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ankh-le-fixer
when i read the thread "please delay SR4 for a year" i think to myself : another "We are SR hardcore geeks and didnt like the idea of major changes in the game we play 10h/day (the others 14 hours left, we post on dumpshock biggrin.gif ) and so always complain about something we dont know anything about except 20 small lines in a FAQ" thread!

SR3 has a core system which is bugged (non linear probability when TN increased which results in a lot of nonsense when skill, attribute or TN bigger than 6 (which is very frequent) ) if you dont believe me check the statistics table...but that s not my point

the idea in SR4 is to change the system to be easier, with streamlined gameplay and an update of technologies but to keep the background and spirit of SR. if this idea of a new edition which change deeply the rules system is unbearable for you, stay in SR3 and stop annoying the many people who want to see it and believe that Fanpro will not killed his universe by releasing a bad or not tested edition !!!

and stop saying stupid things like "i dont like SR4" (we know nearly nothing about it so we can t judge it)

I think administrators have to create a section of the forum dedicated to all of you so you can spit on SR4 with others antiSR4 and stop harassing the others with always the same bullshit mad.gif
SR4-WTF?
OMG. Duck, INCOMING!!! extinguish.gif extinguish.gif extinguish.gif
Shadow
QUOTE
I am getting a little bit tired of my arguments being discounted for the following reasons...


1. It's a new edition and there will always be people who hate a new edition just because it is change.


> I would like to point out that when the SR4 announcement was first made I was hugely excited! Why? Because the change from 2 to 3 was a vast improvement. I was looking forward to the same kind of refinement. Fanpro should be calling this Shadowrun: 2070. Because it is not a 4th edition, it is a 1st edition.


2. I am flying off the handle and I don't know what I am talking about because I have not seen the complete rules.

>I have chosen to not see a number of Films based entirely on the preview. Thats what a preview is for, it is to get you interested in the product. So far the SR4 previews have been a complete disaster. Like the movie Titanic, I don't have to see it to know I won't like it.


I understand completely Fanpro's decision, and I understand why they made it, I simply disagree with there assessment that the SR3 rules had to be completely scrapped in order to bring in new fans.

ADD&D was transformed into D&D 3 without scrapping the entire system. They simply stripped it back to the basics and reworked it. Fanpro could have done the same thing. Called it SR4 and released a great product.

If they had done that though they would still be working on a FASA product and not a wholly original Fanpro product.
Taki
You are so wrong. SR3 is perfect, you don't understand how much you need floating TN, there is no problem in statistic from TN 5 to 6 or from TN 6 to 7, and the rules are not complex at all.

(Kidding biggrin.gif )
Shadow
No one said SR3 is perfect. But there are ways to fix the issue you speak of. Changing it to a fixed TN just makes new issues no one is going to be prepared to deal with. (Like making some tasks flat out impossible because you don't have enough dice leftover after modifiers.)

SR2 to SR3 was a vast improvement. SR3 to SR4 isn't even a path. They are essentially taking 15 years of work and ideas and tossing it out the window.

But like any NEW system, SR4 is going to have its own bugs and problems. It is not a continued refinement of a tried and true system, but a whole new system from the ground up.

Do we all not remember SR1?
SR4-WTF?
Interestingly I've stopped watching trailers. They can be misleading, especially when they pack all the funny parts from 90 minutes of film into one 2 minute blurb. Or some marketing geek decided to edit and audio the trailer to target a different potential customer than me, even though the film was something that would appeal to me. That and I find many trailers are such spoilers now.

I don't even listen to the reviews much, they seem more and more to be propaganda puppets. Instead I wait for word of mouth from real people that have seen the film. People I can fully and freely converse with.

But I'm leaving this thread now because I left my flame-retardant undies in my other pants.
hermit
Was the change from SR1 to SR2 nescessary or not? Couldn't, rather than doing a near-complete overhaul, SR1 just be patched and fixed ina more gentle way to please the SR1 fan crowd?
GaiasWrath8
QUOTE (SR4-WTF?)
OMG. Duck, INCOMING!!! extinguish.gif extinguish.gif extinguish.gif

LOL, that was great.

