mages do a lot more to get 'down the line'.
Ellery
Changing the nature of the matrix is a big enough change to setting. Making SR4 a high-magic setting seems unnecessary, too big of a change, and inconsistent with lots of backstory (about the pace of rising mana levels and such).

I therefore think it's a supremely bad idea. If I want a high magic world, I'll go play D&D or Ars Magica or something. I like high magic worlds, but they don't mesh well with SR as it has been presented thus far, and I'd rather not completely divorce SR4 from SR history.
Critias
EDIT - Nevermind. I'm grouchy.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Ellery)
I therefore think it's a supremely bad idea. If I want a high magic world, I'll go play D&D or Ars Magica or something.

I completely agree with this. They make a distinction to do things like leave a fine line between magic and technology. In ED, magic WAS the technology. If I wanted that, I'd jsut play ED. If you'd prefer a high magic world, houe rule it. But I like it better the way it is. That's just me.
Nerbert
I don't think its really going to become high magic. I mean, its probably more tightly controlled then ever. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the story there's a whole new divison of Lone Star which monitors and controls magic related infractions.
Critias
QUOTE (Nerbert)
I don't think its really going to become high magic. I mean, its probably more tightly controlled then ever. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the story there's a whole new divison of Lone Star which monitors and controls magic related infractions.

That has nothing to do with what is being talked about.

Other people are talking about an OOC topic, a rules topic, a game setting/feeling/tone/power level/theme topic. They're talking about not liking that much magic in a game.

You're talking about how the game world is going to change to accomodate that much magic in the game (not that what you're hypothesizing is a change, LS already has departments devoted purely to magical crimes). They're talking about not wanting something in the game world, you're talking about how that something (the something they don't want) would fit right in.

You're comparing apples and tuna fish.
Nerbert
Critias, did you just pop out of the woodwork because you really, really don't like me or do you really feel that what I said is that inane?

I'm talking about the game world actively preventing "High Magic" within the context of the story line. I'm talking about the awakened being actively hunted and killed to prevent the spread of magic out of control.

I'm sorry you're so offended by everything I say, geez.
fistandantilus4.0
apples to tuna fish....


So it's high magic tuna fish??

I think I'll make that my new totem with the SR4 custom magic system

All hail the High Magic Tuna Fish!


........
Critias
QUOTE
Critias, did you just pop out of the woodwork because you really, really don't like me or do you really feel that what I said is that inane?


The second.

QUOTE
I'm talking about the game world actively preventing "High Magic" within the context of the story line.† I'm talking about the awakened being actively hunted and killed to prevent the spread of magic out of control.


No. You're talking about how the game world would evolve and adapt to accomodate High Magic being introduced into the storyline. That's not the same as the dev team just checking themselves and not doing it, it's the dev team implementing it and then showing how it affects the setting. It is the opposite of it not happening.

Lone Star can no more "actively prevent" the mana level from spiraling out of control and every character being Awakened than they can currently "actively prevent" player characters from having spells with a Force higher than 3, or illegal foci.

QUOTE
I'm sorry you're so offended by everything I say, geez.


I'm not offended. You're just kind of a roll with "saying things Crit thinks are wrong." And, since I have nothing better to do, and since this is a board devoted to discussion and debate, I comment/correct.
Nerbert
I don't want this to turn into another Critias vs Nerbert thread, so I'm not going to write here anymore.
Critias
As soon as you stop saying wrong things, I'll stop disagreeing with everything you say. Seriously.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Panzergeist)
...cannot be used to enhance high-tech gear...

Says who? The spells Fix and Vehicle Mask alone prove you wrong there, not to mention the ability to have Monofilament Whip weapon foci, or creating fetishes or other foci out of high-tech equipment.

QUOTE
...and there are a limited number of things it can do...

Or, more correctly, a limited number of things it can't do, as clearly described in MitS.

QUOTE (Shadow)
Since anyone can buy magic like an attribute it will make it way more accessible (hm is that an example of game mechanic influencing feel? Why yes I think it is!).

Err, where did you get that impression? Magic is bought as an attribute, not that just anyone can buy it. You might as well say that everyone is a technomancer, too, since Resonance is purchased as an attribute as well.

QUOTE (Crimsondude)
Synner wrote a post which was pretty telling in making all of these concerns. You eliminate all of the mechanical differences between spirit types (easily--make all Attributes equal to Force for all spirits) and many of the problems in there being multiple Traditions, even fanfic ones, goes away. The one remaining difference are the Totem/Idol/Loa, and post-SOTA64 (plus Elementalists from MitS), Hermetic dice mods. You can either eliminate them, or allow for some sort of dice mods to continue into SR4 and be available to all magicians of all Traditions--and then giving rules for the dice mods similar to how a Totem Creation Guide would work barring certain examples which have broken every attempt I've seen at a comprehensive reverse-engineerable TCG such as the mods for Owl, Oak, and Horse.

