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Shadow
QUOTE (Bomber @ Jun 6 2005, 04:14 PM)
I think most of us can agree that had there been no FAQ, there would be less negativity on DS...


I think most of us agree it was the rules information presented in the FAQ that caused the outcry. If the limited information the FAQ's presented was good, then there would be a lot less negativity.

But since all the rules changes they have presented have been to parts of the game no one a lot of people didn't think were broken, well it causes problems when people fix things that aren't broken and leave the broken things in place.
Taki
QUOTE (Shadow)
But since all the rules changes they have presented have been to parts of the game no one considered broken(...)

...
variable TN
No influence of attribute on using low rank skills
very complex rules for a lot of things ...

I am no one ? I think those parts of sr3 are broken.
Garland
QUOTE (frostPDP)
Garland: I said I'd bet that many people are vaguely skeptical of the government. Pretty fair post, I'd think - And if I'm wrong, then I lose nuyen. Sucks to be me.

Is that what you were saying? Ah, well, then, nevermind. That is about as safe an assumption as one could possibly make.
Shadow
QUOTE (Taki)
QUOTE (Shadow)
But since all the rules changes they have presented have been to parts of the game no one considered broken(...)

...
variable TN
No influence of attribute on using low rank skills
very complex rules for a lot of things ...

I am no one ? I think those parts of sr3 are broken.

See I don't think Variable TN's or the other two things are broken...

I do apologize, I should have said "a lot of people" instead of no one. I will edit now.
Taki
Actually a lot of people think those parts are not broken, but a lot of people think those parts are.

The bad thing is I might not be able to know if I am satisfied by sr4 just with the core book frown.gif
hermit
And what about decking and rigging rules? Does anyone (besides Kag) NOT consider them unnescessarily complex and very sluggish in play?
Eldritch
QUOTE
And I can at least understand Ankh's complaints : most of the point of view expressed here are too radical. Ok, I know that pro and "anti/suspicious" SR4 fans don't have enough details to judge the new system. But just adopt in this case a wait and see policy instead of saying, this is crap, dev team are f*****g as**oles and the like...


Hey! Thanks for putting words in our collective mouth!

We have not said that the new rules are crap, nor have we resorted to calling the devs names.

However it has become sport recently for a few infividuals to crap all over the anti-sr4 crowd becuase they don't like what they are hearing.

I am perfectly willing to admit that I hated the idea of a new edition when the announcement was made. But I stuck around to see just what kind of changes are being made. Yes, a few of the changes seemed cool in the beginning - the new matrix in particular - but the more they leak out, the worst things look for my favorite game.

See post above/page back concerning the speeding car.

Lets get this through some of the thicker heads.

We do not fear change. We do not hate change. We question the need for change of this magnatude. SR3 was not so broken that it, and the 15+ years of work (With the mechanics) needed to be tossed out the window.

We do not hate the Devs, we respect their need to make money. We think they could have gone about it differently, how ever that is just our opinion. Which will hopefully hold some weight with them.

We - and a lot of the ProSr4 crowd do not like the way the faqs have been presented. We need more meat, and less BBq sauce.

So before you get all bent out of shape and resort to name calling and such, step back, take a deep breath. Realize that we will post our opinions on the situation, the faqs, and anything else that crops up. Then take a gigantic chill pill. Then sit back down to your keyboard.

Shadow
Once again with feeling!


QUOTE
I am getting a little bit tired of my arguments being discounted for the following reasons...


1. It's a new edition and there will always be people who hate a new edition just because it is change.


> I would like to point out that when the SR4 announcement was first made I was hugely excited! Why? Because the change from 2 to 3 was a vast improvement. I was looking forward to the same kind of refinement. Fanpro should be calling this Shadowrun: 2070. Because it is not a 4th edition, it is a 1st edition.


2. I am flying off the handle and I don't know what I am talking about because I have not seen the complete rules.

>I have chosen to not see a number of Films based entirely on the preview. Thats what a preview is for, it is to get you interested in the product. So far the SR4 previews have been a complete disaster. Like the movie Titanic, I don't have to see it to know I won't like it.


I understand completely Fanpro's decision, and I understand why they made it, I simply disagree with there assessment that the SR3 rules had to be completely scrapped in order to bring in new fans.

ADD&D was transformed into D&D 3 without scrapping the entire system. They simply stripped it back to the basics and reworked it. Fanpro could have done the same thing. Called it SR4 and released a great product.

If they had done that though they would still be working on a FASA product and not a wholly original Fanpro product.
Shadow
QUOTE (hermit)
And what about decking and rigging rules? Does anyone (besides Kag) NOT consider them unnescessarily complex and very sluggish in play?

I never said they weren't. But re working Decking and Riggers doesn't require an entirely new (simplified) mechanic. Those are add ons to the core rules, and they could have been reworked.

Nobody who isn't a fan (in other words people who don't play SR) wouldn't no diddly squat if SR4 came out and it was a revised, refined version of the current game. Hell they could have scrapped everything but the core mechanic and stripped the game back to its basics and started over.

But again that would be like I said above. That would still be working on someone elses game. This way they get to make their own original game.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Ellery)
d20 just switched from using subtraction for some things to using addition for calculating TN. (THAC0/AC vs. attack bonus/AC). The mechanic is exactly the same. They came up with an easier way to do the math.

Save when you were rolling presental dice, save when you were trying to roll highest number and still be under the TN... Yes, D&D only used D20's that were out to gett higher than a TN, save when they weren't.

See, THAC0 is not nearly as big the changes in skill uses witch wer aimed at rolling lower than your skill rating, and that were based nearly only on your stats.
Shadow
QUOTE (Cynic project)
QUOTE (Shadow @ Jun 6 2005, 01:13 PM)
.

ADD&D was transformed into D&D 3 without scrapping the entire system. They simply stripped it back to the basics and reworked it. Fanpro could have done the same thing. Called it SR4 and released a great product.

Save the fact that they added feat,changed all the classes, the rules for leveling,the races you can play, the power of the black hats, the rules for skills, magic, the rules for magical items, the rules for NPCs, the rules for basic tastes, the rules for weapons, the rules for just about everything.

I want to see the rules they kept the same?

Since I don't have my AD&D books and my 3e books with me I can't provide a detailed and conprehensive list. However I can say that most of the rules were just refined. The class system wasn't changed, hit points were not changed, saving throws were changed but the mechanic was the same. Mechanically the game plays a lot like ADD&D, except they refined it. That's what you do in a new edition. You take what you learned and you make it better.

In fact most of the things you list in your post were actually 'changed'. mostly just tuned up. Daggers still use D4s for damage, they still do damage and take away from your hitpoints, you still roll a D20 to hit your opponent AC works the same (except the reversed the numbers like in Gama World) etc.

I can hazard a guess that mechanically nothing in SR4 will work like SR3.
Taki
Class have been quite changed !!! The taste has been kept but the system is very different.
mfb
not really. the system is very much the same--you've got warrior, cleric, wizard, and rogue classes; each class advances by gaining the xp necessary to reach the next level; each class has special abilities related to their purpose. the overall system has been streamlined (in a good way) and better-integrated, sure; easier multiclassing, for instance, a flat level-by-xp table that all classes use, etcetera. but it's still very much a D&D game.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (ankh-le-fixer)
when i read the thread "please delay SR4 for a year" i think to myself : another "We are SR hardcore geeks and didnt like the idea of major changes in the game we play 10h/day (the others 14 hours left, we post on dumpshock biggrin.gif ) and so always complain about something we dont know anything about except 20 small lines in a FAQ" thread!