My final word on SR4. The more I hear other peoples point of veiw the worse things look. I will no longer read anything about SR4 or talk about it until it is out. Then I will go and sit in my local game store and skim through the book. If I like it, I will buy and run a game using it. If the game goes well. I will play SR4 and start saving up for all the books that will come.
Shadow
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 6 2005, 10:23 AM)
Was the change from SR1 to SR2 nescessary or not? Couldn't, rather than doing a near-complete overhaul, SR1 just be patched and fixed ina more gentle way to please the SR1 fan crowd?

SR1 wasn't deleted in favor of SR2.

It was refined and reworked to be more elegant. The changes were made within the existing system. Don't try to compare SR1 to 2 with SR3 to 4. Were talking about refining a system versus starting over with a whole new one.

They made SR better within the existing unique rule system with SR1-3. Sr4 looks to start over... and as with ANY brand new systems it will require patches and expansions to become fully functional. I haven't played all the RPG's out there, but so far they tend to get better as they get refined. I have yet to see one that scraps itself and everything it learned, in favor of a whole new ruleset.
frostPDP
I'm not so much anti-SR4 as anti-I have no idea what they're doing with it.

If the U.S. Government released only small bits of information about various major undertakings it was committed to, up to the point that it looked like the SR4 FAQ's, this would be a disaster. Then again, with so much we don't know...

Polirants aside, it could very well be they're giving out all the wrong information. That's fine. It could also be that what has been presented thusfar is the best they have - And it gets downhill from there. It could also be, as such things are, that things simply haven't been released on both ends of the spectrum.

What I do know is this - IF there are any problems, its virtually impossible to fix them now. Minor ones, maybe - But major "Oh crap, such and such is insane" errors are impossible to repair

From what HAS been released, SR4 is a completely different game than SR3. It is not a revision, it is a remake. (A task may take four "hits" to be a success.) It may fix a few target number variances when it comes to harder tasks, but if worst comes to worst you can make a house-rule to fix that for SR3.

Probably poor, on-the-spot example: "When you have a skill/attribute over your normal racial limit (so body 12 for trolls, but 6 for human), you may trade in one die for -1 TN up until you have lowered it to your base." EX: I have firearms nine and I'm human. I can drop my TN by up to 3 by sacrificing up to 3 dice.

That balances it out. A little. Its also probably broken somewhere.

So if you expect the skeptical to leave you alone, you're sadly in dream-land. We voice our opinions on what we see hoping someone reads and says "...We can fix this before print. Lets go."
nezumi
when i read the thread "To all anti SR4, please leave us alone" i think to myself : another "person who can't understand why not everyone sees the world as he does, and doesn't seem totally clear what the 'Shadowrun 4' section is for biggrin.gif ) and so always complain about something he doesnt agree with because its inconvenient for him to have to scroll down" thread!

the reality of SR4 is a system that has thrown away fifteen years of functional mechanics for something even the playtesters often dont like. if this idea of people talking about what they dont like about this in the appropriate forum is unbearable for you, stop reading and replying to those posts and stop annoying the many people who have good reason for being wary about this change !!!

and stop saying stupid things like "if you don't like it dont buy it" (thats a bad argument and we all know it)

I think administrators have to create a section of the forum dedicated to all of you so you can entertain your pipe dreams together and stop harassing the others with always the same bullshit mad.gif
GaiasWrath8
QUOTE (frostPDP)
If the U.S. Government released only small bits of information about various major undertakings it was committed to, up to the point that it looked like the SR4 FAQ's, this would be a disaster.

Do you live in America? What makes you think we know 2% of the major undertakings of our government. LOL

wink.gif
Eldritch
QUOTE (ankh-le-fixer)
when i read the thread "please delay SR4 for a year" i think to myself : another "We are SR hardcore geeks and didnt like the idea of major changes in the game we play 10h/day (the others 14 hours left, we post on dumpshock biggrin.gif ) and so always complain about something we dont know anything about except 20 small lines in a FAQ" thread!

