 Looking Professional, Serious fashion |
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 Jun 15 2005, 01:15 AM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 73 Joined: 4-June 05 Member No.: 7,426  |
the dikote might if nothing else
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Jun 15 2005, 03:04 AM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but that really seems like a boneheaded interpretation that lacks any kind of common sense. It doesn't state at all that MADs detect any kind of weapon. What it says is that there are automated systems in existence and that these systems use Rating(Concealability). It incidentally gives MADs as an example of such systems, and says that they typically come in a range of ratings. Your interpretation is like saying that a geiger counter designed to detect nukes can detect any type of weapon with a Rating(Concealability) test, even if it isn't radioactive. Please. Common sense tells you that it doesn't work that way, and the same goes for MADs. If you want do read the passage that way, you go right ahead. But the application of common sense tells you that it's bullsh*t. My group will go with the common sense approach. (Now, there ARE automated systems that can detect these weapons -- hard object detectors using x-rays, etc for example, but you don't run into too many of those scanning biological forms) |
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Jun 15 2005, 03:47 AM
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#53
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Vaevictis, you'll get used to it on DS. Welcome to the fun of SR (nothing makese sense).
Whether Doc's actually in favor of those rules or not, he is correct. Per the rules, they can pick up anything, magnetic or not. You don't have to like the rules. You're free to change them if they're so goddamn stupid they make your brain hurt (you wouldn't be the first to go through this), but that is what the canon rules are. |
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Jun 15 2005, 04:02 AM
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#54
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
It makes sense, if you can leave behind any preconceived notion or prior idea about how something should work and accept that that's how things work in the SR world.
Just because you have been living in a decimal world doesn't mean that there can't be a binary world. |
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Jun 15 2005, 04:14 AM
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#55
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Yeah, SR makes lots of sense if you assume that the laws of physics have been repealed in the world of Shadowrun. You see, the writers never made mistakes or wrote stupid things— oh no, they intended to create a world fully divorced from our reality in every way imaginable.
This, of course, is a good thing, if you can leave behind any preconceived notion or prior idea about how something should be good and accept that that's how things are good in the SR world. |
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Jun 15 2005, 04:40 AM
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#56
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Actually, you'd have no problems if you assume that the laws of physics in SR work the way the authors wrote. You see whether the authors made any mistakes or not, what they wrote is canon. Unless you go work for Fanpro and write us Physics in the Shadows, the only thing you can do is house rule the rules you find "stupid". |
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Jun 15 2005, 07:23 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
shrug, you read it your way, I'll read it mine... at least until I see a rules clarification from an authoritative source. Even if you disagree with me on that, well, just take a look at the ceramic components option: "By making the gun mostly or entirely out of nonmetallic parts, the gunsmith can reduce the risk of detection by magnetic systems." (cc.74)
After reading that, it's obvious that MADs respond to the metal in weapons, and it is not the presence of ceramics that fools them but the absence of metals. The fact that ceramics are used is incidental; they just happen to be convenient replacements for metal because they are capable of fooling MADs and handling the stresses required in a firearm. But whatever. Read it how you want. For what it's worth, many (if not most) stones are ceramics by modern definition (an example would be obsidian), so if you want to be a rules-lawyer, we can argue that as well. I'm not certain, but I think that diamonds qualify as a ceramic as well. So, I've got a dikoted obsidian tomahawk, mister rules lawyer. It's ceramic. Your witness. |
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Jun 15 2005, 07:57 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Winston Salem, NC Member No.: 1,359 |
I nominate Cray74 to write the Physics in the Shadows supplement. I will take two copies, please. One to read, and one to beat some of my idiot players over the head with (especially after I dikote it...oh wait, its paper...nevermind).
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Jun 15 2005, 08:17 PM
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#59
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
There has been a breakthrough on the making of a strand of spider silk in the lab. They could never get it to strand like a spider could until they got it to just the right temperature IIRC. Here is an article that discusses using plants as well: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...dermammals.html |
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Jun 16 2005, 07:42 AM
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#60
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Everything can be dikoted. ;) |
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Jun 16 2005, 09:34 AM
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#61
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Ceramic components option only applies to firearms. There is no melee weapon creation rules, your dikoted obsidian tomahawk does not exist as obsidian tomahawk does not appear on the list of melee weapons or improvised melee weapons. You GM may house rule that your weapon exist in his game world but it certainly does not in canon. Furthermore even if your weapon is ceramic, without melee weapon creation rules defining what ceramic components do in a melee weapon, you might have a ceramic melee weapon but it does not function any different from a non-ceramic melee weapon. Your witness. |
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Jun 16 2005, 10:52 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 30-September 04 Member No.: 6,715 |
Even Ally Spirits? |
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Jun 16 2005, 11:03 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
I'm considering whether to create an armored clothing generator thing or not.