I'm 100% for that sort of thing myself. It doesn't eliminate individuality, it inspires it amongst magicians and allows players to truly customize their own tradition based upon their character's belief system while simultaneously keeping things fair and simple.

QUOTE (Critias)
Other people are talking about an OOC topic, a rules topic, a game setting/feeling/tone/power level/theme topic. They're talking about not liking that much magic in a game.

That's an issue for them to work out in their own take on the setting then. The base setting has magic playing a very noticable and profound role in the Sixth World. Just look at the Archetypes in any of the core sourcebooks. In the SR3 sourcebook, about a third of them are Awakened (Adept, Combat Mage, Street Mage, Street Shaman, and Tribal Shaman right off the top of my head). The game even had a frelling dragon as the president of the UCAS for crying out loud, not to mention a free spirit running one of the largest megacorporations, and several countries just oozing with magic such as Aztlan and the Tirs. Hell, the entire premise of the setting revolves around magic and its impact on the world, and 4/5 of your base racial options are essentially "magical."

It's never been a "low magic setting," but it's never been a "high magic" one either. Its a cyberpunk-fantasy mix right down the middle, even if some choose to lessen one aspect over the other.
Critias
I think the concern is that it'll get -- for lack of a better comparison, though I understand the coincidence/irony of the one I've chosen -- more and more like Earthdawn, for instance. In ED, there are hordes of people in the background that aren't magical in the slightest, but aren't really surprised or phased by it, either. Every PC, on the other hand, was an Adept of some sort (only a few types of Adept were spellcasters, but the rest used magical effects instead of even basic Melee Weapons skills, to pull off amazing stunts).

If it gets to the point where there's little reason not to purchase a Magic of 1, SR could get like that very easily. And, well, just as easily if there's little reason not to purchase a Resonance of 1. Is there still a base build point cost to be a mage, and the need to purchase the Magic attribute? If not, I think you'll see a lot of people looking at making their character a merc/shooter/sniper/whatever and an Adept or Mage, just because there's no reason not to. If, for the price of one attribute point, you get access to all the little magical goodies (ability to use foci, eventual access to Initiation) and the major benefit of whatever flavor of Awakened you choose to be (even low force spells can be remarkably handy, even just a single power point of Adept ability can be very significant, astral vision isn't to be underestimated)....

It wouldn't surprise me, unless the cost of that first Magic point (or Resonance point, for what it's worth) is very steep, to suddenly see Shadowrunners leap even farther from that "1% of the population is Awakened" average. There would be, if that first Magic point isn't prohibitively expensive, little reason not to suddenly see every PC much like the Adepts of Earthdawn, with only the teeming masses of metahumanity in the background being completely mundane.

And that's pretty High Magic.
Edward
I donít think magic will be more assessable in the game world, yes you can buy it as an attribute at char gen but if you start at 0 I assume youíre stuck at 0 and itís easy to say that 99% or 98% of the worlds population have magic attribute of 0.

Among PCs there will likely be an increase in magical talent as it becomes affordable to play a magic dabbler possibly with significant cyber wear buy purchasing a low magic attribute at char gen.

Spurred on buy Duncalzans bequest there may be a availability of magical items usable buy mundanes but if they must be made buy magicians then production may be slow, enchanting technological items has always been possible but hard (consider the prevalence of dicoat katana weapon foci) and corps are not unaffected buy availability and expense of items, if they where not then every corporate security mage would long ago have been equipped with a force 6 weapon focus, force 6 power focus and a collection of force 6 spell category foci, as well as sustaining foci for there various defensive spells and there would be many more bound elementals defending corporat locations.

And if Jedi are to be possible will there finally be a way to create a light sabre,

Edward
Ellery
The issue with making magic super-inexpensive during character creation is one of balance and one of feel. Having minimal magical ability is quite useful, so making it too cheap will make not taking magic an unbalanced way to build a character. Likewise, having it cheap will make Shadowrunners inexplicably magical:

"Shadowrunners are magicians who use their unique powers to accomplish things that no-one else can."

Does that sound like Shadowrun to you? It doesn't to me. Shadowrunners are somewhat unusual, but their distinguishing feature is not that they are the magicians of the world in contrast to all others. What if we let everyone be magical:

"The year is 2070. The world is awash with magic; it's as common to see a person levitate as see them jump."