SR3 has a core system which is bugged (non linear probability when TN increased which results in a lot of nonsense when skill, attribute or TN bigger than 6 (which is very frequent) ) if you dont believe me check the statistics table...but that s not my point

the idea in SR4 is to change the system to be easier, with streamlined gameplay and an update of technologies but to keep the background and spirit of SR. if this idea of a new edition which change deeply the rules system is unbearable for you, stay in SR3 and stop annoying the many people who want to see it and believe that Fanpro will not killed his universe by releasing a bad or not tested edition !!!

and stop saying stupid things like "i dont like SR4" (we know nearly nothing about it so we can t judge it)

I think administrators have to create a section of the forum dedicated to all of you so you can spit on SR4 with others antiSR4 and stop harassing the others with always the same bullshit mad.gif

Theres a huge difference between Spititng on SR4 and questioning the need. Or cirtisizing the faqs.

None of us have spit on SR4 - in fact there has been a great deal of discussion concerning the rules that we do know about - which is I believe the devs intent. I'd suggest that you just skim over the messages that you don't think you'll like.


I think that some of you are taking this a little too personally. It's ok to take it a little personally, but to get so riled up that you leave the boards, or make apost like this - you need to CHILL.

Oh, and thanks SR4-WTF - your handle and your DUck and Cover post made me laugh. smile.gif

frostPDP
*Lives in grand old New York.* I don't trust my government as far as I could throw Dick Cheney. Then again, with the adreneline I'd get from being able to beat one of them upside the head for their ignorance...

I will avoid political discourse, as it could get, well, ugly.
GaiasWrath8
QUOTE (frostPDP @ Jun 6 2005, 02:08 PM)
*Lives in grand old New York.*  I don't trust my government as far as I could throw Dick Cheney.  Then again, with the adreneline I'd get from being able to beat one of them upside the head for their ignorance...

I will avoid political discourse, as it could get, well, ugly.

Good idea, I tender to get myself in trouble with that type of thing as well. Nice to see some one like minded. smile.gif

You know, I still have friends who play 2nd edition AD&D. LOL. They have all the books and everything. My friend does not like to play a system until they are done with it, he says, that way you know all the books are out. smile.gif
frostPDP
Interesting notion. And very glad to see like-minded people. I bet many of the DS people are (considering what kind of world SR represents)

Though I personally love the idea of not playing a system until its finished, I also love what Fanpro has done with SR3 - They've brought it to life.

That's why SR4 just boggles me. Industry predictions are great, but they predicted that 1930 would be an awesome, awesome fiscal year. They also are predicated (I would assume, anyhow, so as usual I could be wrong.) on the notion that another run of SR3 with revised rules wouldn't sell to new players.

I just think SR3Revised would be better than SR4NewGame. Especially with such a tight line for release (August; as discussed in another forum) and other frightening things.
SirBedevere
I and I am sure many others are not anti-SR4, we are anti-the SR4 that we have been told about in the FAQs and elsewhere.

I don't recall anyone saying that SR3 is perfect, because it isn't! What gets my goat is the decision to make a whole new rules-set from scratch, in an inadequate time frame, having never designed a game-system before!

If anyone thinks this is a receipe for making an excellent new rules system, you may be right; but I wouldn't put money on it!
GaiasWrath8
After what white-wolf did to the Werewolf and Vampire game, nothing shocks me. wink.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (ankh-le-fixer @ Jun 6 2005, 12:09 PM)
when i read the thread "please delay SR4 for a year" i think to myself : another "We are SR hardcore geeks and didnt like the idea of major changes in the game we play 10h/day (the others 14 hours left, we post on dumpshock  biggrin.gif ) and so always complain about something we dont know anything about except 20 small lines in a FAQ" thread!

SR3 has a core system which is bugged (non linear probability when TN increased which results in a lot of nonsense when skill, attribute or TN bigger than 6 (which is very frequent) ) if you dont believe me check the statistics table...but that s not my point

the idea in SR4 is to change the system to be easier, with streamlined gameplay and an update of technologies but to keep the background and spirit of SR. if this idea of a new edition which change deeply the rules system is unbearable for you, stay in SR3 and stop annoying the many people who want to see it and believe that Fanpro will not killed his universe by releasing a bad or not tested edition !!! 

and stop saying stupid things like "i dont like SR4" (we know nearly nothing about it so we can t judge it)

I think administrators have to create a section of the forum dedicated to all of you so you can spit on SR4 with others antiSR4 and stop harassing the others with always the same bullshit mad.gif

Oh, this is hilarious.

