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mfb
QUOTE (Taki)
People sticking with sr3 should'nt come to criticize the rules in sr4 forum, since their only interest will be arguing and being right - constructive criticizem from alternat sr4 are a constructive add on (in the same way sr4 player shouldn't go in sr3 forum to say people there are animals in extinction eg.!).

maybe it's because some of us don't want to stick with SR3? maybe there are some of us who want a new version of the SR rules, but don't like the version that's coming out? i'm just spitballing, here.
Eldritch
QUOTE
The "nothing" written is linked to situation were people speak on rules they don't know - and with no constructive impact as today, especially when I see the people with strong positions that couldn't change with discution, only with playtest:, and a future situation with SR4 established, some people will adopt it, some people won't. People sticking with sr3 should'nt come to criticize the rules in sr4 forum, since their only interest will be arguing and being right - constructive criticizem from alternat sr4 are a constructive add on (in the same way sr4 player shouldn't go in sr3 forum to say people there are animals in extinction eg.!).



I expect hat there will be an explosion of posts - from all sides - once the book hits the streets. (DS Server had better be prepared that week:) )

There will be much discussion, disection, and comparison to SR3 and othergame systems.

Then there will be camp hopping - pro to anti, anti to pro, and the wait and see's to either side.

Then the discussions, arguments, etc will taper down, the SR3 peeps will slink back to the old SR forum, leaving the SR4s to their shiny new Metropolis.

The fact is I - and I'm sure others - will be relying on the discussions here. I just can't justify the expense to buy another set of rules for Shadowrun. Yeah, I'll listen with an open mind. If the reviews here are stellar, then I'll pick it up and look at it - I'll even go out of my way and check it out. If the reviews here are less than stellar, well then I'll pick it up and thumb through it next time I stumble across it with some time.

I'm really hoping that the Preview/Teaser pamphlet that has been discussed will really break the new rules down, and give a clear idea of how things will be.

Look at it with an open mind? Yeah. I want them to succeed. Buy it? Probably not. I've got enough SR materiel to play for a good long time. They'll still get my money for the novels - and the proposed Almanac. I don't see them getting much beyond that.

Shadow
QUOTE (Taki @ Jun 15 2005, 04:54 AM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Nope, FASA/Fanpro's never used anything off the Internet.

Some Playtester / Dev were reading this forum. Why do you think ideas and comments written on it hadn't any impact on sr4?


It was pointed out to me that I may have misinterpreted some of the things I was told by Freelancers. And that in fact changes are still happening and suggestions from the boards in general are being read.

Well color me wrong, I hope I am about SR4.

I left the text I edited out in spoiler.

[ Spoiler ]
Reaver
QUOTE
It was made very clear to me months ago, that the rules were basically done and that nothing (major) at that point was going to change. This was what, about 3 weeks after the announcement? So while it is fun to argue and point and laugh at Fanpro for misreading their audience, they aren't going to change anything based on what we say. After all, DSF doesn't represent a market share.

And while various freelancers have hinted that they took ideas from DSF I seriously doubt it. Because I can't belive anyone on DSF would come up with some of the crap that is SR4.

Well maybe the Technomancer (adult Otaku) thing. Bleh.


Perhaps Fanpro would think to actually pay attention to thier market share on places like Dumpshock if thier new book were under boycott. Of course, that requires getting everyone to buy in before hand. Granted, they'd be really screwed as they already committed to production of the product... but hey, sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Just because your a customer and a fan, that doesn't mean you HAVE to buy a product from a company that doesn't listen and cater to your needs... let alone didn't bother to see what you wanted to begin with. frown.gif
Eldritch
QUOTE
Well maybe the Technomancer (adult Otaku) thing. Bleh.


That will be to-tally Wick-ed! Accessing the Matix with just the power of your brain! No cyber - w00t!
grinbig.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Reaver)
Perhaps Fanpro would think to actually pay attention to thier market share on places like Dumpshock if thier new book were under boycott. Of course, that requires getting everyone to buy in before hand.

That's exactly the problem. If SR4 is really that bad I'd be all about a boycott, but there's no way in hell I'm making that decision without having read through the core book a half-dozen times, and there ain't too many ways to do that that don't involve buying it.

~J
Critias
Except mugging. And that's a bad thing to announce intent for. Or, uhh, so I hear. Yes. Hear.
Shadow
QUOTE (Shadow)
QUOTE (Taki @ Jun 15 2005, 04:54 AM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Nope, FASA/Fanpro's never used anything off the Internet.