Does that sound like Shadowrun to you? It doesn't to me.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
It wouldn't surprise me, unless the cost of that first Magic point (or Resonance point, for what it's worth) is very steep, to suddenly see Shadowrunners leap even farther from that "1% of the population is Awakened" average. There would be, if that first Magic point isn't prohibitively expensive, little reason not to suddenly see every PC much like the Adepts of Earthdawn, with only the teeming masses of metahumanity in the background being completely mundane.

You guys are looking at this in the weirdest way imaginable. Here's a better way to look at it:

Magicians still have to pay a high BP/Priority just to be a Magician, let's stick with A for now since I don't recall seeing anything about how their handling character creation, and since Priorities weren't listed as one of the big changes, chances are they're still there in one incarnation or another. Now Magicians still have to buy their Attribute priority just like everyone else. However, they likely don't get any bonus Attribute points, but still have to buy all the same attributes as everyone else PLUS their Magic Attribute. So while currently you can have a magician with 5's across all their normal attributes and Magic 6, in the new system they'd be lucky to have 4's across the board INCLUDING Magic.

The only change here is that Magicians are likely being depowered, as opposed to magic being made more readily available. Instead of getting Magic 6 for free and spending all their Attribute points on the standard ones, they have to buy their standard ones AND Magic, thereby decreasing the average of all of them.

Again, I have no idea where people are getting the idea that its going to work any other way. Well, except for one rampant speculation thread I read a while ago where someone assumed you'd just be able to buy Magic as a normal attribute without having to buy the ability to be a magician in the first place.
Hell Hound
QUOTE (Edward)
And if Jedi are to be possible will there finally be a way to create a light sabre,

Edward

Yes, being unable to come up with a way to add Lightsabers without making it incredibly cheesy and thus feeling totally wrong for the dark SR world was why I never used the 'Jedi Knight magical tradition' idea.

QUOTE (Crimsondude2.0)
The CotD has Dragon Totem followers. They even got their own Dragon totem separate from the Wyrm Druidic totem (although for the life of me I can't recall which book has the stats).

True, The CotD have their own totem (it's in Year of the Comet), but that makes them part of the shamanic tradition, what I was asking was will they/should they end up with their own special tradition in SR4, instead of being shamans should there be a tradition for priests and followers of a divine entity or religion? A shaman in the SR world perceives their totem as a personal guide and archetype to aspire to, a God watches over everyone and extends his/her/its guidance and aid to any who choose to call on him/her/it, there is probably enough difference there to make a case for separate magical traditions.

QUOTE (Crimsondude2.0)
My concern is that they're going to neuter any differences between Traditions because adding things like Spirits of the Elements and Ancestor Spirits somehow broke the game

I really hope this does not happen, the differences in the spirits was for me one of the big draw cards of magic, everyone works sorcery in essentially the same manner but every tradition gets their own unique group of spirits to call on.
Cochise
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
You guys are looking at this in the weirdest way imaginable. 

*hmm* Maybe ... maybe not

QUOTE
Here's a better way to look at it:


It's just an assumption and sorry to say that: You missed some points there ...

QUOTE
Magicians still have to pay a high BP/Priority just to be a Magician


That's more or less a "wild guess", since paying for a magic attribute during chargen per point of magic rating wil require a lessened initial cost in order to work out.

QUOTE
let's stick with A for now since I don't recall seeing anything about how their handling character creation, and since Priorities weren't listed as one of the big changes, chances are they're still there in one incarnation or another.


Bad assumption:

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ Part Two)
Q. Will character generation keep the priority system or be point-based?
A. It is a point-based system.


QUOTE
Now Magicians still have to buy their Attribute priority just like everyone else.  However, they likely don't get any bonus Attribute points, but still have to buy all the same attributes as everyone else PLUS their Magic Attribute.


So in order to even roughly maintain the balance of previous editions, the initial cost for being a mage should not be as high as it is now. Otherwise you'd start "gimping" mages from the start by doubling the penalty for being a mage: High entry cost plus expendures not only on the normal attributes but also on magic ...

QUOTE
So while currently you can have a magician with 5's across all their normal attributes and Magic 6, in the new system they'd be lucky to have 4's across the board INCLUDING Magic.


Which thus seems to be a rather bad conclusion, at least IMHO ...

QUOTE
The only change here is that Magicians are likely being depowered, as opposed to magic being made more readily available.  Instead of getting Magic 6 for free and spending all their Attribute points on the standard ones, they have to buy their standard ones AND Magic, thereby decreasing the average of all of them.