First of all, I have yet to see in the two and a half months and reading every thread in this forum anyone come out and say "I hate SR4." It's a strawman argument, and it shows. No one's said it. If they did, why the fuck would they post here? It'd be the intellectual equivalent of punching themselves in the nuts over and over again.

Ellery summed up most of the major concerns some people have in that thread which so offended you that you had to go and make this one.
QUOTE (Ellery)
People worry that losing combat pools will make the game less tactical.  People worry that the fixed TN system will make the system less suitable for playing a range of power levels. People find the magic rules not so bad compared to, say, the rigger rules, and wonder why FanPro is so negative about what many consider to be one SR3's better rulesets.  People are unconvinced that splitting attributes will make the game simpler, especially given all the weird attributes (essence, magic, resonance, edge).  People worry that redoing the rules from scratch is going to result in glitchy, unpolished rules, especially given the time pressures. People wonder whether magic is going to get too inexpensive and everyone will pick up magical talent, given the split it magic attributes and presumed weakening of starting level mages with the variable magic rating.

On the up side, most people seem to be positive about the changes to the Matrix and combining riggers and deckers.  The devil is in the details, of course.

Just look around DS and read.  I happen to share almost all of the concerns above, so I remembered those.


You have to also consider how many of the people you may call "Anti-SR4" were ecstatic about it when it was first announced. I was giddy as hell that they would finally fix the one area that I don't particularly like--rigging--and merging it and decking together. But as more information came out, you can go through the old threads and see the day when those of us who were delighted at the idea of SR4--fucking elated beyond reason--and were defending it with a great deal more rationality and common sense than those who seem to delight in attacking people who are "anti-SR4" and bandying about strawman ideas such as that there are "SR4 haters" roaming the forum causing trouble. Our opinions changed literally overnight, and we became skeptical and hesitant. We asked for clarifications and offered up ideas for consideration--not based on assumptions, but based on what we felt might be lacking in perspective because we don't know anymore than any other DSer who is in the loop (be they playtester, freelancer, dev, or editor).

I still have a great deal of hope for SR4 because I don't want it to suck. I don't want it to become something that alienates existing players, and something which doesn't appeal to non-SR players. I don't like the idea that some people have mentioned that mechanics aren't important, because to me they are the most important part of the game. They were in SR1, SR2, and SR3. Some of us, namely Critias and myself, particularly like some of the dice pools. We've been using CP since SR2, and remember it's SR1 equivalents. We've become accustomed to using CP and using it effectively.

Another part of my concern is that FAQs are poorly written. Things seemed to be changing very quickly once SR4 FAQ 3 came out, and in response to a perfectly valid question, a question which could have been answered any number of ways, we've been treated to this instead.
QUOTE (SR4 FAQ 4)

Q. What havenít you changed in SR4?
A. Many things. There are still 5 basic metatypes to choose from in the basic rules. Contacts remain an integral part of the game. There will be 16 Sample Characters that you can start with. Karma is still used as the experience award. The focus of the game is still on teams of operatives combining skills and resources to accomplish criminal or psuedo-criminal missions. And so on.

Then we get the stupendous FAQ 5 attack on SR1-3 magic without actually saying anything about SR1-3 magic. It's all guess work, comments which I have to attribute to personal opinion on the parts of freelancers/playtesters because they can't give official positions--either because they don't make them, or because they are prevented under penality of litigation from saying so. I look at the FAQs, the content of the FAQs, and I consider that this is the official voice of Fanpro writing statements which aren't well-written. Then I read the GTM preview, and again it was poorly-written. I have become very weary of how well-written the materials could be if this is acceptable material to publish as an official position, be it incomplete or not.

I'm skeptical about everything. Nothing I have said here was made as an assumption. All I know about SR4 are in those five FAQs and the GTM preview. What else I know is that few major rules have been designed and implemented since Fanpro took over. I know that SR has only had one core mechanic, and it isn't the one in SR4. Everything else I've said has been under the auspices of, "since your're doing X, have you considered Y?" There are probably hundreds of playtesters for SR4 (there were 89 just for MitS). However, I can't, I won't, assume that they have mentioned everything that I have thought. No one seemed too offended in the early days of this forum when there were threads explicitly designed to offer nothing but unsolicited advice and ideas about SR4--ideas made when we knew less than we do now.