SR3 has a core system which is bugged (non linear probability when TN increased which results in a lot of nonsense when skill, attribute or TN bigger than 6 (which is very frequent) ) if you dont believe me check the statistics table...but that s not my point

the idea in SR4 is to change the system to be easier, with streamlined gameplay and an update of technologies but to keep the background and spirit of SR. if this idea of a new edition which change deeply the rules system is unbearable for you, stay in SR3 and stop annoying the many people who want to see it and believe that Fanpro will not killed his universe by releasing a bad or not tested edition !!!

and stop saying stupid things like "i dont like SR4" (we know nearly nothing about it so we can t judge it)

I think administrators have to create a section of the forum dedicated to all of you so you can spit on SR4 with others antiSR4 and stop harassing the others with always the same bullshit mad.gif

Une fois du plus, en francais, s'il vous plait. Je dois m'entrainer de lire le francais.
Shadow
QUOTE (Taki)
Class have been quite changed !!! The taste has been kept but the system is very different.

Exactly how did classes get changed? They went back to Fighter from warrior, and added Sorc and druid. Besides the added feat system all the classes function as they did in the multiple previous editions.

I don't think this is the appropriate forumn to discuss it in, but I think if you compared the two side by side you would see that they did not scrap as much as you think they did. They just refined the system.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 7 2005, 11:00 AM)
not really. the system is very much the same--you've got warrior, cleric, wizard, and rogue classes; each class advances by gaining the xp necessary to reach the next level; each class has special abilities related to their purpose. the overall system has been streamlined (in a good way) and better-integrated, sure; easier multiclassing, for instance, a flat level-by-xp table that all classes use, etcetera. but it's still very much a D&D game.

In SR4, it seems that its still a skill-based system (instead of class and level), you still gain Karma to improve your abilities, certain types of characters (mages, technomancers, etc.) have their own special abilities, the same core dice mechanic (multiple d6 vs. TN to determine success) is still being used, and the overall system is being streamlined and better-integrated according to its design philosphy.

Seems like its still the same basic system according to your description of D&D3e vs. AD&D.
mfb
it is the same basic system--never claimed it wasn't. the devil is in the details. in D&D, the details are good.
Ol' Scratch
As made evident by the amount of hate the d20/D&D system gets, too, right?
mfb
clarification, meatbag: good to me.
Critias
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
As made evident by the amount of hate the d20/D&D system gets, too, right?

Right. 'Cause there's no way that's just people taking potshots at the big dog, out of jealousy at it's market power/popularity/longevity.
Ol' Scratch
And there's no way people can just dislike it because they dislike it either. Course, both arguments hold true for the hate for SR4, too, save that the "big dog" aspect is replaced by the "oh noes its new" aspect.
Wireknight
The thing about d20 versus 2nd Edition/1st Edition/Advanced, talking about D&D, is that the things people complain about were present throughout, or are not mechanical in nature (i.e. the old "too many prestige classes to count" and the new "too many prestige classes to count, too many base classes to count"). D&D always worked like d20, it just didn't work as cleanly/uniformly, with mappable linear progressions (up and until the clusterfuck that is L21+).

Shadowrun 4th Edition will not work like Shadowrun 3rd Edition. In fact, a great deal of damage can be done attempting to maintain a SR3-oriented outlook when implementing and interpreting rules with the SR4 system, because they are mechanically quite different. Among other things, reductions/increases in target number do not translate cleanly to reductions/increases in dicepool versus a static target number.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (chevalier_neon @ Jun 7 2005, 03:30 AM)
And I can at least understand Ankh's complaints : most of the point of view expressed here are too radical. Ok, I know that pro and "anti/suspicious" SR4 fans don't have enough details to judge the new system. But just adopt in this case a wait and see policy instead of saying, this is crap, dev team are f*****g as**oles and the like..

Dammit. NO one said either of those things and you know it. It's this kind of bullshit that's pissing people--namely, me--off.

People get to talk shit about us with impunity (I don't recall anyone saying the poo-flinging monkeys comment was out of line) and put words in our mouths, and then they act like we're the assholes. That's as blindingly stupid and hypocriticial as I've seen on DS.

QUOTE (Eldritch)
QUOTE
And I can at least understand Ankh's complaints : most of the point of view expressed here are too radical. Ok, I know that pro and "anti/suspicious" SR4 fans don't have enough details to judge the new system. But just adopt in this case a wait and see policy instead of saying, this is crap, dev team are f*****g as**oles and the like...


Hey! Thanks for putting words in our collective mouth!

We have not said that the new rules are crap, nor have we resorted to calling the devs names.

Why bother anymore?

There's not a damn thing either of us can say that will somehow dispel these characterizations. Don't bother.
Critias
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
And there's no way people can just dislike it because they dislike it either. Course, both arguments hold true for the hate for SR4, too, save that the "big dog" aspect is replaced by the "oh noes its new" aspect.

You're absolutely correct. Well, maybe half the time.

If you look back to the archives of the SR4 forum, very few people were shaking their fist in the air just to protest it being new. At least half of the people that are now in the "anti-SR4" crowd (though I continue to prefer to be categorized as the "serious misgivings about SR4, but I'm stupid and loyal enough to try it, anyways") weren't anti-SR4 until we found out what was being changed, and how. Not very many people at all were just having a knee-jerk reaction to it being a new edition; most of us were put off more and more, by learning more and more about it.

But, well, that doesn't matter. Everyone wants to claim we're just frightened of change, and despite our repeatedly showing them otherwise, they keep claiming it. I should expect rational, open-minded, discourse (instead of smug name calling) from you less than almost anyone else, anyways, so there was no real reason for me to post this. Carry on.
Eldritch
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (chevalier_neon @ Jun 7 2005, 03:30 AM)
And I can at least understand Ankh's complaints : most of the point of view expressed here are too radical. Ok, I know that pro and "anti/suspicious" SR4 fans don't have enough details to judge the new system. But just adopt in this case a wait and see policy instead of saying, this is crap, dev team are f*****g as**oles and the like..

Dammit. NO one said either of those things and you know it. It's this kind of bullshit that's pissing people--namely, me--off.

People get to talk shit about us with impunity (I don't recall anyone saying the poo-flinging monkeys comment was out of line) and put words in our mouths, and then they act like we're the assholes. That's as blindingly stupid and hypocriticial as I've seen on DS.

QUOTE (Eldritch)
QUOTE
And I can at least understand Ankh's complaints : most of the point of view expressed here are too radical. Ok, I know that pro and "anti/suspicious" SR4 fans don't have enough details to judge the new system. But just adopt in this case a wait and see policy instead of saying, this is crap, dev team are f*****g as**oles and the like...


Hey! Thanks for putting words in our collective mouth!

We have not said that the new rules are crap, nor have we resorted to calling the devs names.

Why bother anymore?

Becuase I refuse to sink to the Poo Flinging Monkeys Level smile.gif

Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Eldritch)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 7 2005, 06:30 PM)
Why bother anymore?

Becuase I refuse to sink to the Poo Flinging Monkeys Level smile.gif

It's not like there's a weight around your neck. It's whe you start calling people who don't agree with every word you say childish names and making up strawman arguments to shove in their mouths. I'd say you're pretty far from that.

As it is now, you may just be buried neck-deep and upside down in other people's poo.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Shadow)
QUOTE (Taki @ Jun 7 2005, 08:49 AM)
Class have been quite changed !!! The taste has been kept but the system is very different.

Exactly how did classes get changed? They went back to Fighter from warrior, and added Sorc and druid. Besides the added feat system all the classes function as they did in the multiple previous editions.

I don't think this is the appropriate forumn to discuss it in, but I think if you compared the two side by side you would see that they did not scrap as much as you think they did. They just refined the system.

Okay let's get to the basic leveling idea.

You take a human at level7/7 fighter/mage and a level 9 fighter in D&D2e? What has more exp? If you said the level 9 fighter you are right! In 2e, you had diffrent EXP for diffrent classes that they need to level. Now the class sytem is completly diffrent.

Fighters in 2e, were good with a few weapons, sure mroe than most other classes but still it was only a few. Now there are few weaposn theya ren't good with. They get more attacks at higher levels, in a diffrent way than they used to.They get more feats now..Wait in 2e they didn't have feats.

In 2e, there were no was nto reason to play anything other than human. They could get all the classes, and could get the most levels. The numbers of levels they had was limited to the number of classes their stats and alignments let them take times 19 or 20 depeneding the DM, for mages who could spealialize that was a shit load. i am level 19/19/19/.... nerco,invoker, conjor... Sure I would never hit level 20, but rigth ther i could cast all the spells of three mages a day!it was broke.

Another thing, any race can play any class, to any level.

You want a dwarven mage?Sure go right for it.

The classes are in theory all made to be balanced at any level. taking one level fighter should be jsut as good take one level of mage at any level you are. In pratice, the fighter types always mutli class, and spell casters only go up one class or prastige classes. I loved the prastige classes of 2e..They were so the best!


frostPDP
Keep in mind, my AD&D/D&D2e/Whatever experience is primarily Baldur's Gate based.

The verdict is in and varying XP costs for different classes is a stupid - No, moronic - idea. If you want to talk about complexity for no good reason, there you have it.

The verdict is also in - Feats are not the worst thing ever made up. It could be better, it could be worse, I personally like many/most of them.

D20? It has ups, it has downs. Its a pretty simple mechanic - GM decides the difficulty, you add your ranks/attribute/whatever and roll a simple 1d20.

The point? AD&D sounds nothing like D&D3e or 3.5. Just the same, SR3 sounds nothing like SR4.

The importance to this thread? You can throw D&D comparisons around, so long as you make sure you remember this is about SR's changing format. You can see that despite what's stayed the same both virtually (THAC0 replaced with AC) and actually (Good Karma is still around, last I heard) the differences are gigantic. They certainly justify a seperate games, but also a small thing I just noticed.

It used to be Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Now its just Dungeons and Dragons. This came with a huge format change....

...So does that mean Shadowrun needs a new name? Perhaps but not limited to any Shadow: The Running WW style name?
Cynic project
QUOTE (frostPDP)
...So does that mean Shadowrun needs a new name? Perhaps but not limited to any Shadow: The Running WW style name?

But that premise is so flawed it is not funny.

Pick up any of the three Story teller games in the Aeor/trinity Universe. They do not play or feel like each other in anyway. I would point out that this was the system that nWoD was based on, and the nWoD doesn't feel like any of those games. I mean, people come on, did the shadowrun feel like the old WOD? IF it didn't well, then their is no reason for the new shadowrun to be anymor elike the nWoD.
SR4-WTF?
QUOTE (frostPDP)
It used to be Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Now its just Dungeons and Dragons. This came with a huge format change....

...So does that mean Shadowrun needs a new name? Perhaps but not limited to any Shadow: The Running WW style name?

Dropping the "Advanced" was a marketing decision. It was felt that the "Advanced" implied that the product was a second step and therefore something that a newcomer should not buy until he had gone through the first step product. Since the first step product nolonger existed the anachronistic adjective "Advanced" was dropped to avoid confusion and appear as friendly as possible to potential new customers.

That obviously does not apply to Shadowrun as trying to give it a softer name would end up as something like Shadowrun For Idiots, which is a bit condescending. smile.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
Just because it's condescending doesn't make it untrue.
SR4-WTF?
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Just because it's condescending doesn't make it untrue.

You Germans are so very, very predictable.
mfb
hahaha, what?
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (SR4-WTF?)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 7 2005, 10:59 PM)
Just because it's condescending doesn't make it untrue.

You Germans are so very, very predictable.

Ich verstehe nicht.
SR4-WTF?
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 7 2005, 11:18 PM)
QUOTE (SR4-WTF? @ Jun 7 2005, 10:10 PM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 7 2005, 10:59 PM)
Just because it's condescending doesn't make it untrue.

You Germans are so very, very predictable.

Ich verstehe nicht.

Das ist warum der Hahn zum Frosch am Mittag kräht.
mfb
like the army chick i went out with in korea: cute, but inaccurate.
Crimsondude 2.0
With Korean or English?
mfb
the army chick? inaccurate with an m-16. skated through by virtue of an ass that looked good in BDUs.
Crimsondude 2.0
I didn't realize that was possible.

Now a flight suit.... grrrrrowww.
BookWyrm
I've seen my share of ladies in kakhis and/or fatigues.....it all depends on how they wear them, and how you look at them. Some can pull it off, others can't It's all amatter of personal tastes.

I refuse to pre-judge. I will not. Few things in this industry tick me off enough to warn others about how bad they are without experiencing them first. I tried to learn Magic-The Addiction from one of the designers....and couldn't get it. I tried to understand D20....and couldn't. But, on the other hand, I regularly re-read my Palladium Books games, and have no problem grasping their concept of gaming....even though my math skills bite rancid Ghoul flesh. (<-that was an expression, NOT a means for response!)

I will wait until I get a sample of the 'new' SR4 rules, and even then, I'll wait until I have the main rules in my hands & reading them before I make any kind of call. I reccomend that all nay-sayers do the same. Prove yourselves to be upright mobile bipeds!
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (BookWyrm)
I reccomend that all nay-sayers do the same. Prove yourselves to be upright mobile bipeds!

Ok, now you're just discriminating against all of us encephalons in life-support tanks.

~J
frostPDP
Yeah, I figured there's a reason I left that "Does Shadowrun need a new name?" Thing as a question. Probably because I was just throwing it out there rather than trying to make a point. Though I guess you could argue that they won't play like one another no matter what the circumstance, thus the entire comparison is false....But then you might just imply that Fanpro came up with Att + Skill +/- modifiers all on its own. Which ain't the case.

But for not trying to raise an argument, man...I did a good job LOL.
hermit
QUOTE (SR4-WTF?)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 7 2005, 11:18 PM)
QUOTE (SR4-WTF? @ Jun 7 2005, 10:10 PM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 7 2005, 10:59 PM)
Just because it's condescending doesn't make it untrue.

You Germans are so very, very predictable.

Ich verstehe nicht.

Das ist warum der Hahn zum Frosch am Mittag kräht.

Kräht der Hahn auf dem Mist, ändert sich das Wetter oder es bleibt wie es ist?

Uh ... you know, I'm not quite sure the Dude is German to begin with.
Taki
QUOTE (SR4-WTF?)
Dropping the "Advanced" was a marketing decision. It was felt that the "Advanced" implied that the product was a second step and therefore something that a newcomer should not buy until he had gone through the first step product. Since the first step product nolonger existed the anachronistic adjective "Advanced" was dropped to avoid confusion and appear as friendly as possible to potential new customers.

They first try to vote for a new Name : Enhanced Advanced Dungeon & Dragon

It was class ... I don't now why they didn't keep it.

I have a new name: Moving Fast in the Dark

What do you think ?
mfb
he's not, in the least. i'm not sure if it was a veiled reference to nazism, or a case of badly mistaken identity.
Jrayjoker
Biff asked loudly, "Ich ben ein jellydoughnut?"

"Is that how I ask where the bathroom is?" aside to Buffy.

"Say it louder next time maybe they'll understand it better." replied Buffy

This hijack brought to you by Biff and Buffy, Americans on Vacation.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 8 2005, 03:16 AM)
he's not, in the least.

What you don't know could just about fill the Grand effing Canyon. nyahnyah.gif

Is that a tacit acknowledgement of something?

CAN YOU TRUST TEH CRIMSON D00D!?!
SR4-WTF?
QUOTE (Taki)
I have a new name: Moving Fast in the Dark

What do you think ?

It's missing that edgy hint of danger. How about "Carrying Scissors While Moving Fast In The Dark"?
Eldritch
QUOTE (SR4-WTF?)
QUOTE (Taki @ Jun 8 2005, 04:13 AM)
I have a new name: Moving Fast in the Dark

What do you think ?

It's missing that edgy hint of danger. How about "Carrying Scissors While Moving Fast In The Dark"?

How about:

QUOTE (SR4 Faq)
Teams of operatives combining skills and resources to accomplish criminal or psuedo-criminal missions. And so on.


grinbig.gif
SR4-WTF?
A smidgen too long. Drop the "And so on." from the end and we have a winner!
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