Communism in Sixth World - Dumpshock Forums

Communism in Sixth World, How it looks like?

Options

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

Jun 18 2005, 02:21 AM

Post #26

Guests

There is no Torgo. Torgo is just some sick freak's wet dream.

QUOTE (FlakJacket)

I meant only a small part of the have nots are going to become pinko commie bastards. The rest, they'll deal drugs, steal and rob, run the shadows, sell their bodies, sell other people's bodies etc. to move up the ladder as best they can and sod the other guy. Becoming one of the haves doesn't have to take place within the law, it's probably easier outside it. Which sounds suspiciously like the Redmond Barrens wouldn't you say? :)

You mean like the Soviet rather capitalistic black market?

For shame. No one would buy into such nonsense.

I mean, come on. When you're living on the brink of desperation, your natural reactions aren't to engage in ruthless exploitation and manipulation of people. It's to work together and trust one another. Stupid-head.

ShadowDragon8685

Jun 18 2005, 02:38 AM

Post #27

Horror

Group: Members
Posts: 5,322
Joined: 15-June 05
From: BumFuck, New Jersey
Member No.: 7,445

QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

You mean like the Soviet rather capitalistic black market?

For shame. No one would buy into such nonsense.

I mean, come on. When you're living on the brink of desperation, your natural reactions aren't to engage in ruthless exploitation and manipulation of people. It's to work together and trust one another. Stupid-head.

Yes...

And those with the twisted deviousness to exploit those who follow their natural reactions for their own gain are usually the ones who wind up as Haves.

Shrapnel

Jun 18 2005, 05:14 AM

Post #28

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 247
Joined: 28-November 04
Member No.: 6,852

QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue @ Jun 17 2005, 02:47 PM)

Here in the US, if we were running on a purely capitalist system, we wouldn't have bailed out the airlines after September 11th when they came whining for taxpayer money. Of course, then we'd have no airlines, and as super power with no airplanes, we'd be the laughing stock of the world, but you can't call it capitalism.

ATSA is a blight on humanity.

But no, the U.S. would still have a metric fuckton of airlines--even international ones. If United Airlines has taught people anything, it's that operating in bankruptcy for four years is pretty beneficial to stockholders (more customers because of lower rates, employees took pay cuts, the U.S. is now paying their employees' pensions, and so on.). Filing for bankruptcy was probably the smartest move UA made since deregulation.

Government subsidies are bad, no matter who is receiving them.

If the major airlines truly wanted to survive in a capitalist economy after 9-11, they would have offered the customers what they wanted, which is safer travel.

Instead, we have the government bailing them out, and the TSA to "protect" us... What a joke...

I personally say that if they can't survive based on the product or services they offer, they have no business being in business.

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*	Jun 18 2005, 05:20 AM Post #29
Guests	Oh, you're preaching to the choir on that one, except about the TSA. But we're missing the point. There's no such thing as a real Communist country in SR, which is why they're called Neo-Communists.

Shrapnel View Member Profile	Jun 18 2005, 05:37 AM Post #30
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852	My point about the TSA and capitalism is that it should be the individual airline's responsibility to provide security for their flights, not the government's. The airports should be responsible for their own security, as well. Same goes for Shadowrun. Notice that even Seattle has a contract for Lone Star to provide their security. Let's say that you run an airline in the Shadowrun universe, for example. Which would you feel more comfortable with? Allowing the government to assign all of their screw-ups and rejects to your security detail, or hiring a company like Knight Errant to provide security?

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*	Jun 18 2005, 05:47 AM Post #31
Guests	But they didn't, and wouldn't, hire KE. They'd hire Bob's Discount Guards. And you'd be lucky if Bob's Guards knew how to read, let alone recognize a MP-5 from a blow dryer. But that's how SR would work, sure. I just don't think that's how RL should.

Shrapnel View Member Profile	Jun 18 2005, 06:43 AM Post #32
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852	"Bob's Discount Guards"... Now there's a name that strikes fear in the hearts of shadowrunners worldwide... ;)

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Jun 18 2005, 08:09 AM Post #33
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	Remember that the paniced and unpredictable actions of an amatuer can be far more devestating than the calculable attack of a professional. You KNOW that sammie is going to be using a standard grip on his pistol and shooting at YOU. That paniced rent-a-guard might freak out and wind up shooting out the only light in the room. Or the high-pressure steam tank beside you. Or something. In game mechanics, this means he rule of six'd his 6 Qck dice to fire the AR he has no skills for, and generated six successess, toasting your butt. Or they could truely be so inept that you're only authorized to use nonlethal force against them, as a handicap. :)

