Full Version: The Power of Magic
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 4 2005, 07:58 PM) | ||
where, exactly, is this stated? |
Here. Build points are a form of priority in that the Magic priority currently costs 30 build points to be a Full Magician instead of the letter "A." Nevermind that I already mentioned that earlier in the thread, too.
EDIT: And thanks for giving me a whole two minutes to reply to your post before having to repeat yourself even though I was clearly in the process of writing a long post.
okay.
| QUOTE |
| Those two facts are actual facts because they've actually been stated as fact. Hence "actual" and hence "fact." |
And I'll ask again. Where was it stated? What makes it an actual fact, besides your ability to label it as such? Where does it say "priorities are still involved in character creation?" It says character points, very specifically, so far (nothing at all about the traditional Shadowrun priority system, A, B, etc).
We understand that you have to buy the attributes up (instead of getting them maxed for free) -- but where does it say a single word about the first level of them being prohibitively expensive compared to, say, the second level of them? I'm not stating outright that the first level isn't expensive, I'm wondering what you know that the rest of us don't, that you can state with absolute certainty that the first level is prohibitively expensive.
What makes it fact rather than assumption when you say that?
| QUOTE |
| As for the "purchased like a normal attribute" bit, it means exactly that -- you purchase it just like you do any other attribute. In no way does that mean or even imply that *anyone* can purchase it, only that it *is* purchased following the same rules. |
Right. It means (quoting you, exactly) "you purchase it just like you do any other attribute." Stop. Think about what you just said. Just like you do any other attribute. Stop again. Think, again.
That DOES mean (and even imply!) that *anyone* can purchase it, very specifically, and it DOES mean (and even imply, again!) that it is purchased following the same rules. I mean, that's what "you purchase it just like you do any other attribute" means, Funk. Break the sentence down word by word, if you want. Start with "just like" and "any other attribute," maybe. I dunno.
And that's the concern -- if the statement "you purchase it just like you do any other attribute" is true (and isn't just an assumption on your part, as well as mine, as well as everyone else's who reads the sentence) then it means it absolutely is available to everyone, and that it absolutely is purchased using the same rules. "Just like."
If I say "Strength is purchased just like Quickness," it's pretty clear what I'm saying, isn't it? Or "Body is purchased just like any other attribute," right?
That's where the concern/wariness/worrying comes from. Not from some deep rooted hatred of something we haven't seen yet. Not from some hidden psychological need to lash out a gave developers. Not from some itch that only feels scratched while having to talk to Doctor Funkenstein. But from the FAQ itself, telling us you plunk down a few character points and get a few Magic points, easy as pie.
And, in fact, from the implication that the first point or two of Magic or Resonance might actually be cheaper than the last point or two of Quickness or Strength. Consider that -- if raising an attribute above 3 costs more, and if (for the love of Christ, please notice I'm speculating, not stating a fact) starting a new attribute doesn't cost more... Won't that only increase the temptation to buy a point of Magic instead of finishing off a world-class attribute in Quickness?
If it's (I'm making numbers up) 10 character points for a 6 in Quickness instead of a 5, and it's only 2 character points for a 1 in Magic instead of a 0 (and if that 1 in Magic comes with all sorts of goodies, like astral sight and the ability to use foci), isn't it smarter, plain and simple, to invest in a touch of mojo?
If, if, if, if, if. Weepin' Jesus, please notice I'm saying "IF" and expressing a concern, and that it's all I'm doing. Please.
"Purchased LIKE a normal attribute" != "IS a normal attribute" let alone "IS a normal attribute that anyone can purchase."
To put it in perspective with the current system, you can "purchase Sorcery and Conjuring like a normal skill" even though you still have to be Awakened and have a Magic attribute of 1 or more in order to actually do so.
To put it in perspective with the current system, you can "purchase Sorcery and Conjuring like a normal skill" even though you still have to be Awakened and have a Magic attribute of 1 or more in order to actually do so.
Right. So it's not a normal attribute. It might not add to melee directly for a skill check, or add directly to etiquette dice for a social check, or even factor directly into the amount of dice you roll to shoot someone. So, we've established that after character creation, it's not a normal attribute (or, rather, we've assumed as much).
