 to all anti SR4, please leave us alone |
  |
 Jun 6 2005, 06:09 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Paris, France Member No.: 6,074  |
when i read the thread "please delay SR4 for a year" i think to myself : another "We are SR hardcore geeks and didnt like the idea of major changes in the game we play 10h/day (the others 14 hours left, we post on dumpshock :D ) and so always complain about something we dont know anything about except 20 small lines in a FAQ" thread!
SR3 has a core system which is bugged (non linear probability when TN increased which results in a lot of nonsense when skill, attribute or TN bigger than 6 (which is very frequent) ) if you dont believe me check the statistics table...but that s not my point the idea in SR4 is to change the system to be easier, with streamlined gameplay and an update of technologies but to keep the background and spirit of SR. if this idea of a new edition which change deeply the rules system is unbearable for you, stay in SR3 and stop annoying the many people who want to see it and believe that Fanpro will not killed his universe by releasing a bad or not tested edition !!! and stop saying stupid things like "i dont like SR4" (we know nearly nothing about it so we can t judge it) I think administrators have to create a section of the forum dedicated to all of you so you can spit on SR4 with others antiSR4 and stop harassing the others with always the same bullshit :grr: |
 |
 
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 06:10 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 4-June 05 Member No.: 7,427 |
OMG. Duck, INCOMING!!! :noflame: :noflame: :noflame:
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 06:13 PM
Post
#3
|
|||
|
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2005, 06:13 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
You are so wrong. SR3 is perfect, you don't understand how much you need floating TN, there is no problem in statistic from TN 5 to 6 or from TN 6 to 7, and the rules are not complex at all.
(Kidding :D ) |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 06:16 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
No one said SR3 is perfect. But there are ways to fix the issue you speak of. Changing it to a fixed TN just makes new issues no one is going to be prepared to deal with. (Like making some tasks flat out impossible because you don't have enough dice leftover after modifiers.)
SR2 to SR3 was a vast improvement. SR3 to SR4 isn't even a path. They are essentially taking 15 years of work and ideas and tossing it out the window. But like any NEW system, SR4 is going to have its own bugs and problems. It is not a continued refinement of a tried and true system, but a whole new system from the ground up. Do we all not remember SR1? |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 06:22 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 4-June 05 Member No.: 7,427 |
Interestingly I've stopped watching trailers. They can be misleading, especially when they pack all the funny parts from 90 minutes of film into one 2 minute blurb. Or some marketing geek decided to edit and audio the trailer to target a different potential customer than me, even though the film was something that would appeal to me. That and I find many trailers are such spoilers now.
I don't even listen to the reviews much, they seem more and more to be propaganda puppets. Instead I wait for word of mouth from real people that have seen the film. People I can fully and freely converse with. But I'm leaving this thread now because I left my flame-retardant undies in my other pants. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 06:23 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Was the change from SR1 to SR2 nescessary or not? Couldn't, rather than doing a near-complete overhaul, SR1 just be patched and fixed ina more gentle way to please the SR1 fan crowd?
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 06:35 PM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 392 Joined: 18-October 04 From: Tujunga, CA Member No.: 6,768 |
LOL, that was great. My final word on SR4. The more I hear other peoples point of veiw the worse things look. I will no longer read anything about SR4 or talk about it until it is out. Then I will go and sit in my local game store and skim through the book. If I like it, I will buy and run a game using it. If the game goes well. I will play SR4 and start saving up for all the books that will come. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2005, 06:51 PM
Post
#9
|
|||
|
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
SR1 wasn't deleted in favor of SR2. It was refined and reworked to be more elegant. The changes were made within the existing system. Don't try to compare SR1 to 2 with SR3 to 4. Were talking about refining a system versus starting over with a whole new one. They made SR better within the existing unique rule system with SR1-3. Sr4 looks to start over... and as with ANY brand new systems it will require patches and expansions to become fully functional. I haven't played all the RPG's out there, but so far they tend to get better as they get refined. I have yet to see one that scraps itself and everything it learned, in favor of a whole new ruleset. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2005, 07:01 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
I'm not so much anti-SR4 as anti-I have no idea what they're doing with it.