As it is, between the SR3 and CC, we have alot of armor to pick and choose from. However, depending on the individual characters QUI and STR to some part, I sometimes want to have more fluent armor distribution. As in, if I look for a suit that gives 4/4, I don't want to bother with finding that specific armor, I'd rather have a table that shows me that Impact armor above 2 requires semi obvious plating, how it affects availability and price etc. I'll try to whip something up later this afternoon. Based on the existing armors in SR3 and CC, I'll stick to the canon parameters, but open up for a wider range of different outfits. |
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Jun 16 2005, 12:23 PM
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#64
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Why not? With the proper magical ritual, some million :nuyen: (for the research) and some weird magical-science theory it may be possible. But who wants it and for what reason? ;) Oh, forgot the weird half-insane GM who allows such a mess. :D |
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Jun 16 2005, 02:43 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
sota63.99: "Magnetic anomoly detectors detect metallic substances." In the absense of metallic substances, MADs do not work. Canon, yes?
cc.8: "The blade of an authentic tomahawk is still chiseled from stone." Not metal. Canon. The only question at this point is -- what is the haft made from? Well, I suppose this isn't canon, but it's an authentic tomahawk, so it's made of wood, and the blade is bound to it with leather strips. Not metal. Can't be detected by a MAD. |
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Jun 16 2005, 02:59 PM
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#66
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Nope. "Magnetic anomaly detectors detect metallic substances." does not mean they don't detect non-metallic substances (in SR3), it just means they do detect metallic ones. And the rules are quite clear about even equipment which shouldn't have any metal in them being detected by MADs. Like, I assume, the majority of DSers, I agree with you that the rules don't make sense, but them's the rules. Change them if you will, I know I would if it ever came to that. |
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Jun 16 2005, 03:09 PM
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#67
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
SR3 p. 293, MADS: "Magnetic Anomoly Detectors are used to detect weapons and concentrations of metal." Note that it seperates the two. They detect weapons AND concentrations of metal, not just metal. |
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Jun 16 2005, 03:28 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Not entirely correct. There are items listed which are non-ceramic, and completely undetectable by MAD sensors. SA Puzzler and WW Infiltrator: Cannon Companion pages 16 and 19 respectively. Also, Hi-C plastic rounds, page 38. polyresins and densiplast. In short, what the rule says in SR3 is accurate when using only the core book -- there are no weapons I can see that don't contain metal. When you go into other core books, that is no longer accurate. The Firearms creation rules give a way to make guns which are undetectable by MADs -- but the rules include several items which are also undetectable, and do not use ceramic components. While it does not list undetectable by MADs on the melee items which it is reasonable to believe it would apply, I would say that ruling that to be so makes more sense then not. Beyond that, I would consider things like vision modifications. Do you let them pick up things which are on totally different spectrums? For instance, thermographics detecting the heat generated in a UV laser? |
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Jun 16 2005, 03:41 PM
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#69
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes, entirely correct.
Yes, those that have the Ceramic Components firearm creation option, which is a specific set of rules for a specific type of modification to a weapon. Tomahawks are not listed as having that type of modification, nor does it mention any invibility to MAD scanners which -- as previously quoted -- detect both weapons and concentrations of metal (unless specifically stated otherwise, such as with the weapons you cited). There just happens to be a special rule that allows some weapons to be made invisible, and that rule has the "Ceramic Components" title to it. |
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Jun 16 2005, 05:56 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
"By making the gun mostly or entirely out of nonmetallic parts, the gunsmith can reduce the risk of detection by magnetic systems..." (cc.74)
"... composed entirely of polyresin and cannot be detected by magnetic anomaly detectors (MADs)." (cc.16) "Magnetic Anomaly Detectors are used to detect weapons and concentrations of metal..." (sr3.293) "Magnetic anomaly detectors detect metallic substances. In order to detect a weapon or other metal item..." (sota63.99) Any kind of common sense interpretation of these passages would support the understanding that MADs detect only metallic weapons. The problem isn't in the rules in this case, it's in the language used to describe the rules which permit multiple interpretations. The phrase "Magnetic Anomaly Detectors are used to detect weapons and concentrations of metals" can clearly be interpreted two ways -- that it detects weapons independently of concentrations of metals or that it detects weapons BECAUSE of the concentrations of metal in them. When you include the "magnetic anomaly detectors", a reasonable person would say, "Ah hah! They clearly meant the second, not the first." "In order to detect a weapon or other metal item..." further reinforces this interpretation. They use "weapon or OTHER metal item", which clearly suggests that the weapon is understood to ALSO be a metal item. On cc.74, we further see the authors reinforcing the notion that it is the METAL that MADs detect, not the weapons -- otherwise, reducing the metal content to zero would NOT prevent the system from detecting the weapon. You say that the rules are quite clear that MADs detect non-metallic items, but I have yet to see any passages that CLEARLY indicate -- without contradiction -- that they do. A common sense reading of the above passages would lead the reader to conclude that MADs cannot detect non-metallic weapons. Read it the other way if you want, that's your prerogative. Me, I'll stick to the common sense way. |
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Jun 16 2005, 06:02 PM
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#71
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I can't believe you had to spell this out in such detail. Why did it matter?
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Jun 16 2005, 06:04 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
I can't tell you. The behavior is compulsive. I just can't help it. When someone tells me I'm wrong, and I truly believe I'm right.. it takes an extreme effort for me to stfu ;) |
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Jun 16 2005, 06:20 PM
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#73
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
No problem. Sometimes I think people are purposefully obtuse to get a rise out of others.
Being literal about rules is one thing, taking it to an extreme is another. ;) |
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Jun 16 2005, 07:21 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Further, just got a response from a Fan Pro guy (Rob Boyle, look on the FAQs/Errata page):
"By definition, MADs detect ferrous metals. It's not going to pick up a ceramic knife, for example ... but other search techniques/scans might." FWIW. Does that count as canon? |
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Jun 16 2005, 07:22 PM
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#75
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Yeah, he is the line developer. You know, the guy responsible for everything. :) |
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