Possible ... even if the initial cost for being a mage isn't high or non existant ...

QUOTE
Again, I have no idea where people are getting the idea that its going to work any other way.


I guess this time that question can be given back to you, since you have no more insight than others. You're still just "guessing". And as valid as your assumption on average attribute levels might be, that doesn't necessarily influence the fact that taking a lower attribute average, but keeping the door to magic and / or technomancy (if they don't exclude each other as under current rules) for the "long run", might me more appealing than now ..

QUOTE
Well, except for one rampant speculation thread I read a while ago where someone assumed you'd just be able to buy Magic as a normal attribute without having to buy the ability to be a magician in the first place.


That assumption is not that rampant at all. I seem to recall a magic system you proposed for SR3 that was point based, where the entry cost for being a mage was something about 6 points or so ... Assume something similar for SR4 and then start buying your magic attribute at chargen with normal build points or raise that attribute later ingame with the SR4 equivalent of karma ...
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
I guess this time that question can be given back to you, since you have no more insight than others. You're still just "guessing".

No, I'm assuming things are remaining the same unless specifically mentioned that they're not. So far there has been no indication that a Priority-type system is being removed and, at most (since nothing has stated even this much), Magic will be lowered slightly in the same way Race was altered from SR2 to SR3. The only thing that's really been mentioned is that the Magic Attribute is being treated like a normal attribute for purposes of assigning a value to it, AND that characters are generally being aimed at being less powerful overall than they currently are due to 1-6 being the full range of base attributes, as opposed to 1-6(-9).

Considering how many people complain about how powerful magicians are, and in this very thread are complaining about the possibility of magic being "too common," it seems that the only reason people are assuming its going to work some other way is to justify their desperate desire to hate a system sight unseen. There's been nothing released to justify any of it; quite the contrary, all released information indicates magic is going to be down-powered.

QUOTE
...Assume something similar for SR4...

Exactly my point. Not only are you admitting that you're making unfounded assumptions, you're also making those assumptions based upon a house rule some loser (moi) created on a message forum despite there never having been any sort of mechanic like it in the game in the past, or mentioned in any of the official releases.
Cochise
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
No, I'm assuming things are remaining the same unless specifically mentioned that they're not.  So far there has been no indication that a Priority-type system is being removed

Take another look at the quote from SR4 FAQ Part 2 I gave in my last posting ... or look here
QUOTE
There's been nothing released to justify any of it; quite the contrary, all released information indicates magic is going to be down-powered.


That "indication" has nothing to do with the assumptions being made on the mere fact that magic (and possibly Resonance) are to be treated as "normal" attributes (I don't even dare speculating on how initiation is going to be affected by the new attribute cap at 6)

QUOTE
Exactly my point.  Not only are you admitting that you're making unfounded assumptions, you're also making those assumptions based upon a house rule some loser (moi) created on a message forum despite there never having been any sort of mechanic like it in the game in the past, or mentioned in any of the official releases.


Now you're getting "rude" again biggrin.gif

You were the one who was doing the very same: You speculated. I pointed that out, showed that one of your assumptions (the remainder of priority system) is doubtful as long as we take FAQ info on SR4 to be correct and then said: One could speculate. Actually, I wasn't saying that my speculation is right. So no, I'm not making "unfounded" assumptions there, but do what you said in one of the other threads on the SR4 subject: I'm holding up a mirror. And obviously this time it's you who doesn't like being treated in that manner wink.gif
Milo Simpkin
QUOTE (Panzergeist)
cannot be used to enhance high-tech gear


Actually I see no reason why magic can't be used to enhance high tech gear. Just that there is an inherent greater difficulty in doing so due to the fact that you will be using the ORT and if it's very high tech then you're basically looking at a 10. Besides there are spells that can spoof sensors and cameras why not a manipulation spell that blankets an area with Comm Static, working like Astral static but for Comms gear and at a TN 10? Why not an elemental sustained manipulation spell that can provide a power supply for an electronic device? Again, TN 10. I have designed characters that use custom spells like this. And that's what I call, and will always call, a techomancer.


QUOTE (Edward)
And if Jedi are to be possible will there finally be a way to create a light sabre


Actually ran with a 'jedi' in a group make something like this. He specialised in Manipulation spells: Mind Probe, Control Mind, Telekenisis, even Spark. He ended up designing a sustaing manipulation spell called laser blade or something. Did Force M damage at 'touch' range and anchored it onto a maglight. But you actually had to hit with it.