Synner

Jun 18 2005, 02:25 PM

Post #34

Runner

Group: Members
Posts: 3,314
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado
Member No.: 185

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

the funny thing is that in many ways a corporate enclave looks very similar to a soviet style communist state. you live in corp housing, you eat corp food, you work for mother corp :P

Or a fascist corporativist state (like the 1930's German Nacional Socialists and the Italian Fasci)... take your pick ;)

QUOTE

as for the people in the barrens, they will most likely do whatever it takes to survive. some (mostly the young and single) will do all kinds of crime, alone or in groups (similar to how young people with no future today join gangs and deal drugs ++ ). the older and those with family however will most likely band together to asist each other. most likely these groups will form based on communist/socialist ideas (ie what is mine is yours).

We actually introduced a couple of larger versions of these running around the GeMiTo barrens in SoE, and they're actually inspired by current day anarcho-socialist proto-policlubs called Centri Sociali.

Snow_Fox

Jun 18 2005, 03:02 PM

Post #35

Prime Runner

Group: Members
Posts: 3,577
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gwynedd Valley PA
Member No.: 1,221

QUOTE (Jrayjoker)

Communism can't work in groups bigger than 1 person. Its human nature, we survived as a species by alternating between being greedy little bastards and helping each other out, but selfishness will always occur.

Other than that, Loose Alliances is you canon source and one stop shop for information.

quite right. Marx wrote a nice piece of fiction that cannot work in real life because it would require a shift in basic human nature. Real communism, which has NEVER existed in the world, would quickly become fuedalism with one bad crop, with those who can make food being protected by those who can fight in return for a portion of the limited resource, food, rather than accepting communal starvation.
A good example of this can be seen in modern North Korea. Farmers do the bare minimum they HAVE to on the communal lots and put asm uch effort as they can into their personal gardens.

I'm going ot have to disagree with Synner if he says modern Cuba is as close to real communism as we can get because it has a repressive govenrment that allows NO decent. There is no expression of thought allowed if it does not go along with the official line.

Likewise in modern Vietnam. For all the corruption that was in South Vietnam there was a relatively free press and dozens of papers. There are today 2 and they only plug hte party line. For an example of how titghtly control the Vietnamese are, if you saw the movie "We Were soldiers" with Mel Gibson a couple of years ago? The commander of the Vietnamese troops was vietnamese. He was covicted of treason for his part in that movie for how it portrayed vietnamese soldiers and was sentenced to 5 years inside.

Cynic project

Jun 18 2005, 05:22 PM

Post #36

Running Target

Group: Members
Posts: 1,032
Joined: 6-August 04
Member No.: 6,543

QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)

To be fair, one has to mention that capitalism isn't really working, either. I can't think of a single country that runs according to perfect capitalist ideals. If you look at the extent of corporate welfare in the world, you'll see that even the most gung ho of "capitalist" countries has on at least some level realized that the system just doesn't work. Here in the US, if we were running on a purely capitalist system, we wouldn't have bailed out the airlines after September 11th when they came whining for taxpayer money. Of course, then we'd have no airlines, and as super power with no airplanes, we'd be the laughing stock of the world, but you can't call it capitalism.

Even in SR, I don't see pure capitalism being implemented, because the megacorps will want some way to squeeze money out of people in addition to actually providing useful products or services, and if their subsidiaries are failing, they'll want some government around, even if its only function is to tax people and then bail out corporations with the proceeds. And it's hard for me to imagine any communist governments around in SR, because, well, we WERE trying to destroy communist countries during the cold war, and we were doing it for a reason. The megas would also try to destroy communist countries to open up new markets and teach existing governments that if you go around nationalizing things, the corps will mess you up. Communism in the 6th world might exist among certain cultures in places like Awakened Siberia, or one of those other parts of the world that have shunned what we think of as civilization, but as a government, I don't see it flying, because any place where people are using computers and cell phones, the corps are going to want to march in and give themselves monopolies on selling computers and cell phones.

True capitalism turns into a form of communism. Now this is of the worst and despotic economic outcomes, but it is true. In a true capitalism, you do not have monopoly laws,or even rules dealing with things such worker safety. This leads to the "Sprawl-mart" owning everything. Seeing as that there would only be one company and one source of jobs, that my friend is a form of communism.

By the way Marx was an economist,and was writing about economies, not governments . Neither capitalism or communism have to follow any given government structure.