Some Playtester / Dev were reading this forum. Why do you think ideas and comments written on it hadn't any impact on sr4?


It was pointed out to me that I may have misinterpreted some of the things I was told by Freelancers. And that in fact changes are still happening and suggestions from the boards in general are being read.

Well color me wrong, I hope I am about SR4.

I left the text I edited out in spoiler.

[ Spoiler ]

I wanted people to see the above.
nezumi
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Reaver @ Jun 15 2005, 01:24 PM)
Perhaps Fanpro would think to actually pay attention to thier market share on places like Dumpshock if thier new book were under boycott.  Of course, that requires getting everyone to buy in before hand.

That's exactly the problem. If SR4 is really that bad I'd be all about a boycott, but there's no way in hell I'm making that decision without having read through the core book a half-dozen times, and there ain't too many ways to do that that don't involve buying it.

~J

Kag is right on. We can't very well make a fair decision until we've read the book, right? However, if the system sucks, remember they have six more books following they want to sell. Although, if the system sucks, I suspect we'll be the ONLY people buying more after the main book, since we're the only people silly enough to buy a book we don't like and won't use.
Cain
Well, here's the thing. If you don't like what you see on the shelves of your local FLGS, just postpone buying it for a month or so. Generally, the biggest sales of a game book come right after release. If the initial sales are sluggish, that'll send a clear message to FanPro that the system isn't what the fans want.

That's probably the path I'm going to take. Originally, my plan was to send money with a guy I know will be going to GenCon. Instead, I'm going to wait and check it out later.

If you guys want to put together a protest, just don't buy the book at GenCon. If they don't get a lot of big sales during the big release celebration, that should riase all kinds of flags with FanPro.
Starglyte
QUOTE (Cain)

If you guys want to put together a protest, just don't buy the book at GenCon.  If they don't get a lot of big sales during the big release celebration, that should riase all kinds of flags with FanPro.

Won't it be too late by then though? If Fanpro recieves these warning signs after they release the book, it is not like they can change the system again for quite some time. Maybe a 4.5 book couple years down the line. But by then it would be too late from the lack of sales. Then there would be no Shadowrun, and that would be sad.

How long have they been playtesting the game anyway? It is a shame that the problems people bring up with what we know of the system cannot be fixed in time for the printing of the book. But then, maybe 4th edition is not as bad as it is being made out to be. After all, very few of us ( the playtesters being the few) have seen the all of the new rules. So it just comes back to waiting until Aug.

FYI I'm in the pro SR4 camp. I will be picking up the new book when it is released. It will been then that I decide if I want to get the rest of 4th edition.
Nerbert
It would take every single registered member of Dumpshock to boycott SR4 before it would even make a difference. And lets face it, realisitically, how many people even post regularly to this SR4 board? 25? Maybe? Even if you could convince every one of those 25 people to boycott SR4 and everyone one of those 25 people convinced their gaming groups to boycott the game. Thats what? 200, 250 copies they're not selling? Goodness gracious, Fanpro will never recover the losses.
warrior_allanon
off topic i know but you know what like i give a drek at this point.

nerbert, you have been asked, you have been bribed, and now, i am threatening, i will pm a mod and ask them to ban you if you dont watch what you say. i know what i'm writing is completely against the rules and i will take the ban when it comes, but you sir need to either grow a civil tongue or shut the frag up, or better yet, just grow up.

now mods i place myself before your judgment
Cain
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Jun 15 2005, 06:47 PM)
It would take every single registered member of Dumpshock to boycott SR4 before it would even make a difference.  And lets face it, realisitically, how many people even post regularly to this SR4 board?  25?  Maybe?  Even if you could convince every one of those 25 people to boycott SR4 and everyone one of those 25 people convinced their gaming groups to boycott the game.  Thats what?  200, 250 copies they're not selling?  Goodness gracious, Fanpro will never recover the losses.

Dunno about how many read this forum, but Dumpshock boasts over 6000 members. Assuming everyone games with 3 others, and they all boycott or delay, that's a loss of 24,000 units.

Math can be your friend, Nerbert. You just gotta learn it, sometime. embarrassed.gif
mfb
i often wish nerbert would shut his yapper, but i really don't think he's breaking any rules.
Critias
I...must have missed it. What'd he say, recently, that's all worth drawing a line in the sand and puffing up your chest over?
Nerbert
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Jun 15 2005, 08:47 PM)
It would take every single registered member of Dumpshock to boycott SR4 before it would even make a difference.