QUOTE (Hell Hound)
instead of being shamans should there be a tradition for priests and followers of a divine entity or religion?


Well as a long term Rolemaster player as well as Shadowrun I always thought there should be just three basic ways of looking at how you utilise magic. Controlling the raw mana that flows through the world (Hermetic), Calling on the aid of a higher power (Shamans and Priests looking to Totems and Deities), and using the magical power within (Adepts and Psionics).

I think that break down works neatly and nicely. Therefore I see no problem at all with there being philosophical and religous 'totems' and having them work mechanically similar to Shaman. Few tweaks are necessary. A christian priest would conjure Angels rather than Spirits (same effect, different look) and would pray in a church rather than dance in a medicine lodge to gain spells, design allies. Again, same principle.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
Take another look at the quote from SR4 FAQ Part 2 I gave in my last posting ... or look here

Build Points are a type of Priority system. Since I coupled them together in my first post that you were replying to, I assumed (rut roh) that you'd realize I was going to continue with the same definition.

And, again, there's never been any seperation of specific abilities beyond Full Magician, Aspected Magician, and Adept, and nothing suggests it will be otherwise either. My set of house rules are no more a valid reason to assume otherwise as Random Poster making a random guess that Magic will, for some strange reason, be so common anyone can buy Magic 1 real cheap.

QUOTE
That "indication" has nothing to do with the assumptions being made on the mere fact that magic (and possibly Resonance) are to be treated as "normal" attributes (I don't even dare speculating on how initiation is going to be affected by the new attribute cap at 6)

Which indicates that compared to now, Magic is being downpowered since, obviously, not all magicians get a free Magic 6 from the get-go for free.

QUOTE
Now you're getting "rude" again  biggrin.gif

Towards myself.

QUOTE
You were the one who was doing the very same: You speculated.

Yes, and I'm speculating based upon the released information and otherwise how the game currently works. This is as opposed to other people with "concerns" in this thread and others who are speculating based upon random and unfounded assumptions based purely upon rumors started by other posters who are every bit as ignorant about the new ruleset as everyone else.

If only sticking to actual released information rather than random web rumors makes my assumptions "unfounded" and "weird" as opposed to the latter, I'll concede the point.
Hell Hound
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
The only change here is that Magicians are likely being depowered...

I don't have an immediate problem with depowering magic users as long as it's not depowering magic. If it takes the mage longer to do all the stuff they could do under SR3, but they will still be able to do it all eventually, I won't have a huge problem with that. But I never had a huge problem with the power level of magic users in SR3 and so didn't think it needed to be depowered in the first place.

To me the breakup of magical skills suggests that players either start out with lower power in all the skills they would have had in SR3 or they specialise in one area. More options means more variation in characters, and that's nearly always a good thing.

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Considering how many people complain about how powerful magicians are, and in this very thread are complaining about the possibility of magic being "too common,"...

There's a big difference between a magician being too powerfull and there being too many magicians in the game world. In one they are a game breaker due to their abilities, in the other they lose their mystique because every other person can sling spells. I don't agree with the former and I am hoping we won't see the latter.
Ol' Scratch
It's not going to be some massive depowering if it does work that way.

Look, let's assume you have to do the same thing in SR3 -- buy your Magic Attribute like any other attribute with 6 being the absolute unmodified maximum as opposed to 9 currently (which I'll be listing in parenthesis after the actual score just to drive that point home further). We'll also build the same character as they are right now where they don't have to buy it. Since we're only focusing on Magic and Attributes, let's go with Magic 30 and Attributes 60.

Old SR3: The Magician could have Bod 4(9), Qui 4(9), Str 4(9), Cha 6(9), Int 6(9), Wil 6(9) and Magic 6(6).

New SR3: The Magician could have Bod 3(6), Qui 3(6), Str 3(6), Cha 5(6), Int 4(6), Wil 6(6), and Magic 6(6).

That's not exactly tragic, and while SR4 will have more attributes to purchase, the point remains. Even if a player only wants to purchase Magic 1 for their character, they're still going to have to buy their Magic priority, meaning they'll have significantly fewer points to spend on other priorities and attributes.
NeoJudas
My take vs. hope on things magical for SR4.

Of the stuff we've heard/read, I kinda really do like the division of the Sorcery and Conjuring skills. Personally, it is the one division that would help my group in better defining the magical operations they perform. I also find that having a "Metamagic" skill has helped our games personally handle a lot of stuff. Just that one skill has meant some serious decisions with regards to how much karma a magician decides to put into what development.