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*	Jun 18 2005, 08:09 PM Post #37
Guests	I thought he was a historian, not an economist. Either way, he made some gross assumptions (which may have made him an economist after all) that were in part compromised by ... compromise. Actually, true capitalism and communism have some things in common, but what sets apart true capitalism is it's assumption that people will all have capital to invest (which is true when you consider the idea of human and intellectual capital). Capitalism values the investment and market economy whereas communism was focused on the alienation of modern man. If everyone could just do whatever hobby they love for a living while the jobs no one wants are done by someone (or thing) to compensate for that, then great. Otherwise, even working at a power plant can be alienating, let alone a chip processing facility. Capitalism doesn't respect or endeavor for monopolies, though, because they distort the free market, but without government intervention assumes someone (or rather, a group of someones) will join together to break any monopoly. The critical failure becomes one where negative externalities which might be untenable to a majority of people otherwise continue to exist so long as they do not have a pronounced effect on the market. This concept has been expressed by some critics of the current administration as (for example), "Faith-Based Environmentalism" for the perception that businesses will conserve and protect resources because it's in their and the market's rational interest to do so.

JongWK

Jun 18 2005, 08:50 PM

Post #38

Shooting Target

Group: Validating
Posts: 1,618
Joined: 29-January 03
From: Montevideo, Uruguay.
Member No.: 3,992

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

I'm going ot have to disagree with Synner if he says modern Cuba is as close to real communism as we can get because it has a repressive govenrment that allows NO decent. There is no expression of thought allowed if it does not go along with the official line.

I'd say Cuba is more and more a military dictatorship that nationalized most businesses.

Most real-life "hardcore leftists" in Latin America are a sad joke, having turned to rabid nationalism as a political weapon (I know, nationalist communists?).

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Jun 18 2005, 08:48 PM Post #39
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	the thing about intelectual capital is that everyone is a copying machine. only way for it to work is that everyone sits in their own little box and thinks about ideas. problem is that the best way for a human to come up with something new is by studying and improving the ideas of others. see a contradiction? allso, when rational thought and greed fight, greed allways wins...

Snow_Fox View Member Profile	Jun 19 2005, 03:20 AM Post #40
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221	Right, we go from Communism to fuedalism in one quick step. under pure Marxism, the state disappears and people act the "right way" because it should be obvious to them. but of course no "communist" who ever seized power could then dismantle his organization because he would then have to face people who didn't support his system, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Po-pot, Castro, Ho Chi Minh etc. instead to "defend" his system each became a totalitarian ruler who would tolerate no thoughts not in lnie with his "obviously right" form.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Jun 19 2005, 04:19 PM Post #41
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	the titles change, the style stays the same...

mattness pl View Member Profile	Jun 19 2005, 06:20 PM Post #42
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 6-August 03 From: Polish Ghetto Member No.: 5,342	S*. I didn't acquire info bout from DS Mailer :( . Critias -> LA. That's tough for me :-( . The only exception I'll make is SoA. I'm just too poor to buy new sourcebook. Welcome to postcommunist's reality. hobgoblin -> My English too poor to answer... But your reply was nice :D (one TV channel is more effective - it's like in Batman forever - everybody are tuned to the same message. Like in commercials: if you want to "escape", you change the channel. If you have one channel you can't escape, can not switch the channel). Jrayjoker -> "Just read "The Lord of the Flies."" Yes. That's good book. It shows how cruel are human beings are (children are NOT SO innocent), and explain in some way, how bolshevics hijacked the ideal of communism (but I still prefer democracy). Somebody mentioned about corporatation. Yeah. When I read Shiawase description in Corporate Shadowfiles** I felt like home :) . And coupon's - in Poland people got worthless money, but were looking for coupon's. For car, vodka, sweets, refrigirator. Synner -> Dictatorships? Boooring... There is something about comparison between communism and nazis (That was National Socialist party.). But IMHO Hitler's bribe the German society to accept his plans (Jews and wars). He used occupied countries (Russia, Poland, Holland etc.) and made industry from Holocaust, and slave labor. Communist's didn't fed on outside (not on this scale). Gros citizens of gulags were russians. Check N. Korea, and Cuba - despite of hunger and internal problems they're still on-it's-own formula. But still I don't know, what kind of communist paradises gamers can meet in Shadowrun. Maybe some luddism system? Or back-to-the-roots Like in Pol Pot's Cambodia, or in China during cultural revolution? Maybe some system based on anonymical party board (runners must find and kill all of them: "You must kill all 12 leaders").

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

Jun 19 2005, 09:36 PM

Post #43

Guests

QUOTE (mattness pl)

But still I don't know, what kind of communist paradises gamers can meet in Shadowrun.
Maybe some luddism system?
Or back-to-the-roots Like in Pol Pot's Cambodia, or in China during cultural revolution?