What I was trying to say is that there's no way to get all 6085 of us to boycott the book. The best we could manage would be the people who post to the SR4 board, and even then we'd have to get us all to agree on a boycott. And my 200-250 assumes that everyone games with 8-10 people...
Taki
I disagree with you Nerbert, I think you underestimate both the number of people reading dumpshock and its influence on other forum (I am french and the biggest edit:FRENCH SR forums make reference to DS).
I guess you are right, that if most of DS member(SR gm -or harcore player) don't buying SR4 book it isn't such a deal, but their comment on the SR4 book on dumpshock can influence the sales by a much bigger amount.

But the SR4 comments would normally need reading the book.
Trapped in a paradox?
SirBedevere
QUOTE (Taki)
But the SR4 comments would normally need reading the book.
Trapped in a paradox?

Yes, somewhat. I am one of those who don't like what I have seen of SR4. So I am going to wait to hear from people who have bought the book when it comes out. At the moment my gaming group will probably buy one book for the history from 2065-2070 and for the matrix rules to convert to SR3.

I can't justify buying the new system unless it's "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive etc etc etc." And who knows, contrary to my expectations it might be. In a nutshell I'm going to let someone else take the risk.

Taki
EDIT and rewrite to outline some points I did not explain clearly.
QUOTE (Taki)
In 6 months, some people will still hate SR4 (for some good reasons if they have tried it with an open mind). I wonder how many of those will be wise enough to leave the SR4 thread and go to the SR3 thread ... 
Who will keep fighting for nothing ? 
 
The "nothing" written is linked to situation were people speak on rules they don't know - and with no constructive impact as today, especially when I see the people with strong positions that couldn't change with discution, only with playtest:, and a future situation with SR4 established, some people will adopt it, some people won't. People sticking with sr3 should'nt come to criticize the rules in sr4 forum ( when SR4 will be established, say 6 months after, so they have time to give their opinion), since their only interest (remaining when SR4 will be established) will be arguing and being right -

BTW thanks Jrayjoker for your explanation, it now make sens to me.
May be I could take more time for SR4 to appear on the gaming table, as a lot of people will "wait and see", which is a good way to decide to make an investment. Or not.
SirBedevere
Thanks for the explanation Taki.

I agree, by Feb - March 2006 SR4 will be a done deal. The good and bad points will have been done to death. Moaning about SR4 at that point will be a waste of time to put it mildly.
sanctusmortis
Well, the adult Otaku still seems twinky, but if they haven't totally scrapped TI tech then I'll give it a go. After all, I was warned not to touch SR3 and stick to v2 instead, and frankly I don't see why anymore... I'd have only shaped it to my will, anyhow.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Taki @ Jun 16 2005, 04:03 AM)
BTW thanks Jrayjoker for your explanation, it now make sens to me.

No problem, I've been in your situation.
Cain
QUOTE (Nerbert)
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Jun 15 2005, 08:47 PM)
It would take every single registered member of Dumpshock to boycott SR4 before it would even make a difference.

What I was trying to say is that there's no way to get all 6085 of us to boycott the book. The best we could manage would be the people who post to the SR4 board, and even then we'd have to get us all to agree on a boycott. And my 200-250 assumes that everyone games with 8-10 people...

Your assumptions (and math) is off again. Just because people don't post here, that doesn't mean they don't read this forum. We have a *lot* of lurkers. There's also a percentage of lurkers who simply choose to not register.

Now, for the math problem. If everyone games with 8-10 people, we're discussing anywhere from 48,680 to 60,850 books not sold. You really should check your own numbers. While not all of those will boycott, that's still a huge number of people you don't want to drive away.
Eldritch
Not that I enjoy jumping to Nerbies defense, But I believe his 200 - 250 number came from his 'the 25 or so of us that post regualry' sentence, and his '8-10 people we each play with' number.

Yeah, he's just pulling numbers out of his hoop. *Shrug*


But yeah, he needs to look at the 'viewed' column on the mage SR4 forum page.