I am not sure where it was originally meantioned, but I personally do not like the idea of having all spirits attributes being determined by purely by force. In the Astral, certainly this is fine as all the accoutrements of physicality are removed thereon. But Fire and Water simply are not good mixers and that needs to remain. The only reason I'm bringing this up is that it was mentioned in this thread and I have yet had a chance to find out if this is actually a mentioned thing/teaser.

If it were me, and I were to follow the structure(s) hinted at in both the FAQ's as well as the pre-existing considerations in SR3, I might suggest the following;
  1. Sorcery (Category of Magical Skills)- Casting, Counterspelling, Collective (ie; Ritual).
  2. Conjuring (Category of Magic Skills)- Summoning, Controlling, Banishing
  3. Enchanting (Category of Magic Skills)- Alchemy, Artificing, Talismongering
  4. Manifestations (Category of Magic Skills)- Auras (Reading, Signatures), Engagements (Astral Combat), Evasions (Masking, Stealth)
  5. Metaforces (Category of Magic Skills; Available to Initiates Only)- By Metatalent or perhaps by some definable set of metatalents.
We use this kind of structure already, with the exception of Sorcery and Conjuring now so naturally it's something I wouldn't mind seeing happen.

Regarding the idea of buying a magic attribute as any other attribute at character creation. There are certain things I like about this and there are things I do not. I would personally still require someone to "buy" access to magic and then have to buy the attribute. Of course, the current design point system in the SR Comp does not have enough points to then make a comparable street mage if you start to do this so I'm hoping the point system is of course being revised as well if this venue is being pursued.

I would also say that the magic attribute that is being bought from zero (0) would need the qualifier of accessibility. Just because you have a magic attribute does not tell you what kind of magic you can work with. You could have a magic attribute of 6 for all I care but if you only have access to Aura Reading/Astral Perception... no big deal. But if you have an attribute of 6 and have access to spells, spirits and astral ... well then, that's a real magician in the works. To me that means you have to "buy" at character creation magical access as well as attribute. The access level is a blanket design point cost of course, for instance 5 (potential; random or otherwise) for first level, 10 (adepts; any kind) points for second level and 20 points for third level (full magician or Path of Magician). And yes, I would move Path of Magician (someone who can buy adept abilities and "full magician" things into something with the full cost of a full magician. Of course, I would also have rewritten the Path of Magician at the same time and got rid of the castrating power checks that exist already. Karma/Experience is currently, as it should be, the great leveler anyway.

In our games here (note the disclaimer) we have what most would call "High Magic" games. But it's a group decision ultimately. But as such, magic does have a higher tendency of prevalence amongst the PC's at the very least. Older characters (including mine own Enchanter) have learned that if they use their magic towards a more total benefit of the people (aka; the other PC's) then those people can support them more in turn.

To that end however; magic also has a trickle down effect in our games. If people (aka; the Public at Large) start to see more advanced forms of magic being used and that magic isn't available currently to them ... they tend to pursue it. It's the intel end of the magic inspiration curve. And that is the job of the GM to balance out the game, whatever that game is.

I guess with regards to Magic, I do see TONS of potential arenas in which it (the magic system) can be worked out better than currently is. I guess I just inherently do not trust many of the older developers/playtesters with understanding it in a way that is at least compatible to my group or myself. I do not have this trust because I've heard directly from many of them what their opinions of magical mechanics should be like as well as what the game world's overall magic should be like. And a lot of this simply doesn't mesh with mine own view(s).

Buy hey, we adapt, we continue, we game. (shrugs)
Cochise
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Build Points are a type of Priority system. 


With the same line of argument I can say that the current SR3 damage system is nothing but a hitpoint system ...

QUOTE
Since I coupled them together in my first post that you were replying to, I assumed (rut roh) that you'd realize I was going to continue with the same definition.


Looks like some kind of backpaddling there for me. You played around with priorities and said that ther's no indiaction that they will be removed. Coupling them in your first sentence doesn't change that.

QUOTE
And, again, there's never been any seperation of specific abilities beyond Full Magician, Aspected Magician, and Adept, and nothing suggests it will be otherwise either.


Yet so far no form of magician ever had to buy his initial magic rating like a normal attribute ... So there's nothing that suggests that all points you took for your assumption will remain that way either ...

QUOTE
My set of house rules are no more a valid reason to assume otherwise as Random Poster making a random guess that Magic will, for some strange reason, be so common anyone can buy Magic 1 real cheap.


