 Communism in Sixth World, How it looks like? |
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 Oct 11 2005, 12:17 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 26-April 05 Member No.: 7,360  |
Personally I think the PM we have here in Australia is a pretty rotten ruler. Jackboot Johnny has silenced democratic debate, tried to hide the antics of government from the public, played on peoples fears in an almost xenophobic way in order to get reelected, used government funds to push his own agenda, used fear of terrorism to push for less democratic rights and freedom, and just generally lied and misled the public.
But then that's politicians in general. The real problem is that the man keeps getting reelected, he is now Australia's longest serving Prime Minister. |
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Oct 11 2005, 01:23 AM
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#77
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And yet he's still heaps better than any of the alternative choices. |
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Oct 11 2005, 03:37 AM
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#78
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
*Wonders about when will Holostreets release SoLA's Bolivia*
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Oct 11 2005, 07:09 AM
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#79
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Wow. The guy sounds like a real tool. I'm glad we don't have anyone like that here in the United States! ;) |
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Oct 11 2005, 07:59 AM
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#80
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Johnnie-kins and Georgie-boy are very similar in many ways, and get on well together both politically and socially.
Personally, I think we could easily have it much worse. |
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Oct 11 2005, 09:01 AM
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#81
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Yes. We could have gotten Latham, or Beazley.
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Oct 11 2005, 10:34 AM
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#82
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, we should never forget that Hitler never won a contested election in his life. Hitler lost the election, but was allowed into the government as part of a power-sharing agreement to keep the Nazis from filibustering the democratic process. After that, it was a series of manuvers that would have made Richard III proud that elevated Hitler to the top. But no, he wasn't fairly elected. The leftists and moderates simply wussed out. They felt that confronting him wasn't worth upsetting the apple cart. Kind of like how Gore voluntarily allowed Bush to walk away with Florida in 2000. -Frank |
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Oct 11 2005, 10:53 AM
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#83
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
In fairness to Mr. Gore, he lost in a decision of the Supreme Court, which pretty much nipped in the bud any future legal angles for the advancement of his case. As embarassing as the whole thing was, its a tribute to the republican (small r) version of government, and the rule of law, that a country can have a heavily contested election end with a legal solution. (You can not like said legal solution if you want, but everyone has to agree, its preferable to tanks rolling into the streets.) |
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Oct 11 2005, 11:05 AM
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#84
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Oh yes, and indeed that's what pretty much everyone said in 2000 (including me). Of course, in hindsight... tanks are rolling in the streets. -Frank |
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Oct 11 2005, 11:11 AM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
Where do you live that tanks are rolling in the streets? |
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Oct 11 2005, 03:36 PM
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#86
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
iraq?
im guessing that the most armored one would see in the new orleans area would be APC's or whatever they call em these days :P |
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Oct 11 2005, 03:51 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
Neither (Iraq, nor New Orleans) have anything to do with civil conflict because two political parties can't agree on who won an election. Of course I recognize you're being some what facetious. :P
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Oct 11 2005, 06:08 PM
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#88
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and so i belive was the person im "replying" to...
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Oct 11 2005, 08:57 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
And this speaks to the diverse definitions, and qualities, of democracies. A democracy w/o inherent checks and balances simply cries out for instability. Talk all you want to the "fairness" of parliamentary Democracies, but never forget how Hitler came to power. |
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Nov 4 2005, 08:37 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Something that I have never been to sure about.
What exactly is the difference between socialism and communism? What were some of U.S.S.R.'s largest defining factors in the govements fall? What tyoe of things would have to change to make the Gov. last anouther 100 years into the Shadowrun universe? |
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Nov 4 2005, 08:49 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 6-August 03 From: Polish Ghetto Member No.: 5,342 |
Bob, check wiki
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Nov 4 2005, 11:13 PM
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#92
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ok so i got my history messed up about how hitler came to power. still, he got in without a military coup or anything of that sort.
btw, didnt sadam hussein get elected? |
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Nov 5 2005, 12:24 AM
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#93
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Well, he passed a series of emergency measures in response to a terrorist attack that he may well have known of in advance and subsequently used those emergency powers to crush desent. It is certainly "of that sort".
Hussein got elected repeatedly because he was the only candidate. You checked a box that said "Saddam" or people came to your house and beat you senseless. Now, Saddam's path to power is pretty convoluted. In 1958 he attempted to assassinate the prime minister of the country, failed, and fled the country. In 1963, the Baath party was in power and he returned to Iraq and married his cousin. But the Baath party was overthrown and he went to prison for the whole attempted assassination thing. The Baath party threw a coup five years later (they have a five year coup cycle apparently), and Saddam jostled his way up into the ruling revolutionary council when they sprung him from prison. He spent the next 11 years being Thug #1 for president-for-life Ahmed Hassan Bakr. In 1979, he became head of state and put all his rivals to death. In 1980 he received funds and weapons from the United States to go on an all-out sneak attack on Iran, which ended in miserable defeat. By 1990, the Bush administration was no longer funding him and began actively attempting to pull him out, which they abandoned as unprofitable at the end of Gulf War I when Hussein agreed to give cheap oil to the US. And the rest, is history.
Ask three socialists or communists, you'll get four answers. At least. Marx saw socialism as an early stage of worker-control in which people were paid according to work, with communism being an advanced state in which people were paid according to need. There's a lot of other stuff that goes hand in hand with that, but the basic difference is that in Socialism you earn your way with your labor, and in communism your labor for the collective is assumed and you get what you need. You can now sit back and watch the inevitable argument as to what constitutes "need" vs. "wants" and all that.
Ask three historians... Right. The U.S.S.R. ended WWII with the most f'ed up third of the world while the United States had the most economically developed and pristine 2/3 of the world. So ultimately it didn't really matter what they did, because they were in an economic competition with a stronger player who had deeper pockets, so that wasn't going anywhere good. Also there was the whole thing where if you kill enough people for not agreeing with you, eventually noone agrees with you.
If the United States had continued its alliance with the Soviet Union after WWII, the Soviet Union would still be alive today. Also, humanity as a whole would be about 30 years ahead in space technology and the nuclear club would have been much much smaller (possibly being just the U.S.A., the U.S.S.R., France, and China). With no cold war to destroy Latin America or Africa, there would be a lot less militarized zones. -Frank |
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Nov 5 2005, 09:23 AM
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#94
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Which reminds me, I need to stop by the mall and pick up my pre-order of Revenge of the Sith.
Anyway, I'm impressed that this thread has made it this far without anyone making a "In Soviet Russia, Shadowrunners double-cross their Mr. Johnson." joke. Also, has anyone noticed that certain communist ideals seem to be alive and well in the Open Source Software Movement? Not saying that it's a bad thing, I'm just saying it's there. |
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Nov 7 2005, 02:08 AM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
RunnerPaul, don't forget that communism as an economic model demands all property be the sovereign property of the "community"; usually administered by designated government representatives. The advantage of opensource is that it is voluntary, not state mandated compulsory. That is the key difference.
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Nov 7 2005, 01:03 PM
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#96
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Indeed. Open Source, if anything, is as democratic as they come.
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Nov 7 2005, 01:17 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
I have a serious objection to that statement Frank. the Termination of the alliance between the Soviet Union and the other allies was, if anything at the behest of the Soviet Union. I would point out such elements as the UK and US not protesting Stalin's installing his own Polish Government (when there was a legitimate exile government in London) as well as turning over anti-soviet partisans and others to a quick death in the Soviet Union, all which were done with the clear intent of keeping the Soviets Placated and "IN" with the whole "united nations". we can argue a realist perspective about a bi-polar power alignment or take the ideological angle that the Soviet and US systems were bound to come into conflict, but to say that "If the United States had continued its alliance with the Soviet Union after WWII, the Soviet Union would still be alive today" is simply not true. |
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Nov 7 2005, 02:35 PM
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#98
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
keep in mind that at the time, soviet union was stalin, and stalin was soviet union. ie, whatever me decreed was good for the union was good for the union, end of story.
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Nov 7 2005, 03:27 PM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
That's a true statement, but I don't see how it effects the issue. Stalin's successor famously said, "we will bury you," That seems to make it clear that antagonism between the two nations was systematic.
That isn't to say that it wasn't the same on the other side. No body was getting elected in the 50's and 60's in the US with "Commie's are People Too!" slogans. |
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Nov 7 2005, 04:47 PM
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#100
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
its incredible how things can reinforce itself in politics and social life.
basicly, by the time stalin was gone, it may well have become personal for the people of both sides. ie, trying to do anything about it quickly was like trying to turn a speeding bullet on a dime. the political and social G-force that any leader would have to face was basicly unsurvivable. |
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