If the U.S. Government released only small bits of information about various major undertakings it was committed to, up to the point that it looked like the SR4 FAQ's, this would be a disaster. Then again, with so much we don't know... Polirants aside, it could very well be they're giving out all the wrong information. That's fine. It could also be that what has been presented thusfar is the best they have - And it gets downhill from there. It could also be, as such things are, that things simply haven't been released on both ends of the spectrum. What I do know is this - IF there are any problems, its virtually impossible to fix them now. Minor ones, maybe - But major "Oh crap, such and such is insane" errors are impossible to repair From what HAS been released, SR4 is a completely different game than SR3. It is not a revision, it is a remake. (A task may take four "hits" to be a success.) It may fix a few target number variances when it comes to harder tasks, but if worst comes to worst you can make a house-rule to fix that for SR3. Probably poor, on-the-spot example: "When you have a skill/attribute over your normal racial limit (so body 12 for trolls, but 6 for human), you may trade in one die for -1 TN up until you have lowered it to your base." EX: I have firearms nine and I'm human. I can drop my TN by up to 3 by sacrificing up to 3 dice. That balances it out. A little. Its also probably broken somewhere. So if you expect the skeptical to leave you alone, you're sadly in dream-land. We voice our opinions on what we see hoping someone reads and says "...We can fix this before print. Lets go." |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 07:04 PM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
when i read the thread "To all anti SR4, please leave us alone" i think to myself : another "person who can't understand why not everyone sees the world as he does, and doesn't seem totally clear what the 'Shadowrun 4' section is for :D ) and so always complain about something he doesnt agree with because its inconvenient for him to have to scroll down" thread!
the reality of SR4 is a system that has thrown away fifteen years of functional mechanics for something even the playtesters often dont like. if this idea of people talking about what they dont like about this in the appropriate forum is unbearable for you, stop reading and replying to those posts and stop annoying the many people who have good reason for being wary about this change !!! and stop saying stupid things like "if you don't like it dont buy it" (thats a bad argument and we all know it) I think administrators have to create a section of the forum dedicated to all of you so you can entertain your pipe dreams together and stop harassing the others with always the same bullshit :mad: |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 07:06 PM
Post
#12
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 392 Joined: 18-October 04 From: Tujunga, CA Member No.: 6,768 |
Do you live in America? What makes you think we know 2% of the major undertakings of our government. LOL ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2005, 07:06 PM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Theres a huge difference between Spititng on SR4 and questioning the need. Or cirtisizing the faqs. None of us have spit on SR4 - in fact there has been a great deal of discussion concerning the rules that we do know about - which is I believe the devs intent. I'd suggest that you just skim over the messages that you don't think you'll like. I think that some of you are taking this a little too personally. It's ok to take it a little personally, but to get so riled up that you leave the boards, or make apost like this - you need to CHILL. Oh, and thanks SR4-WTF - your handle and your DUck and Cover post made me laugh. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2005, 07:08 PM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
*Lives in grand old New York.* I don't trust my government as far as I could throw Dick Cheney. Then again, with the adreneline I'd get from being able to beat one of them upside the head for their ignorance...
I will avoid political discourse, as it could get, well, ugly. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 07:10 PM
Post
#15
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 392 Joined: 18-October 04 From: Tujunga, CA Member No.: 6,768 |
Good idea, I tender to get myself in trouble with that type of thing as well. Nice to see some one like minded. :) You know, I still have friends who play 2nd edition AD&D. LOL. They have all the books and everything. My friend does not like to play a system until they are done with it, he says, that way you know all the books are out. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2005, 07:17 PM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
Interesting notion. And very glad to see like-minded people. I bet many of the DS people are (considering what kind of world SR represents)
Though I personally love the idea of not playing a system until its finished, I also love what Fanpro has done with SR3 - They've brought it to life. That's why SR4 just boggles me. Industry predictions are great, but they predicted that 1930 would be an awesome, awesome fiscal year. They also are predicated (I would assume, anyhow, so as usual I could be wrong.) on the notion that another run of SR3 with revised rules wouldn't sell to new players. I just think SR3Revised would be better than SR4NewGame. Especially with such a tight line for release (August; as discussed in another forum) and other frightening things. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 07:38 PM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
I and I am sure many others are not anti-SR4, we are anti-the SR4 that we have been told about in the FAQs and elsewhere.
I don't recall anyone saying that SR3 is perfect, because it isn't! What gets my goat is the decision to make a whole new rules-set from scratch, in an inadequate time frame, having never designed a game-system before! If anyone thinks this is a receipe for making an excellent new rules system, you may be right; but I wouldn't put money on it! |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 07:44 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 392 Joined: 18-October 04 From: Tujunga, CA Member No.: 6,768 |
After what white-wolf did to the Werewolf and Vampire game, nothing shocks me. ;)
|
|
|
|
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 6 2005, 08:53 PM
Post
#19
|
||||||
|
Guests |
Oh, this is hilarious. First of all, I have yet to see in the two and a half months and reading every thread in this forum anyone come out and say "I hate SR4." It's a strawman argument, and it shows. No one's said it. If they did, why the fuck would they post here? It'd be the intellectual equivalent of punching themselves in the nuts over and over again. Ellery summed up most of the major concerns some people have in that thread which so offended you that you had to go and make this one.
You have to also consider how many of the people you may call "Anti-SR4" were ecstatic about it when it was first announced. I was giddy as hell that they would finally fix the one area that I don't particularly like--rigging--and merging it and decking together. But as more information came out, you can go through the old threads and see the day when those of us who were delighted at the idea of SR4--fucking elated beyond reason--and were defending it with a great deal more rationality and common sense than those who seem to delight in attacking people who are "anti-SR4" and bandying about strawman ideas such as that there are "SR4 haters" roaming the forum causing trouble. Our opinions changed literally overnight, and we became skeptical and hesitant. We asked for clarifications and offered up ideas for consideration--not based on assumptions, but based on what we felt might be lacking in perspective because we don't know anymore than any other DSer who is in the loop (be they playtester, freelancer, dev, or editor). I still have a great deal of hope for SR4 because I don't want it to suck. I don't want it to become something that alienates existing players, and something which doesn't appeal to non-SR players. I don't like the idea that some people have mentioned that mechanics aren't important, because to me they are the most important part of the game. They were in SR1, SR2, and SR3. Some of us, namely Critias and myself, particularly like some of the dice pools. We've been using CP since SR2, and remember it's SR1 equivalents. We've become accustomed to using CP and using it effectively. Another part of my concern is that FAQs are poorly written. Things seemed to be changing very quickly once SR4 FAQ 3 came out, and in response to a perfectly valid question, a question which could have been answered any number of ways, we've been treated to this instead.
