 The Power of Magic, Will magic be more versatile in SR4? |
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 Jun 5 2005, 02:04 AM
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#51
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Immortal Elf  Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890  |
Here. Build points are a form of priority in that the Magic priority currently costs 30 build points to be a Full Magician instead of the letter "A." Nevermind that I already mentioned that earlier in the thread, too. EDIT: And thanks for giving me a whole two minutes to reply to your post before having to repeat yourself even though I was clearly in the process of writing a long post. |
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Jun 5 2005, 02:04 AM
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#52
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
okay.
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Jun 5 2005, 02:13 AM
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#53
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
And I'll ask again. Where was it stated? What makes it an actual fact, besides your ability to label it as such? Where does it say "priorities are still involved in character creation?" It says character points, very specifically, so far (nothing at all about the traditional Shadowrun priority system, A, B, etc). We understand that you have to buy the attributes up (instead of getting them maxed for free) -- but where does it say a single word about the first level of them being prohibitively expensive compared to, say, the second level of them? I'm not stating outright that the first level isn't expensive, I'm wondering what you know that the rest of us don't, that you can state with absolute certainty that the first level is prohibitively expensive. What makes it fact rather than assumption when you say that?
Right. It means (quoting you, exactly) "you purchase it just like you do any other attribute." Stop. Think about what you just said. Just like you do any other attribute. Stop again. Think, again. That DOES mean (and even imply!) that *anyone* can purchase it, very specifically, and it DOES mean (and even imply, again!) that it is purchased following the same rules. I mean, that's what "you purchase it just like you do any other attribute" means, Funk. Break the sentence down word by word, if you want. Start with "just like" and "any other attribute," maybe. I dunno. And that's the concern -- if the statement "you purchase it just like you do any other attribute" is true (and isn't just an assumption on your part, as well as mine, as well as everyone else's who reads the sentence) then it means it absolutely is available to everyone, and that it absolutely is purchased using the same rules. "Just like." If I say "Strength is purchased just like Quickness," it's pretty clear what I'm saying, isn't it? Or "Body is purchased just like any other attribute," right? That's where the concern/wariness/worrying comes from. Not from some deep rooted hatred of something we haven't seen yet. Not from some hidden psychological need to lash out a gave developers. Not from some itch that only feels scratched while having to talk to Doctor Funkenstein. But from the FAQ itself, telling us you plunk down a few character points and get a few Magic points, easy as pie. And, in fact, from the implication that the first point or two of Magic or Resonance might actually be cheaper than the last point or two of Quickness or Strength. Consider that -- if raising an attribute above 3 costs more, and if (for the love of Christ, please notice I'm speculating, not stating a fact) starting a new attribute doesn't cost more... Won't that only increase the temptation to buy a point of Magic instead of finishing off a world-class attribute in Quickness? If it's (I'm making numbers up) 10 character points for a 6 in Quickness instead of a 5, and it's only 2 character points for a 1 in Magic instead of a 0 (and if that 1 in Magic comes with all sorts of goodies, like astral sight and the ability to use foci), isn't it smarter, plain and simple, to invest in a touch of mojo? If, if, if, if, if. Weepin' Jesus, please notice I'm saying "IF" and expressing a concern, and that it's all I'm doing. Please. |
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Jun 5 2005, 02:17 AM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
"Purchased LIKE a normal attribute" != "IS a normal attribute" let alone "IS a normal attribute that anyone can purchase."
To put it in perspective with the current system, you can "purchase Sorcery and Conjuring like a normal skill" even though you still have to be Awakened and have a Magic attribute of 1 or more in order to actually do so. |
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Jun 5 2005, 02:19 AM
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#55
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Right. So it's not a normal attribute. It might not add to melee directly for a skill check, or add directly to etiquette dice for a social check, or even factor directly into the amount of dice you roll to shoot someone. So, we've established that after character creation, it's not a normal attribute (or, rather, we've assumed as much).
You just spend character points/"priorities" in order to get it like a normal attribute, at the time you're sitting down and making a character. Hey, whoops! That's what we're all scared of! EDIT - since we're editing instead of starting new posts, now, fine. My immediate retort is "why put it in the perspective of the current system, when so much else is changing, and we've got no actual reason to do so?" You keep claiming it's an actual fact that it somehow is still remarkably difficult to be a Mage, starting out. That you're automatically ("Magically," almost!) gimped elsewhere in order to get a single Magic point. You claim it, and repeat it, and claim it again, and then repeat it just to make sure... but the actual fact is you can't back up that claim, because we haven't seen the finished product yet. So stop yelling at us for making guesses and expressing concerns, YOU DON'T KNOW ANY MORE THAN WE DO. |
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Jun 5 2005, 02:47 AM
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#56
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I didn't say I did know more than anyone else. I'm just basing my criticisms on actual facts rather than making stuff up so I have something to bitch and moan about just because I'm pouty over a new edition coming out.