Did I say something like that? Where?
The question remains: Where do you take it from that Magic 1 will be high priced?
To "speculate" once again: Even if magic is intended to be "depowered" as you put it, it'll already be depowered by the averaging effect you described.
Do I know? No... But you don't know either wink.gif

QUOTE
Which indicates that compared to now, Magic is being downpowered since, obviously, not all magicians get a free Magic 6 from the get-go for free.


Is that really an indication? I could come up with speculations where the overall powerlevel of magicians pretty much is the same as in SR3. Particularly when "assuming" what you called a "rampant idea": No special cost for being a magician.
In such a scenario the magician who put's 6 points into magic would pretty much end up just like the current mage in comparison to the mundane: The build points that previously automatically gave him magic 6 would then simply go into buying that magic rating if 6. No real gain or loss for the magician or the mundane ...

And no: I'm still not saying that any of those speculations is "correct", unless SR4 actually comes with such rules ...

QUOTE
Towards myself.


A little lesson on communications there: The message received is mainly dependant on the receiver. You cannot determine whether or not that paragraph felt "rude" to me or not, unless I tell you so. And I can assure you that for the majority of times your tone looks "rude" to me. But just as you, I don't care about that too much.
Others do care more ... that's usually the start of a bigger "flamewar" then ...

QUOTE
Yes, and I'm speculating based upon the released information and otherwise how the game currently works.


Which isn't a "solid" basis for speculations of that kind either.

QUOTE
This is as opposed to other people with "concerns" in this thread and others who are speculating based upon random and unfounded assumptions based purely upon rumors started by other posters who are every bit as ignorant about the new ruleset as everyone else.


In the end, there's no real difference. The "problem" arises when you or any other person starts to express his "feelings" against such "speculations" in a tone that is illperceived by others.
You have admitted yourself numerous times, that you are not a person with a low potential of conflict ... and that's why you usually end up in situations like this, where a "hypocrite" calls another "hypocrite" a "hypocrite" and the only difference between those "hypocrites" is the level of more or less good wording the next "insult" and / or "selfdefense". An d of course each of the "hypocrites" feels that he/she is the only one who's "right" ....

QUOTE
If only sticking to actual released information rather than random web rumors makes my assumptions "unfounded" and "weird" as opposed to the latter, I'll concede the point.


Take another look at your assumptions and then tell me if they really are based solely on released information on SR4. Basing assumptions on SR3 is more or less unfounded, since it's equally right to assume either no change on entry level costs for magic or the opposite ... until someone releases info on how it's gonna work in SR4 ...
Ol' Scratch
You know, I don't really care anymore. Stomp about and decry the sky is falling all you like. You've already decided you dislike the system, and that's that. Have fun in your misery.
Cochise
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
You know, I don't really care anymore. 

Yet another known reaction ...

QUOTE
Stomp about and decry the sky is falling all you like.


Some will certainly do just that or have already done so ...

QUOTE
You've already decided you dislike the system, and that's that.


... but I don't see where you take it from that I as part of that collective "you" that you're addressing here, already decided that I dislike the SR4 system. "Wild guess", "flame" or a to me unknown form of supernatural power similar to "telepathy"?

QUOTE
Have fun in your misery.


Actually right now, I'm enyoing myself very much ...
Kesh
Wow. I think I'm done. Every damn SR4 thread winds up with some asshat being a troll.

I may just stick to the main DS forum until GenCon. frown.gif
Bomber
As for high magic in the system, even though anyone can buy magic attribute (presumably), it may need to be pretty high before you can do anything decent.
fistandantilus4.0
Plus natural selection for the cheapies that take magic one , cast a force 2 spells, and end up killing themselves
Cochise
QUOTE (Bomber)
As for high magic in the system, even though anyone can buy magic attribute (presumably), it may need to be pretty high before you can do anything decent.

That would largely depend on the follwing so far unknown factors:

Does magic attribute limit force in any shape or form?
What will the new drain mechanism look like (yeah very likely something like willpower + X +- modifers, but how will things like physical or stun damage resolve with that role)?
Will it still be possible to "win by the sheer number of successes"?

____________


QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Plus natural selection for the cheapies that take magic one , cast a force 2 spells, and end up killing themselves


I have seen more than one adept of the magician's way or "burn-out mage" with an effecitive magic rating of 1 casting spells at force 4+ without taking any of the physical drain that automatically comes with that magic to force ratio ...
fistandantilus4.0
So have I, but what I'm thinking about is mostly how they do away with pools. If the drain system stays the say (assuming of course), it'll be a LOT harder to resist drain. if that drain is physical (once again, assuming the Force>magic rating remains the same), I can see this happening a lot more often. Resisting with only your will, no magic pool, and most likely little or no foci (assuming just after char gen, when you're morel ikely to still have a Magic:1), yeah, drain could suck.
Cochise
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
So have I, but what I'm thinking about is mostly how they do away with pools. If the drain system stays the say (assuming of course), it'll be a LOT harder to resist drain.