Then we get the stupendous FAQ 5 attack on SR1-3 magic without actually saying anything about SR1-3 magic. It's all guess work, comments which I have to attribute to personal opinion on the parts of freelancers/playtesters because they can't give official positions--either because they don't make them, or because they are prevented under penality of litigation from saying so. I look at the FAQs, the content of the FAQs, and I consider that this is the official voice of Fanpro writing statements which aren't well-written. Then I read the GTM preview, and again it was poorly-written. I have become very weary of how well-written the materials could be if this is acceptable material to publish as an official position, be it incomplete or not. I'm skeptical about everything. Nothing I have said here was made as an assumption. All I know about SR4 are in those five FAQs and the GTM preview. What else I know is that few major rules have been designed and implemented since Fanpro took over. I know that SR has only had one core mechanic, and it isn't the one in SR4. Everything else I've said has been under the auspices of, "since your're doing X, have you considered Y?" There are probably hundreds of playtesters for SR4 (there were 89 just for MitS). However, I can't, I won't, assume that they have mentioned everything that I have thought. No one seemed too offended in the early days of this forum when there were threads explicitly designed to offer nothing but unsolicited advice and ideas about SR4--ideas made when we knew less than we do now. But going back to this whole idea of the rabid "anti-SR4" crowd, I am going to have to stand with anyone you're attacking because this is bullshit. They should have a voice just like any other. No one ever said that you have to be giddy about SR4. If that was true, the forum would have been shut down on March 15 when people with less information than we have now were attacking the very idea that SR needed a fourth edition. Moreover, in many cases they've earned their say because they've played this game for years, bought hundreds of dollars worth of sourcebooks, and some of them feel like Fanpro not only doesn't care about them, but doesn't want them around. That's a harsh concern. I'd like to think that no company would do something that stupid, but I know better. I've read all about people's opinions of what Fanpro is doing with SR4, and they're all opinions. I see no reason why those opinions shouldn't be challenged. Why decisions made by Fanpro shouldn't be questioned. Just because they are playtesters, they don't get to have a say from a player/GM's POV about what they know about or might speculate about? A lot of what goes on here is speculation from ALL sides. For some reason, people felt the need to suddenly become a great deal more hostile to each other. I could blame that squarely on Patrick Goodman, but I won't because I can't. I can say that I think he contributed to it, and didn't help anything when he pouted about and stormed out of the forums, opened a new thread on the Shadowrun forum, and then for some unknown reason felt compelled to personally attack me and my gaming community based on zero information in said thread. I don't understand the point of insulting people. It's stupid. Unfortunately, on the internet it's really easy as well. This is the crux of the whole situation, that someone wants "us" to leave because we don't agree with him. Fuck that. I'm going to say whatever I want because I can. I'm buying the SR4 book. I might even rip off the Hacking rules. However, just because I will never use the base dice mechanic doesn't mean that my opinions about it or anything else are so beneath yours that I should shut up, or that you or anyone else should tell me to shut up. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jun 6 2005, 09:36 PM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043 |
But it's probably best not to make assumptions and to just leave that kind of discussion out on DSF. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2005, 09:45 PM
Post
#21
|
|||
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
That's the forum header/intro/descriptor. It says discuss. It doesn't say "Praise SR4." It doesn't say "Click here, if you're so puppy-dog excited about a new edition you just wet yourself." It doesn't say "Only post here if you have positive assumptions to make about SR4." It doesn't say "SR4 lovers, unite!" It doesn't even say "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." If your panties are so in a wad that people are worried about the direction their favorite RPG is headed in, then maybe you need to grow a little thicker skin. Not everyone agrees on everything -- especially on the internet -- and that's just the way life is. You might want the whole world to like the things you like, you might want the whole internet to be one giant perpetual circle jerk, you might want everyone to always agree on everything, fluffy bunnies to hop around and be your friend, and your poop to smell like strawberries: fine, go on wanting that. But don't be all "grr, leave me alone!" to the big, mean, world when it doesn't do what you want. Or your complaining is remarkable hypocritical, seeing as how we're not allowed to bitch a little about things we don't like. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2005, 09:48 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 392 Joined: 18-October 04 From: Tujunga, CA Member No.: 6,768 |
You know what I like about threads, people really can and do say what they want with out fear of getting there ass beat. :)
In real life, some one raises there voice to me and I am more likly to punch them in the gut than reply. :) Does any one think they might one day bring back T'Skrangs, Obsidamen, or Windlings? Is that to off topic? LOL |
|
|
|
|
Jun 6 2005, 09:51 PM
Post
#23
|
|||
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Well, aren't you just Johnny Hardcore? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 6 2005, 09:53 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
OK, can I use that name for my next character if I give you credit?
|
|
|
|
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 6 2005, 10:04 PM
Post
#25
|
|
Guests |
You don't already have a Johnny Hardcore?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 26th March 2026 - 01:45 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.