But going back to this whole idea of the rabid "anti-SR4" crowd, I am going to have to stand with anyone you're attacking because this is bullshit.

They should have a voice just like any other. No one ever said that you have to be giddy about SR4. If that was true, the forum would have been shut down on March 15 when people with less information than we have now were attacking the very idea that SR needed a fourth edition. Moreover, in many cases they've earned their say because they've played this game for years, bought hundreds of dollars worth of sourcebooks, and some of them feel like Fanpro not only doesn't care about them, but doesn't want them around. That's a harsh concern. I'd like to think that no company would do something that stupid, but I know better. I've read all about people's opinions of what Fanpro is doing with SR4, and they're all opinions. I see no reason why those opinions shouldn't be challenged. Why decisions made by Fanpro shouldn't be questioned. Just because they are playtesters, they don't get to have a say from a player/GM's POV about what they know about or might speculate about?

A lot of what goes on here is speculation from ALL sides. For some reason, people felt the need to suddenly become a great deal more hostile to each other. I could blame that squarely on Patrick Goodman, but I won't because I can't. I can say that I think he contributed to it, and didn't help anything when he pouted about and stormed out of the forums, opened a new thread on the Shadowrun forum, and then for some unknown reason felt compelled to personally attack me and my gaming community based on zero information in said thread.

I don't understand the point of insulting people. It's stupid. Unfortunately, on the internet it's really easy as well. This is the crux of the whole situation, that someone wants "us" to leave because we don't agree with him.

Fuck that.

I'm going to say whatever I want because I can. I'm buying the SR4 book. I might even rip off the Hacking rules. However, just because I will never use the base dice mechanic doesn't mean that my opinions about it or anything else are so beneath yours that I should shut up, or that you or anyone else should tell me to shut up.
Garland
QUOTE (frostPDP)
Interesting notion. And very glad to see like-minded people. I bet many of the DS people are (considering what kind of world SR represents)

But it's probably best not to make assumptions and to just leave that kind of discussion out on DSF.
Critias
QUOTE
Shadowrun 4: Discuss the upcoming Shadowrun 4 release, to be released at Gencon Indy 2005.


That's the forum header/intro/descriptor. It says discuss.

It doesn't say "Praise SR4." It doesn't say "Click here, if you're so puppy-dog excited about a new edition you just wet yourself." It doesn't say "Only post here if you have positive assumptions to make about SR4." It doesn't say "SR4 lovers, unite!" It doesn't even say "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

If your panties are so in a wad that people are worried about the direction their favorite RPG is headed in, then maybe you need to grow a little thicker skin. Not everyone agrees on everything -- especially on the internet -- and that's just the way life is.

You might want the whole world to like the things you like, you might want the whole internet to be one giant perpetual circle jerk, you might want everyone to always agree on everything, fluffy bunnies to hop around and be your friend, and your poop to smell like strawberries: fine, go on wanting that.

But don't be all "grr, leave me alone!" to the big, mean, world when it doesn't do what you want. Or your complaining is remarkable hypocritical, seeing as how we're not allowed to bitch a little about things we don't like.
GaiasWrath8
You know what I like about threads, people really can and do say what they want with out fear of getting there ass beat. smile.gif

In real life, some one raises there voice to me and I am more likly to punch them in the gut than reply. smile.gif

Does any one think they might one day bring back T'Skrangs, Obsidamen, or Windlings? Is that to off topic? LOL
Critias
QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)
You know what I like about threads, people really can and do say what they want with out fear of getting there ass beat. smile.gif

In real life, some one raises there voice to me and I am more likly to punch them in the gut than reply. smile.gif

Well, aren't you just Johnny Hardcore?
Jrayjoker
OK, can I use that name for my next character if I give you credit?
Crimsondude 2.0
You don't already have a Johnny Hardcore?
Cynic project
QUOTE (Shadow)
.

ADD&D was transformed into D&D 3 without scrapping the entire system. They simply stripped it back to the basics and reworked it. Fanpro could have done the same thing. Called it SR4 and released a great product.

Save the fact that they added feat,changed all the classes, the rules for leveling,the races you can play, the power of the black hats, the rules for skills, magic, the rules for magical items, the rules for NPCs, the rules for basic tastes, the rules for weapons, the rules for just about everything.