Or should I start acting like some of you? OH MY GOD!!! They're getting rid of elves and replacing them with sasquatches!!! I am never buying SR4, how dare those stupid developers do that? Don't they know elves are the single most important aspect of Shadowrun!? SR4 just won't be Shadowrun unless they have elves!!! Whine whine whine!!! What? I don't care if I have nothing to back that up with! They haven't said they're NOT doing it, but I'm still not going to ever buy SR4 just because it MIGHT be a possiblity regardless of how ridiculous it is!!! Better? How about this: Do you truly believe that's how they're going to handle Magic? If so, care to make a wager? If not, why do you insist on going on and on and on and on and on about how it is and how it's going to ruin the game for all eternity? Beyond the obvious reason, that is. |
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Jun 5 2005, 02:51 AM
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#57
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
You're right. Instead, you're making stuff up (note, please, the still-missing actual facts) just to argue with those of us who aren't filled with glee and jubilation over the changes we know are coming to a game we like. I'm really not sure why I even still read your posts, Doc. I'm really not. But, for the record? Yes, I'll make a wager with you if you want. I'll bet you that a Magic attribute of 1 (and whatever comes with it) in SR4 will not be as prohibitively expensive as it is to be Awakened right now. I'll bet you that it is not going to cost 1/4 of your starting character points, the way it does to recreate a "priority A" spellcaster using the point-buy system in SR3. |
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Jun 5 2005, 04:05 AM
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#58
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
We can dream... |
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Jun 5 2005, 04:13 AM
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#59
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
It's already begun..... Rexy on the Tir council
Next, the world! |
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Jun 5 2005, 07:42 AM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
After all those fundamental changes to the dice mechanic, attributes, nature of the matrix, karma, dice pools, and so on, you're still assuming that rulesy details are staying the same unless it's mentioned otherwise?
This sounds rather unwise to me. |
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Jun 5 2005, 08:33 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Isn't really weired that Doc F, - a prolific DS poster - didn't post much at all int he SR4 forum until Patrick stepped out?
And Doc's posts have the same tone as Patrick.... *Strokes Chin* Hmmmmm..... I've mentioned it before, but maybe it's possible that different levels of Magic attribute offer different levels of access to magic - and that in SR4 Magic and cyber will not mix at all. And if you are purchasing magic attribute points, is there another cost to become awakened? If not then how will it work to be a Phys ad? They've mentioned that it will be expensive to get past 3 at char gen in any attribute - is this gonna suck for the physad and his magic attribute? I was hoping for more on magic and char gen in the faqs. |
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Jun 5 2005, 09:33 AM
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#62
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Eldricht, I'm sorry, but that's just too Scooby-Doo |
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Jun 6 2005, 04:13 PM
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#63
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Ruh-ro Raggy!
I still am at a loss for what the definition of a "priority" is. If we are looking at the use of the word in SR3 terminology, then ABCDE it is. Otherwise, my priority is to make it through the day without killing anyone. |
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Jun 6 2005, 04:29 PM
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#64
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Priority/Category/Classification/Subdivision/Division/Group/whatever. Take your pick of words. All three currently canon character creation methods have priorities, one uses letters, one uses numbers 0-4 out of a pool of 10, and another uses numbers 0-60 out of a pool of 123.
Uh oh, I just used the word "pool." Best get those Pitchforks of Voluntary Ignorance waving in the air now, too, since "in SR3 terminology" that means I'm referring to dice pools! Context and common sense be damned. |
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Jun 6 2005, 05:12 PM
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#65
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Priority: That word, I do not think it means what you think it means. :D |
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Jun 6 2005, 05:23 PM
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#66
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Gotta love it when that people have no real counterargument, they fall to pathetic attempts at mocking terminology even they know full well what's being said. All the while trying to make the person they're mocking look like they're the idiot instead of themselves. Gotta love it even more when they do it right after the person they're trying to mock clearly defines how they were using the term.