*********
Curious about the total number of registered users though, mebbe an admin can answer - are these users purged once in awhile? Like purge out everyone that hasn't posted in over 180 days, or some such?


nezumi
And while the idea that each of us plays with 3 other people is nice, remember that probably 2 of those people are already accounted for, and the last guy wasn't going to buy the book anyhow. Yes, dumpshock has power, but I haven't seen ANYONE use any realistic numbers (not that you really could in the first place). Just as well, it's all academic, since none of us are going to judge it before reading it, right?
Jrayjoker
ROTFLMAO

rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif

Cough cough, noooooo. Noone will prejudge it I am sure. wink.gif
Eldritch
Speaking for myself, I have not pre-judged the quailty of the work.

I have pre-judged the need for SR4 - and found it guilty.

But, I will look at this new game when it comes out, and give it a fair shake - while thumbing through it at B&N or the local gaming shop. I really, really doubt I will buy it though.

So far, I don't like most of what we've been told about; fixed target numbers, threshold, edge, lower starting character power, PANs, etc.

*shrug* maybe they'll pull it all together into something usable. As I've said, I hope so - I'd hate to se my favorite game die out.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Eldritch)
But yeah, he needs to look at the 'viewed' column on the mage SR4 forum page.

To be fair, that does include a number of repeat views—for instance, I view some lengthy topics (400+ total posts) upwards of a hundred times as I follow a reply notification link after every few posts.
QUOTE
Curious about the total number of registered users though, mebbe an admin can answer - are these users purged once in awhile?  Like purge out everyone that hasn't posted in over 180 days, or some such?

There are registered users who have not posted since the last board transition slightly under two years ago. I'll let you work out the implications.

Really, purging doesn't make any sense for a long-lasting medium. If this were just a giant chatroom that didn't get logged, sure, but it isn't.

~J
Eldritch
QUOTE
QUOTE (Eldritch)
But yeah, he needs to look at the 'viewed' column on the mage SR4 forum page.

To be fair, that does include a number of repeat views—for instance, I view some lengthy topics (400+ total posts) upwards of a hundred times as I follow a reply notification link after every few posts.


I know, but even if you cut that viewed number in half, thats still a fair about of lurkage.


tisoz
My rule of thumb for estimating how many people are following a topic is to take the # of views and divide it by the # of replies and round up for people who are viewing but not catching each post.
Nerbert
Using tisoz's rule of thumb, a thread on the first page of the Shadowrun 4 Forum has an average of 20 views per reply.

In any case, a boycott requires a large number of very vocal, opinionated people who all agree with each other. Dumpshock, as a whole, may have the numbers, but thats it.
Jrayjoker
The boycot is fun to think about, but a pipe dream really.
Snow_Fox
As a formal plan, maybe, but as somethnig which just happens when people don't buy? Maybe not. Let me put it this way. It has been several years since SR stuff has been in the big stores like Borders, where you can still get D&D and even WoD. If curious about the new products, you can brouse through it there and think "Oh hey this looks good" or "Gee, I don't think so." without spending any money BUT since SR hasn't been in those stores, it won't get that chance. How many of you are willing to lay out $25-35 sight unseen?

Sure some hobby shops like NY's Complete Stratgist still stocks SR but most of the big chains do not. They can make a bnig splash about it at Gen Con and in trade papers but if you can't look through it yourself? Unlikely.
blakkie
Unable to find a local store or a friend with a copy to glance through? Not hip to the flood of millions buying books sight unseen? There is an answer to that. Well that isn't directly the answer, but that is as close as i can link and not have the post deleted since that site won't actually find you the paydata nor does it link to sites that will.

No, it doesn't give the same exposure as sitting on a store shelf. But the gist is nowadays there are shady ways to preview without finding it in a store. Frankly if I had no other way to check the book out and didn't trust the slices of info and reviews by people with the book then i'd be able to sleep at night if i made sure to quickly either delete the file or buy the book. YMMV
Adam
Interesting factoid about the big chain bookstores: A few years ago, they used to [generally] devote about 12 feet of shelf space to gaming products. Since graphic novels and manga have become so popular, that 12 feet of shelf space has been reduced to about 4 feet -- and that space has to include the space-hogging D&D Minis game, along with books.

Nonetheless, with the release of SR4, we should be seeing SR4 in the book trade.
blakkie
I don't hit the chains that often, certainly rarely for gaming books. But what i've noticed over time is that part of that space loss is accounted for by showing only the spline of books. Which i guess might be partially the natural result of only stocking one, two, or perhaps three of each book?

EDIT: Interestingly it has been a few years now since the FLGS SR was demoted from all books front-on in one full side of magazine style rack in a prime spot to a single, backseat, spline-only length of shelf maybe 2' long. Hell it took me some work just to locate it (big store). The flood of D20 family of products had squeezed out the aging SR line. I do expect that to change with SR4 release, at least shortterm.
Adam
My general understanding of the situation is you have to pay [either directly, or by participating in various promotions that may involve other costs/benefits] to have your books shelved face-out on the racks where spine-out is the norm.
Cheops
I think the truly sad thing about SR is this story:

I was playing WFB in a local gaming store a couple of weeks ago and a guy came in who used to play back in the day but hadn't recently. He was perusing what was currently available in terms of games. The guy who was working showed him just about every game system, including stuff like Rifts and Savage Worlds, but didn't even mention SR. As a loyal player I had to mention it to him to bring any attention to the 2 lonely books sitting all by themselves.

Maybe he didn't say anything because he knew SR4 was coming out but then again he talked at length about Exalted which is getting a second edition next year. Maybe SR4 will change SR's current sorry state where I live but I have a feeling all it will do is replace the SR3 main book and not increase shell space. At least it will get mentioned... smile.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Adam)
Interesting factoid about the big chain bookstores: A few years ago, they used to [generally] devote about 12 feet of shelf space to gaming products. Since graphic novels and manga have become so popular, that 12 feet of shelf space has been reduced to about 4 feet -- and that space has to include the space-hogging D&D Minis game, along with books.

Nonetheless, with the release of SR4, we should be seeing SR4 in the book trade.

Yeah, that sounds about right for what I've seen at B&N and Borders, although to be fair B&N has taller shelves so they get more things (I found books there the FLGS didn't have, which was surprising). As opposed to Hastings, which AFAIK is still a fairly decent sized chain actually increasing their RPG space over the last couple of years and removing other books (westerns, etc.) to make room for manga and more TPBs and graphic novels. But here's the thing--I used to buy all my books there, because they used to carry a lot of books and would get them before the FLGS (this is back when there were 3 in town--now there's one), and the FLGSes used to have Shadowrun sections--one had SR on one side of a freestanding shelf, ED on the other, and BT got it's own free-standing shelf. Another, my fave because it was the closest, has a whole shelf about six feet tall and about that wide or a little wider with every SR2 book and most SR1 (even UB). The only FLGS in town (and AFAIK, state) when I would visit once or twice a year since coming back usually only had 4-6 SR3 books (tough they had a SR1 GM screen once) and it was a pretty lousy selection. Even last month when SR was the Game of the Month and sitting right next to the door there were only 8-9 books--and that was it. Plus there's a Commando based out of the store, and games are held every Friday night, but... meh. 4-6 different books at a time if you're lucky. But you know, I can only see the same damn copy of WotC and R3R over again so much.

Anyway, getting back to the point, Hastings had one lonely copy of MitS printed by Fanpro, and the same copy languished for years. It's gone now as of the last month. But the impression I get from other people is that SR's gone. It died with FASA. And before I moved, when all of the early SR3 books came out, I found more of them at chain stores (I didn't find YotC until I went to a WotC store). SR, to me, has an image problem (or lack thereof) with retailers. Or at least, that's my impression.

One of the more disappointing aspects is that there isn't a lack of SR3 books, but back in the mid-90s these places had SR2 and SR1 books, but so many SR3 books nullified the utility of those books that it wasn't worth keeping early SR1 books like NAGNA and the NANs when you have SoNA. I'm not saying it's a great system, but I've found more interesting SR1-2 books I never bought at the time at the used book store next to the FLGS (although last time I visited, they only had SR1 Grimoire). Plus the books are more expensive, which while I can appreciate, it'd be nice to have a book once in a while that was under $20. Not so much for me, I can afford it, but for someone in the apparent target age group of SR4 (i.e., pre-teen and up).
Fortune
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
... pre-teen and up ...

rotfl.gif

Couldn't resist, could you?
Crimsondude 2.0
Of course not.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Adam)
My general understanding of the situation is you have to pay to have your books shelved face-out on the racks where spine-out is the norm.

This is a very popular misconception. It's not true.

Books get shelved face out for 3 different reasons:

1) When the clerk stocked the shelf, it was the only way to fit that many copies of it on the shelf.

2) The clerk was neatening the shelves, and that book was the right width to make things fit properly.

3) The clerk happens to like that particular book.

Cheops
Or the clerk had a handful of books and didn't want to bother putting them up nicely so he just threw them in spine out.
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