You just spend character points/"priorities" in order to get it like a normal attribute, at the time you're sitting down and making a character. Hey, whoops! That's what we're all scared of!
EDIT - since we're editing instead of starting new posts, now, fine. My immediate retort is "why put it in the perspective of the current system, when so much else is changing, and we've got no actual reason to do so?" You keep claiming it's an actual fact that it somehow is still remarkably difficult to be a Mage, starting out. That you're automatically ("Magically," almost!) gimped elsewhere in order to get a single Magic point. You claim it, and repeat it, and claim it again, and then repeat it just to make sure... but the actual fact is you can't back up that claim, because we haven't seen the finished product yet. So stop yelling at us for making guesses and expressing concerns, YOU DON'T KNOW ANY MORE THAN WE DO.
You just spend character points/"priorities" in order to get it like a normal attribute, at the time you're sitting down and making a character. Hey, whoops! That's what we're all scared of!
EDIT - since we're editing instead of starting new posts, now, fine. My immediate retort is "why put it in the perspective of the current system, when so much else is changing, and we've got no actual reason to do so?" You keep claiming it's an actual fact that it somehow is still remarkably difficult to be a Mage, starting out. That you're automatically ("Magically," almost!) gimped elsewhere in order to get a single Magic point. You claim it, and repeat it, and claim it again, and then repeat it just to make sure... but the actual fact is you can't back up that claim, because we haven't seen the finished product yet. So stop yelling at us for making guesses and expressing concerns, YOU DON'T KNOW ANY MORE THAN WE DO.
I didn't say I did know more than anyone else. I'm just basing my criticisms on actual facts rather than making stuff up so I have something to bitch and moan about just because I'm pouty over a new edition coming out.
Or should I start acting like some of you?
OH MY GOD!!! They're getting rid of elves and replacing them with sasquatches!!! I am never buying SR4, how dare those stupid developers do that? Don't they know elves are the single most important aspect of Shadowrun!? SR4 just won't be Shadowrun unless they have elves!!! Whine whine whine!!! What? I don't care if I have nothing to back that up with! They haven't said they're NOT doing it, but I'm still not going to ever buy SR4 just because it MIGHT be a possiblity regardless of how ridiculous it is!!!
Better?
How about this: Do you truly believe that's how they're going to handle Magic? If so, care to make a wager? If not, why do you insist on going on and on and on and on and on about how it is and how it's going to ruin the game for all eternity? Beyond the obvious reason, that is.
Or should I start acting like some of you?
OH MY GOD!!! They're getting rid of elves and replacing them with sasquatches!!! I am never buying SR4, how dare those stupid developers do that? Don't they know elves are the single most important aspect of Shadowrun!? SR4 just won't be Shadowrun unless they have elves!!! Whine whine whine!!! What? I don't care if I have nothing to back that up with! They haven't said they're NOT doing it, but I'm still not going to ever buy SR4 just because it MIGHT be a possiblity regardless of how ridiculous it is!!!
Better?
How about this: Do you truly believe that's how they're going to handle Magic? If so, care to make a wager? If not, why do you insist on going on and on and on and on and on about how it is and how it's going to ruin the game for all eternity? Beyond the obvious reason, that is.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Jun 4 2005, 09:47 PM) |
| ... rather than making stuff up so I have something to bitch and moan about just because I'm pouty over a new edition coming out. |
You're right. Instead, you're making stuff up (note, please, the still-missing actual facts) just to argue with those of us who aren't filled with glee and jubilation over the changes we know are coming to a game we like.
I'm really not sure why I even still read your posts, Doc. I'm really not.
But, for the record? Yes, I'll make a wager with you if you want. I'll bet you that a Magic attribute of 1 (and whatever comes with it) in SR4 will not be as prohibitively expensive as it is to be Awakened right now. I'll bet you that it is not going to cost 1/4 of your starting character points, the way it does to recreate a "priority A" spellcaster using the point-buy system in SR3.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| OH MY GOD!!! They're getting rid of elves and replacing them with sasquatches!!! |
We can dream...
It's already begun..... Rexy on the Tir council
Next, the world!
Next, the world!
| QUOTE |
| No, I'm assuming things are remaining the same unless specifically mentioned that they're not. |
After all those fundamental changes to the dice mechanic, attributes, nature of the matrix, karma, dice pools, and so on, you're still assuming that rulesy details are staying the same unless it's mentioned otherwise?
This sounds rather unwise to me.
This sounds rather unwise to me.
Isn't really weired that Doc F, - a prolific DS poster - didn't post much at all int he SR4 forum until Patrick stepped out?
And Doc's posts have the same tone as Patrick....
*Strokes Chin* Hmmmmm.....
I've mentioned it before, but maybe it's possible that different levels of Magic attribute offer different levels of access to magic - and that in SR4 Magic and cyber will not mix at all.
And if you are purchasing magic attribute points, is there another cost to become awakened? If not then how will it work to be a Phys ad? They've mentioned that it will be expensive to get past 3 at char gen in any attribute - is this gonna suck for the physad and his magic attribute?
I was hoping for more on magic and char gen in the faqs.
And Doc's posts have the same tone as Patrick....
*Strokes Chin* Hmmmmm.....
I've mentioned it before, but maybe it's possible that different levels of Magic attribute offer different levels of access to magic - and that in SR4 Magic and cyber will not mix at all.
And if you are purchasing magic attribute points, is there another cost to become awakened? If not then how will it work to be a Phys ad? They've mentioned that it will be expensive to get past 3 at char gen in any attribute - is this gonna suck for the physad and his magic attribute?
I was hoping for more on magic and char gen in the faqs.
| QUOTE (Eldritch) |
| Isn't really weired that Doc F, - a prolific DS poster - didn't post much at all int he SR4 forum until Patrick stepped out? And Doc's posts have the same tone as Patrick.... *Strokes Chin* Hmmmmm..... |
Eldricht, I'm sorry, but that's just too Scooby-Doo
Ruh-ro Raggy!
I still am at a loss for what the definition of a "priority" is.
If we are looking at the use of the word in SR3 terminology, then ABCDE it is. Otherwise, my priority is to make it through the day without killing anyone.
I still am at a loss for what the definition of a "priority" is.
If we are looking at the use of the word in SR3 terminology, then ABCDE it is. Otherwise, my priority is to make it through the day without killing anyone.
Priority/Category/Classification/Subdivision/Division/Group/whatever. Take your pick of words. All three currently canon character creation methods have priorities, one uses letters, one uses numbers 0-4 out of a pool of 10, and another uses numbers 0-60 out of a pool of 123.
Uh oh, I just used the word "pool." Best get those Pitchforks of Voluntary Ignorance waving in the air now, too, since "in SR3 terminology" that means I'm referring to dice pools! Context and common sense be damned.
Uh oh, I just used the word "pool." Best get those Pitchforks of Voluntary Ignorance waving in the air now, too, since "in SR3 terminology" that means I'm referring to dice pools! Context and common sense be damned.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Priority/Category/Classification/Subdivision/Division/Group/whatever. Take your pick of words. All three currently canon character creation methods have priorities, one uses letters, one uses numbers 0-4 out of a pool of 10, and another uses numbers 0-60 out of a pool of 123. Uh oh, I just used the word "pool." Best get those Pitchforks of Voluntary Ignorance waving in the air now, too, since "in SR3 terminology" that means I'm referring to dice pools! Context and common sense be damned. |
Priority:
That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Gotta love it when that people have no real counterargument, they fall to pathetic attempts at mocking terminology even they know full well what's being said. All the while trying to make the person they're mocking look like they're the idiot instead of themselves. Gotta love it even more when they do it right after the person they're trying to mock clearly defines how they were using the term.
<thumbs up> Keep up the good work.
<thumbs up> Keep up the good work.
I agree on the weakness of terminology beatdowns. However going by the peculiar wording used, I think BitBasher was making a Princess Bride reference joke?
What Funk, Not eat your baby this morning? A good majority of your post here in SR4 have been combative - and just a little insulting.
Jeeze, chill.
******
Scooby yes, but not a denial from him *Strokes chin again* Hmmmmmm
Of course he'll just insult me in some vague way and say something like "That doesn't deem a response..."