That's the big "if" here: The new mechanism is supposed to be used in all tests.
While I do agree that "if" the old way of handling drain stays in place, it'll be much harder to cast such spells, I'll instantly have to point out that keeping that drain mechanism would be against the design idea of a general purpose mechanism and particularly against the idea of "reduced number of special rules" ..

QUOTE
if that drain is physical (once again, assuming the Force>magic rating remains the same), I can see this happening a lot more often. Resisting with only your will, no magic pool, and most likely little or no foci (assuming just after char gen, when you're morel ikely to still have a Magic:1), yeah, drain could suck.


Under that assumption: Yes ...
fistandantilus4.0
Yep, definitely big 'if's'. I can (hehe) assume that they've got something else to compensate for that. just waiting to see what that something is really. In the mean time, just trying to keep clear that these are assumptions off of what little we know. Conjecture can be a pain sometimes.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Bomber @ Jun 4 2005, 05:47 PM)
...even though anyone can buy magic attribute (presumably)...

Actual Fact #1: Priorities are still used as part of character creation.
Actual Fact #2: Magicians (and Technomancers) have to buy their Magic (and Resonance) Attribute instead of getting it maxed out at 6 for free.

Absolutely Not a Fact Whatsoever #1: The Magic priority has been removed or even reduced in relative value.
Absolutely Not a Fact Whatsoever #2: Everyone can buy their Magic (or Resonance) Attribute without having the proper Magic (or Technomancer?) priority to do so.

ANaFW #1 and #2 are pure "I want to hate SR4 for whatever reason I can justify even if I have to make it up" theories based on zero actual facts thus far.
Critias
IIRC, we've been told outright that Magic (and Resonance) are "purchased like normal attributes." If that just means something as simple as "I sink two character point to get Magic 1, and two character points to get Resonance at 1," then that is the well-nigh worst case scenario that some of us are expressing fears about. None of us are hypothesizing, or even assuming (I don't recall anyone saying "OMG it's gonna be like this!!!11") that it will be the case, we're just stating that we vehemently hope it won't be. No one's creating panic based on assumptions -- we're expressing concern based on possibilities. There's a difference, whether you like to see it or not (how many times did you see "if" or "if not" in my post explaining my concern over an Earthdawn Adept-like setting?).

How do you know as an "actual fact" that that isn't the case? None of us are saying it is the case, we're saying we hope it isn't, but we don't know. If you do know, and would like to calm us about our fears that the initial point of Magic and/or Resonance aren't expensive enough to keep casual buyers from snatching them up, it'd be great if you want to do so. Not just by stating "ACTUAL FACT," but by backing it up with where you got the knowledge that such a fact is, well, actual.

If you know something we don't, and telling us so wouldn't violate your NDA, please share.
mfb
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Actual Fact #1: Priorities are still used as part of character creation.

where, exactly, is this stated?
Critias
In Funk's post. Duh.
Ol' Scratch
Those two facts are actual facts because they've actually been stated as fact. Hence "actual" and hence "fact."

As for the "purchased like a normal attribute" bit, it means exactly that -- you purchase it just like you do any other attribute. In no way does that mean or even imply that *anyone* can purchase it, only that it *is* purchased following the same rules.

Thinking it means anything other than exactly what it says is rampant speculation based on pure, unfounded assumption, especially when coupled with the other fact that Magic has *never* been a low or non-existant priority in the character creation process. Ever. Not once. Nor have they made any mention that they were boosting the occurance of Awakened characters, or stated that they were removing the Magic priority.

The only way that this kind of rampant spiel would be a valid concern is if they had also mentioned that the Magic priority had been completely removed from the game. But yanno, it's amazing how they haven't said or even remotely implied that anywhere. On top of that, not once have I seen any playtesters show any concern at all about magic becoming rampant amongst players, and I'm all but positive that if it did function the way you guys really, really seem to want it to work in order to validate your hatred of a system you know next to nothing about, I'm sure at least one of them (mfb in particular) would have hinted at it being a big concern that they hope would be addressed.

You might as well be running around crying about how everyone will be an Elf now because they have yet to state that they're not removing the Race priority, either.
mfb
i repeat. where, exactly, was fact #1 stated? i'm looking for chapter and verse, here, funk.
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