I want to see the rules they kept the same?
Garland
Well, there is the whole d20 vs. TN mechanic that they kept. They're already doing better than SR4 just on that account.
Ol' Scratch
As opposed to Shadowrun's basic "multiple d6's vs. TN" success-based mechanic?
Garland
I mean in terms of things not changed from AD&D/D&D3e.

At least in d20 (as opposed to SR4), that TN can move around based on relative difficulty.
hermit
QUOTE
Does any one think they might one day bring back T'Skrangs, Obsidamen, or Windlings? Is that to off topic? LOL

Hopefully not, and yes. wink.gif

Edited for Ninja clarification. Wow, a fast moving thread this is!
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Garland @ Jun 6 2005, 04:13 PM)
I mean in terms of things not changed from AD&D/D&D3e. 

At least in d20 (as opposed to SR4), that TN can move around based on relative difficulty.

Which really wasn't a part of the original mechanic at all. The only thing that's the same is that you use a 20-sided die, and roll it against a number. In the original mechanic, that number could be anything, and you could be trying to roll higher or lower depending on what you were doing. And a lot of times it wasn't even a d20 anyway.

The change is about on par with the one between SR1-3 and SR4. Both AD&D and D&D3 had a "d20 vs. number" mechanic, and both SR1-3 and SR4 have a "multiple D6 success-based TN" mechanic.
Ellery
d20 just switched from using subtraction for some things to using addition for calculating TN. (THAC0/AC vs. attack bonus/AC). The mechanic is exactly the same. They came up with an easier way to do the math.
SR4-WTF?
Nothing to see here, move along Citizen.

[EDIT]Oops, didn't mean to post in THIS thread. frown.gif [/EDIT]
frostPDP
Garland: I said I'd bet that many people are vaguely skeptical of the government. Pretty fair post, I'd think - And if I'm wrong, then I lose nuyen. Sucks to be me.

But these forums are for discussing SR4. When you post "please leave us alone," you are asking to essentially remove people doing what they are asked to do. Rabid attacks on SR4 are rare if present at all; On the other hand, it seems that attacking the SR4 FAQ's is a fun passtime.

I enjoy it primarily because they tell you next to nothing. They aren't frequently asked questions - Otherwise, they'd be culled from the forums and the myriad of question we've already put up. Some of them are very GOOD questions, but I don't see them asked here. I could just be blind.

Regardless, its way too hot in this room so I am gonna move stuff around and install my pretty little AC. Enjoy!
Bomber
I think most of us can agree that had there been no FAQ, there would be less negativity on DS...

Throw in some good old fashioned elf pron, and I would have super happy to buy anything they brought out! eek.gif
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 6 2005, 04:51 PM)
QUOTE (GaiasWrath8 @ Jun 6 2005, 04:48 PM)
You know what I like about threads, people really can and do say what they want with out fear of getting there ass beat. smile.gif

In real life, some one raises there voice to me and I am more likly to punch them in the gut than reply. smile.gif

Well, aren't you just Johnny Hardcore?

In my experience guys like that are either all wind, passing the world by, because if they were really like that, they'd be inside. Reality check buddy, this isn't grade school. You start throwing down and win or lose, you end up in trouble. bad movies apart bars don't like jerks who cause trouble and like the signs say 'police take notice."
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Bomber)
I think most of us can agree that had there been no FAQ, there would be less negativity on DS...

Throw in some good old fashioned elf pron, and I would have super happy to buy anything they brought out!  eek.gif

But GenCon could have gotten ugly.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Bomber @ Jun 6 2005, 07:14 PM)
I think most of us can agree that had there been no FAQ, there would be less negativity on DS...

which was the whole point of my put it off thread. Fanpro has handled it so badly that what was mild irritation and alot on people saying "I'm not happy but I'll wait and see" to far more saying "no damn way."

Had angst the fixer read what I wrote in that thread instead of just whining he would have realized that.

QUOTE
Frostpsp-*Lives in grand old New York.*  I don't trust my government
Dude you live on long island, home of Joey Buttafucco, the Consumer powerbase
frostPDP
Eh, surprised to see you knew I was on LI.

That being the facts, I still don't trust my government. I don't trust rampant consumerism, either. Is it any wonder why my happiest times are in upstate NY? Adarondacks style, in the woods? Well maybe not -all- my happiest ones....But this ain't about me, unless I'm gonna live till 2070.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)
You know what I like about threads, people really can and do say what they want with out fear of getting there ass beat. smile.gif

In real life, some one raises there voice to me and I am more likly to punch them in the gut than reply. smile.gif

And I suppose for the exceptionally spineless that might be a motivating factor.

Let's get one thing straight: some of us are perfectly willing to call a fucking idiot a fucking idiot in real life, to their face. I can also call fucking idiotic statements fucking idiotic, and there's one in the quoted text. If you'd like to meet in person sometime for me to tell you it again, I'd be glad to.

~J
weblife
I could be the voice of reason. But whats the reason? frown.gif

SR4 will be released soon. I look forward to it, as it will have to deal with 6+ TN's, which will help spells like shapechange and other TN Attribute spells. - Under SR3 they are just flawed. Good luck changing a BOD 12 troll into anything.

Nothing of the SR4 stuff I have read sound intimidating. The playtesters worst complaint is; "It wasn't necessary to change that aspect", they do not say the new aspect is useless. Just different.

Flame on people. Resistance is futile. It will happen. And it will be good.
mfb
the above post has at least one inaccuracy.
Critias
The last paragraph has at least one inaccuracy.
chevalier_neon
I wish you could remember a time when cars were using steam engine, before using oil engine... Hey, guys, you know what, in the end, it is still a car, and it is more reliable.

That's exactly my point of view about SR4 rules... I don't care if they revamp the whole system, as soon as I can still play in SR world, and if rules are also making more sense.

And I can at least understand Ankh's complaints : most of the point of view expressed here are too radical. Ok, I know that pro and "anti/suspicious" SR4 fans don't have enough details to judge the new system. But just adopt in this case a wait and see policy instead of saying, this is crap, dev team are f*****g as**oles and the like...

Feel tired of this forum in the end....
Critias
So why is it you can say you're tired of "the anti crowd" (and they can be told to stop talking, they can be called names, whatever they say can be dismissed), but at the same time "the anti crowd" is by no means allowed to do the same about SR4?

How is it not hypocritical to complain about close-minded negative name-callers by turning into a close-minded negative name-caller?
chevalier_neon
In no way I wanted to criticize people "anti" (or whatever the name) SR4. What I mean is I am tired because there is no discussion possible. Everybody's overreacting, and so, in the end, it is quiet boring.

Everybody has the right to give his feeling/thoughts... but I have been taught when I was younger that you cannot judge something you don't know at all... This is the best way to ignorance...
chevalier_neon
QUOTE
If people want to play SR4, they'll play SR4. It'll have it's own sub-system devoted to it (we won't have SR3 and SR4 side by side, so that walking from one bar to another suddenly ages your character 5 years and gives him a handful of new attributes), cleanly and clearly seperated from SR3 games. It's not like the main dance floor of a club will be full of 3rd edition characters, and SR4 players only get the shitty alley out back, or like some existing SR3 gun shops won't pander to their kind, or something.

And if the interest is there for SR4 but the SL experience (or even general gaming experience) is lacking, I know I, at least, will be giving SR4 a shot and seeing how it runs. If I give it a shot by running games for newbies, then I run games for newbies. I'm not going to come out and say that all the other experienced 'Landers (much less Supers) are converts, who are going to play a game we don't like because of some imaginary obligation to do so, though. If SR4 is a decent system, people will play it (all us grizzled old hard-hearted veterans, not just random noob-off-the-streets).


You are really someone strange, Critias... why are we arguing in this case ? wink.gif
Critias
I am a man of many contradictions. *cue spooky music*
chevalier_neon
Just to clarify things. I think that all we can do, on regards of the information given to us, is just to make suppositions (ie : will there still be essence ? Is essence that important ? How will it be related to magic attribute as this one won't be of 6 anymore etc). People can say : in this case, I agree, I don't agree etc. But, how can people say : I won't play !... that is what really amazed me...
I would prefer the kind of debate I was talking above, to all those rantings that does'nt lead to anything in the end.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 6 2005, 04:04 PM)
You don't already have a Johnny Hardcore?

No. Just a John Smallberries.
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