Jeeze, chill.
******
Scooby yes, but not a denial from him *Strokes chin again* Hmmmmmm
Of course he'll just insult me in some vague way and say something like "That doesn't deem a response..."
| QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 4 2005, 09:51 PM) |
| I'll bet you that a Magic attribute of 1 (and whatever comes with it) in SR4 will not be as prohibitively expensive as it is to be Awakened right now. I'll bet you that it is not going to cost 1/4 of your starting character points, the way it does to recreate a "priority A" spellcaster using the point-buy system in SR3. |
Hum ... you can bet. But as you are not so good in calculation, I will remind you that A) gave you 6 in magic (in sr4 you have to by this ability, and a 6 will be very expensive),
and it gave you spell points to distribute, conjuring, sorcering, aura reading and astral projection.
By the way A) wasn't worth 1/4 of the points ... maybe full magician was worth that in the points system creation, but here you just have to distribute priorities ...
I guess the new system will make fairly easy to have full magician at a better price, but less powerful than A) priority ones (won't have 6 in magic as a starter kit).
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Priority/Category/Classification/Subdivision/Division/Group/whatever. Take your pick of words. All three currently canon character creation methods have priorities, one uses letters, one uses numbers 0-4 out of a pool of 10, and another uses numbers 0-60 out of a pool of 123. Uh oh, I just used the word "pool." Best get those Pitchforks of Voluntary Ignorance waving in the air now, too, since "in SR3 terminology" that means I'm referring to dice pools! Context and common sense be damned. |
I was just pointing out that "priority" is a loaded term when used regarding character generation and that you better choose your words carefully or you will get responses like mine. I wasn't the only one confused by your post, oh paragon of clarity.
If you want to make your point, do it without the rancor and I may give a flying fuck.
| QUOTE (Taki @ Jun 6 2005, 11:58 AM) | ||
Hum ... you can bet. But as you are not so good in calculation, I will remind you that A) gave you 6 in magic (in sr4 you have to by this ability, and a 6 will be very expensive), and it gave you spell points to distribute, conjuring, sorcering, aura reading and astral projection. By the way A) wasn't worth 1/4 of the points ... maybe full magician was worth that in the points system creation, but here you just have to distribute priorities ... |
You must have missed the part where he said, using the point-buy system in SR3.
Full mages are 30 points. Default BP is 125. That's 24% of your total BP at chargen, or almost 1/4.
There is no middle ground in that, either. You don't buy Magic at 1/5 BP. All he is saying is that he bets that you can buy Magic Attribute at 1 for less than 24% of your total BP, which is the only value given to full access to magic at chargen, and you'll have full access to all magic even though your Magic rating is only 1.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Gotta love it when that people have no real counterargument, they fall to pathetic attempts at mocking terminology even they know full well what's being said. All the while trying to make the person they're mocking look like they're the idiot instead of themselves. Gotta love it even more when they do it right after the person they're trying to mock clearly defines how they were using the term. <thumbs up> Keep up the good work. |
Dude, Funk, I'm not even in this argument at all, either side. I haven't posted in this thread at all that I recall except a wee bit of humor there. Calm down a bit, Take some deep breaths.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Dude, Funk, I'm not even in this argument at all, either side. |
Translation: "I just felt like trolling for the sake of trolling."
Gotcha.
| QUOTE (Edward) |
And if Jedi are to be possible will there finally be a way to create a light sabre, |
[QUOTE]
I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but I just had to say something on this. There is a reasonable means of creating a lightsabre-like effect using MitS. It's basically a physical combat spell that's "restricted in range" and sustained. True, according to the modifiers a sustained effect inflicts higher Drain, but unlike an instantaneous combat spell, a sustained spell inflicts this Drain once, then the effect can be used on as many targets as you want as long as the effect is sustained. I can concieve of specialized foci just for creating this effect.
I picked up the game recently after a long time. There's been a lot of changes, a lot of which I like, though I did find that oddities section in MitS…disappointing. So, as a kind of mental masterbation, I'd decided to explore SR's magic through the eyes of the psychic and prophet.
That little effect I described above works equally well with both. For the psychic it would be more like the hypertech of the lightsabre. For the prophet it would be a little like Gabriel's sword, especially if the fetish or focus were a large weapon and the effect were changed to an elemental manipulation, e.g. fire.
BTW, will Essence still be the same in SR4? I see that in SR3, the only human racial modifier is faster acquisition of Karma Pool. I proposed to a friend that the house rules should allow humans to possess an Essence of 9, which is in keeping with the net racial modifiers applied to the rest of metahumanity, four points.
My rationalization? That baseline humans are less optimized than the rest of their metahuman cousins. They're more flexible in how they can be modified. They're more capable in the key technology of SR than the paradigmatically anachronistic races. Implant technology.
Of course, if the racial modifiers have changed in SR4… The point is that the cost of each race, in my opinion, was more a function of rarity than game mechanics.
The creators behind SR state their bias against class-based restrictions. Hopefully, I can interpret this as "equal for all" when it concerns player characters. This has not been the case with humans and, to a lesser extent, magic.
funk, you know that thing you do, where you get so wrapped up in a single side of a given argument that the kernel of things you're right about get so gummed up with you being an asshat that no one bothers actually arguing with you, because you'll just respond with vitriol instead of logic?
you're doing it again.
you're doing it again.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| You must have missed the part where he said, using the point-buy system in SR3. Full mages are 30 points. Default BP is 125. That's 24% of your total BP at chargen, or almost 1/4. There is no middle ground in that, either. You don't buy Magic at 1/5 BP. All he is saying is that he bets that you can buy Magic Attribute at 1 for less than 24% of your total BP, which is the only value given to full access to magic at chargen, and you'll have full access to all magic even though your Magic rating is only 1. |
I am just telling you are doing a comparison on such different things ... Points and priorities are NOT the same system (even if ...).
May be you wanted to say : "SR4 will allow a broader range of magical power for starter character, especially for magician who were too much tied with fixed magic rating, and almost fixed spell numbers."
Uh no. You couldn't say that. You don't like SR4.
First off, you're talking (apparently) to Crimsondude, but about me. Don't say "you, you, you," in a direct quote to him about my bet with Funk. I guess CD and I are easy to get mixed up, though, what with us looking exactly alike, both having misgivings about SR4, and both our names starting with, y'know, capital c's. Or something.
Second -- pay fucking attention. Reread my post. I specifically stated that the "1/4 your starting points" was what it costs in the point-buy system. There's no way to recreate the priority system in a non-priority (SR4) system. We've been told creation is going to be points-based in SR4, so the points-based version of it for SR3 will have to be the grounds for any sort of numerical quantification, won't it? If I was trying to compare SR3's priority-based system to SR4's point-by, then I'd be as stupid as you seem to think I am. Instead, I'd suggest some remedial reading comprehension classes. You're claiming I'm comparing two things I'm not comparing, and blaming me for how nonsensical it is to compare the two things (or, rather, you're claiming, and blaming, Crimsondude, who has nothing directly to do with my statement, of that, yet more proof maybe you need glasses).
Now. The default, listed, point-buy base in SR3 (via the SR Companion) is 120 bp. It costs 30 of those to get the "full mage" treatment (recreating exactly, as I said in my initial post, a "Magic A" character). 30 bp is 1/4 of 120 bp. It costs, to recreate a Magic A character, 1/4 of your starting build points, that being the case. 30 is 25% of 120, right? Start-->Programs-->Accessories-->Calculator. Double check me, if you want, but I'm pretty sure.
I never said points and priorities are the same (you're thinking of Doc Funk, who uses "priorities" the way those little blue fuckers in the cartoons use the word "smurf"). If you feel that the priority system and the current, SR3, point-buy system aren't balanced and fair when compared to one another, that sounds like something you should take up with the dev team, not me. As it is, SR4 is point buy (so the SR3 point buy is going to make for the easier comparison). To try and compare SR4's point-buy system to SR3's priority would be like saying "I like to wash my car more than I rutebega sandwich platter." Not only does it make for an incomplete sentence, but the only things in that incomplete sentence have nothing to do with one another.
Please try to keep up -- I have never, ever, compared a Magic 6 SR3 character to a Magic 6 SR4 character. That is, quite simply, not what I'm talking about. What I am talking about is a concern that Magic 1 will be very, very, inexpensive to purchase. My concern is compounded by the fact that (according to the FAQ) higher levels of attributes cost more (which, by nature, makes lower levels of attributes more attractive). My concern is further compounded by the fact we've been told Magic is purchased "just like every other attribute" (meaning that low levels of it cost less than high levels of, say, Body or Strength or what-have-you).
Now, keep reading, and pay very carefull attention, please. I am about to present an IF/THEN statement, hopefully to clarify for the last fucking time my exact concern.
If Magic 1 is easy to purchase and if it still comes with the ability to cast low-Force spells or only a few Adept power points (think of how many force 1 or 2 spells would be great to have in real life, or how many handy tricks you could add to a Sammie or something with even just a single PP) and if it comes with Astral Vision, Assensing, or even Astral Projection then I think something will be wrong, because you're likely to see quite a few characters sink their last few build points into Magic 1 "just because."
What's more, I'm willing to bet that this concern is -- given what we've been told about SR4 thus far -- a semi-valid one. Doc Funk (and others) are assuming (which only pro-SR4 people, not SR-4 apprehensive or anti-SR4 people, are allowed to do) that the issue is already taken care of, has already been resolved, and is of no consequence. I am not assuming that, because I have no reason to assume it. As such, I was willing to accept his offer of a wager (which he has yet to reply to), by expressing very clearly the nature of that bet and it's acceptance. Which is to say, I bet it will not be prohibitively expensive (as a for instance, 1/4 of your starting build points) to get a working Magic of 1.
Am I done having to repeat myself so people understand me now? Or not?
Second -- pay fucking attention. Reread my post. I specifically stated that the "1/4 your starting points" was what it costs in the point-buy system. There's no way to recreate the priority system in a non-priority (SR4) system. We've been told creation is going to be points-based in SR4, so the points-based version of it for SR3 will have to be the grounds for any sort of numerical quantification, won't it? If I was trying to compare SR3's priority-based system to SR4's point-by, then I'd be as stupid as you seem to think I am. Instead, I'd suggest some remedial reading comprehension classes. You're claiming I'm comparing two things I'm not comparing, and blaming me for how nonsensical it is to compare the two things (or, rather, you're claiming, and blaming, Crimsondude, who has nothing directly to do with my statement, of that, yet more proof maybe you need glasses).
Now. The default, listed, point-buy base in SR3 (via the SR Companion) is 120 bp. It costs 30 of those to get the "full mage" treatment (recreating exactly, as I said in my initial post, a "Magic A" character). 30 bp is 1/4 of 120 bp. It costs, to recreate a Magic A character, 1/4 of your starting build points, that being the case. 30 is 25% of 120, right? Start-->Programs-->Accessories-->Calculator. Double check me, if you want, but I'm pretty sure.
I never said points and priorities are the same (you're thinking of Doc Funk, who uses "priorities" the way those little blue fuckers in the cartoons use the word "smurf"). If you feel that the priority system and the current, SR3, point-buy system aren't balanced and fair when compared to one another, that sounds like something you should take up with the dev team, not me. As it is, SR4 is point buy (so the SR3 point buy is going to make for the easier comparison). To try and compare SR4's point-buy system to SR3's priority would be like saying "I like to wash my car more than I rutebega sandwich platter." Not only does it make for an incomplete sentence, but the only things in that incomplete sentence have nothing to do with one another.
Please try to keep up -- I have never, ever, compared a Magic 6 SR3 character to a Magic 6 SR4 character. That is, quite simply, not what I'm talking about. What I am talking about is a concern that Magic 1 will be very, very, inexpensive to purchase. My concern is compounded by the fact that (according to the FAQ) higher levels of attributes cost more (which, by nature, makes lower levels of attributes more attractive). My concern is further compounded by the fact we've been told Magic is purchased "just like every other attribute" (meaning that low levels of it cost less than high levels of, say, Body or Strength or what-have-you).
Now, keep reading, and pay very carefull attention, please. I am about to present an IF/THEN statement, hopefully to clarify for the last fucking time my exact concern.
If Magic 1 is easy to purchase and if it still comes with the ability to cast low-Force spells or only a few Adept power points (think of how many force 1 or 2 spells would be great to have in real life, or how many handy tricks you could add to a Sammie or something with even just a single PP) and if it comes with Astral Vision, Assensing, or even Astral Projection then I think something will be wrong, because you're likely to see quite a few characters sink their last few build points into Magic 1 "just because."
What's more, I'm willing to bet that this concern is -- given what we've been told about SR4 thus far -- a semi-valid one. Doc Funk (and others) are assuming (which only pro-SR4 people, not SR-4 apprehensive or anti-SR4 people, are allowed to do) that the issue is already taken care of, has already been resolved, and is of no consequence. I am not assuming that, because I have no reason to assume it. As such, I was willing to accept his offer of a wager (which he has yet to reply to), by expressing very clearly the nature of that bet and it's acceptance. Which is to say, I bet it will not be prohibitively expensive (as a for instance, 1/4 of your starting build points) to get a working Magic of 1.
Am I done having to repeat myself so people understand me now? Or not?
You are right Critias, everything will depend on how things will be organized at creation.
I like the idea of having a 1, 2 or 3 magic attribute in some cases (the shaman/magus that never really worked to improve his skills, or even the phys ad ...). Something was flawed (in my mind) with the previous system. I was playing a shaman adept, totem Cat. And he was in fact really more powerfull than a regular shaman or magus. This is not normal, in my opinion.
A good way to avoid that, is the possibility to purchase your own rate in magic attribute. As you stated, the main problem is that the dev team has to find a way to prevent people from buying magic for their street sam (because this would be ridiculous, and furthermore, magic is something quiet uncommon in the end in the 6 th world). But, a safety would be to have a "merits" to buy, which would cost X points, to be able to purchase your magic attribute. Or I could even think to another system : the loss of essence would be directly substracted from your magic attribute ; if you have 2 in your attribute, and cyberware for 1.0001, your magic attribute would be considered as 0.
All will depend on how things will be done....
I like the idea of having a 1, 2 or 3 magic attribute in some cases (the shaman/magus that never really worked to improve his skills, or even the phys ad ...). Something was flawed (in my mind) with the previous system. I was playing a shaman adept, totem Cat. And he was in fact really more powerfull than a regular shaman or magus. This is not normal, in my opinion.
A good way to avoid that, is the possibility to purchase your own rate in magic attribute. As you stated, the main problem is that the dev team has to find a way to prevent people from buying magic for their street sam (because this would be ridiculous, and furthermore, magic is something quiet uncommon in the end in the 6 th world). But, a safety would be to have a "merits" to buy, which would cost X points, to be able to purchase your magic attribute. Or I could even think to another system : the loss of essence would be directly substracted from your magic attribute ; if you have 2 in your attribute, and cyberware for 1.0001, your magic attribute would be considered as 0.
All will depend on how things will be done....
uh man. It's a game.
I was speaking to you, both of you (CrimsonD explained your word). As far I understand what you say, I do not agree with certains assumptions you've made, and no, I won't give you an argumentation.
Because there is too much hate in your post, so I won't enter your "fight".
Bye.
I was speaking to you, both of you (CrimsonD explained your word). As far I understand what you say, I do not agree with certains assumptions you've made, and no, I won't give you an argumentation.
Because there is too much hate in your post, so I won't enter your "fight".
Bye.
Thats been a concern of mine since it was mentioned that magic is an attribute that must be bought up at char gen as well Critias.
And while I still have some concerns about it,I've given it some thought.
IIRC they have yet to mention what sort of cyber check they will have - I'm gonna go with the assumption that they will call it essence again - they may not, but I'd think that there will be some sort of mechanic involved in keeping cyber in line.
So a sammie spends a few points and takes a pount of magic, his 5.5 points of essence will obliterate it and make it impossible ofr him to do anything with it. Either spell casting or adept powers.
It's an assumption, but I think we can all safely assume they will gave some sort of magic/cyber check system in place to go along with the 'magic and cyber' don't mix. If this is not the case, and mages can cyber up all they want, I will be completely floored. I just don't see it.
Now, that brings up the following: What does one ppoint of magic buy you?
Spell Casting? Yeah, thats probably true, with the same limitations we have now concerning force/drain/damage.
Astral Persception? Projection? Conjuring? Dunno, maybe those come with higher levels of Magic attribute. Maybe they are staggering it:
Magic Attribute Abilities
1 basic spell casting
2
3 Astral Perception
4 Conjuring
5 Astral Projection
6 Metamagic
Please don't blast that - it's just an example. It could be any order, or combination.
And if buying attributes over 3 is 'prohibitivley expensive' as I belive has been mentioned before, that would keep conjuring and projection out of the beginning player's hands. Vastly simplfying (magic)game play in the beginning.
Okay, that may even be acceptable to everyone. But what about magic loss? Ouch. It just became much more important to not suffer that magic loss.
I'm going to assume that essence does not cause magic loss - but you subtract it from your magic attribute to determine your abilities.
And if you do suffer magic loss due to injury, can you buy it back with karma? Or can you off set it with geas?
A lot of questions, and a lot of wil ass assumptions on my part..
What do you think?
It seems doable. The only thing it doesn't keep magic away form is that uncyabered mundane. He could still buy a point of magic - but could write it off as having been a dabbler - either in magic or PhysAd. Then he's still got to spend som sort of resource on spells....
*shrug* Like i said, i've put some thought into it...
And while I still have some concerns about it,I've given it some thought.
IIRC they have yet to mention what sort of cyber check they will have - I'm gonna go with the assumption that they will call it essence again - they may not, but I'd think that there will be some sort of mechanic involved in keeping cyber in line.
So a sammie spends a few points and takes a pount of magic, his 5.5 points of essence will obliterate it and make it impossible ofr him to do anything with it. Either spell casting or adept powers.
It's an assumption, but I think we can all safely assume they will gave some sort of magic/cyber check system in place to go along with the 'magic and cyber' don't mix. If this is not the case, and mages can cyber up all they want, I will be completely floored. I just don't see it.
Now, that brings up the following: What does one ppoint of magic buy you?
Spell Casting? Yeah, thats probably true, with the same limitations we have now concerning force/drain/damage.
Astral Persception? Projection? Conjuring? Dunno, maybe those come with higher levels of Magic attribute. Maybe they are staggering it:
Magic Attribute Abilities
1 basic spell casting
2
3 Astral Perception
4 Conjuring
5 Astral Projection
6 Metamagic
Please don't blast that - it's just an example. It could be any order, or combination.
And if buying attributes over 3 is 'prohibitivley expensive' as I belive has been mentioned before, that would keep conjuring and projection out of the beginning player's hands. Vastly simplfying (magic)game play in the beginning.
Okay, that may even be acceptable to everyone. But what about magic loss? Ouch. It just became much more important to not suffer that magic loss.
I'm going to assume that essence does not cause magic loss - but you subtract it from your magic attribute to determine your abilities.
And if you do suffer magic loss due to injury, can you buy it back with karma? Or can you off set it with geas?
A lot of questions, and a lot of wil ass assumptions on my part..
What do you think?
It seems doable. The only thing it doesn't keep magic away form is that uncyabered mundane. He could still buy a point of magic - but could write it off as having been a dabbler - either in magic or PhysAd. Then he's still got to spend som sort of resource on spells....
*shrug* Like i said, i've put some thought into it...
Agree with Eldritch.
There is rules, and there is settings.
Settings says : cyber goes against essence. and essence loss means magic loss (or different things).
No matter how it is ruled, a magician is able to perceive essence and magic of a subject.
Magic of a mage can be weaker than magic of an adept (rank in magic doesn't mean there is any ability on astrally projection, conjuring or things like that).
Those fact belong to the setting of SR, changing those general rules is changing the world, not just the system.
There is rules, and there is settings.
Settings says : cyber goes against essence. and essence loss means magic loss (or different things).
No matter how it is ruled, a magician is able to perceive essence and magic of a subject.
Magic of a mage can be weaker than magic of an adept (rank in magic doesn't mean there is any ability on astrally projection, conjuring or things like that).
Those fact belong to the setting of SR, changing those general rules is changing the world, not just the system.
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