<thumbs up> Keep up the good work. |
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Jun 6 2005, 05:29 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 4-June 05 Member No.: 7,427 |
I agree on the weakness of terminology beatdowns. However going by the peculiar wording used, I think BitBasher was making a Princess Bride reference joke?
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Jun 6 2005, 05:31 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
What Funk, Not eat your baby this morning? A good majority of your post here in SR4 have been combative - and just a little insulting.
Jeeze, chill. ****** Scooby yes, but not a denial from him *Strokes chin again* Hmmmmmm Of course he'll just insult me in some vague way and say something like "That doesn't deem a response..." |
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Jun 6 2005, 05:58 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
Hum ... you can bet. But as you are not so good in calculation, I will remind you that A) gave you 6 in magic (in sr4 you have to by this ability, and a 6 will be very expensive), and it gave you spell points to distribute, conjuring, sorcering, aura reading and astral projection. By the way A) wasn't worth 1/4 of the points ... maybe full magician was worth that in the points system creation, but here you just have to distribute priorities ... I guess the new system will make fairly easy to have full magician at a better price, but less powerful than A) priority ones (won't have 6 in magic as a starter kit). |
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Jun 6 2005, 06:28 PM
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#70
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I was just pointing out that "priority" is a loaded term when used regarding character generation and that you better choose your words carefully or you will get responses like mine. I wasn't the only one confused by your post, oh paragon of clarity. If you want to make your point, do it without the rancor and I may give a flying fuck. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 6 2005, 08:09 PM
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#71
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Guests |
You must have missed the part where he said, using the point-buy system in SR3. Full mages are 30 points. Default BP is 125. That's 24% of your total BP at chargen, or almost 1/4. There is no middle ground in that, either. You don't buy Magic at 1/5 BP. All he is saying is that he bets that you can buy Magic Attribute at 1 for less than 24% of your total BP, which is the only value given to full access to magic at chargen, and you'll have full access to all magic even though your Magic rating is only 1. |
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Jun 6 2005, 08:46 PM
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#72
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Dude, Funk, I'm not even in this argument at all, either side. I haven't posted in this thread at all that I recall except a wee bit of humor there. Calm down a bit, Take some deep breaths. :) |
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Jun 6 2005, 08:50 PM
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#73
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Translation: "I just felt like trolling for the sake of trolling." Gotcha. |
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Jun 7 2005, 01:19 AM
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#74
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Target Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 6-June 05 Member No.: 7,432 |
[QUOTE] I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but I just had to say something on this. There is a reasonable means of creating a lightsabre-like effect using MitS. It's basically a physical combat spell that's "restricted in range" and sustained. True, according to the modifiers a sustained effect inflicts higher Drain, but unlike an instantaneous combat spell, a sustained spell inflicts this Drain once, then the effect can be used on as many targets as you want as long as the effect is sustained. I can concieve of specialized foci just for creating this effect. I picked up the game recently after a long time. There's been a lot of changes, a lot of which I like, though I did find that oddities section in MitS…disappointing. So, as a kind of mental masterbation, I'd decided to explore SR's magic through the eyes of the psychic and prophet. That little effect I described above works equally well with both. For the psychic it would be more like the hypertech of the lightsabre. For the prophet it would be a little like Gabriel's sword, especially if the fetish or focus were a large weapon and the effect were changed to an elemental manipulation, e.g. fire. BTW, will Essence still be the same in SR4? I see that in SR3, the only human racial modifier is faster acquisition of Karma Pool. I proposed to a friend that the house rules should allow humans to possess an Essence of 9, which is in keeping with the net racial modifiers applied to the rest of metahumanity, four points. My rationalization? That baseline humans are less optimized than the rest of their metahuman cousins. They're more flexible in how they can be modified. They're more capable in the key technology of SR than the paradigmatically anachronistic races. Implant technology. Of course, if the racial modifiers have changed in SR4… The point is that the cost of each race, in my opinion, was more a function of rarity than game mechanics. The creators behind SR state their bias against class-based restrictions. Hopefully, I can interpret this as "equal for all" when it concerns player characters. This has not been the case with humans and, to a lesser extent, magic. |
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Jun 7 2005, 02:16 AM
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#75
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
funk, you know that thing you do, where you get so wrapped up in a single side of a given argument that the kernel of things you're right about get so gummed up with you being an asshat that no one bothers actually arguing with you, because you'll just respond with vitriol instead of logic?
you're doing it again. |
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