Think the exact opposite.

nezumi

Jun 19 2005, 11:44 PM

Post #44

Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,548
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760

QUOTE (Cynic project)

This leads to the "Sprawl-mart" owning everything. Seeing as that there would only be one company and one source of jobs, that my friend is a form of communism.

Sounds more like an oligarchy. It's not Marx' Utopia if there's still someone in charge (the CEO), and people are working to make money and in competition with each other, as opposed to because they honestly think it's the best thing for the community.

I will say, I'm quite amused to note that there's such an anti-socialist feeling here, while on the other forum I go to on RPOL (Roleplay Online), there seems to be a lot more support for socialism. Makes me wonder if DS posters are pessimists or realists. Either way, I still agree, socialism is a nice fiction based on a silly premise of an advanced social conscience becoming ingrained in each and every individual.

Supercilious

Jun 20 2005, 12:32 AM

Post #45

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 288
Joined: 7-December 04
Member No.: 6,873

QUOTE (nezumi)

QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jun 18 2005, 12:22 PM)

This leads to the "Sprawl-mart" owning everything. Seeing as that there would only be one company and one source of jobs, that my friend is a form of communism.

Sounds more like an oligarchy. It's not Marx' Utopia if there's still someone in charge (the CEO), and people are working to make money and in competition with each other, as opposed to because they honestly think it's the best thing for the community.

I will say, I'm quite amused to note that there's such an anti-socialist feeling here, while on the other forum I go to on RPOL (Roleplay Online), there seems to be a lot more support for socialism. Makes me wonder if DS posters are pessimists or realists. Either way, I still agree, socialism is a nice fiction based on a silly premise of an advanced social conscience becoming ingrained in each and every individual.

Shadowrun is a cynical game, it has no doubt affected all of us to some degree.

Snow_Fox View Member Profile	Jun 20 2005, 12:54 AM Post #46
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221	Uh chummer, you do know that Chinas' great cultureal revolution and Pol Pot's acts resulting in no new golden age and only resulted in the deaths of millions of people. In Cambodia people were murdered because of their class, even if they went along with the plan, because they had been "contaminated" with education.

toturi

Jun 20 2005, 01:15 AM

Post #47

Canon Companion

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

Uh chummer, you do know that Chinas' great cultureal revolution and Pol Pot's acts resulting in no new golden age and only resulted in the deaths of millions of people. In Cambodia people were murdered because of their class, even if they went along with the plan, because they had been "contaminated" with education.

Communism does not have qualms about taking harsh measures in time of emergency. If a biological terrorist attack were to occur in the United States or any other Western democracy, the politicians and pundits would be debating things back and forth for weeks before deciding on the proper measures. If it happened in China, even if an entire city was contaminated, the Chinese government would have no qualms about nuking the place to contain the spread of the disease. China does not have to worry about terrorists because the iron fist does not relax like in the old Soviet Union. Unfortunately, when the iron fist relaxes, you get things like Beslan.

Just seeing things from the other side.

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

Jun 20 2005, 01:22 AM

Post #48

Guests

QUOTE (toturi)

ve qualms about taking harsh measures in time of emergency. If a biological terrorist attack were to occur in the United States or any other Western democracy, the politicians and pundits would be debating things back and forth for weeks before deciding on the proper measures.

...

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 20 2005, 01:50 AM Post #49
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	yes. that's an earmark of communism. not despotism.

mattness pl

Jun 20 2005, 02:07 AM

Post #50

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 216
Joined: 6-August 03
From: Polish Ghetto
Member No.: 5,342

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

Uh chummer, you do know that Chinas' great cultureal revolution and Pol Pot's acts resulting in no new golden age and only resulted in the deaths of millions of people. In Cambodia people were murdered because of their class, even if they went along with the plan, because they had been "contaminated" with education.

2 000 000 people dead. That was 33% of Cambodia population, iirc. If you had book, glasses, or knew foreign language - Red Khmers get you to rice fields and killed with a hoe. And you're family.
I hope that story will cure any idealist among us...

QUOTE

If it happened in China, even if an entire city was contaminated, the Chinese government would have no qualms about nuking the place to contain the spread of the disease. China does not have to worry about terrorists because the iron fist does not relax like in the old Soviet Union. Unfortunately, when the iron fist relaxes, you get things like Beslan.

toturi - yeah. "Real communism" has great POLICE system. No problems with civil rights. You don't care about minorities... And you're internal police MUST be strong. If not - people will rebel.

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »