 Horrors, Cycle of Magic and Immortal Elves..., Will they still exist? |
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 Jun 24 2005, 07:45 AM
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#76
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
right. like i said, though, if you can say that "Ares" is flooding the market with cheap firearms, you can also say that "Ares" has made major contributions to fighting bugs. you can also say that "Ares" is now experimenting with those bugs. it's hard to pin a megacorp down as good or bad; it's too complex an organism.
heh. same with GDs. dunk had a majority share in AZT for how long...? |
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Jun 24 2005, 10:52 AM
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#77
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
exactly my point. Besides, with an entity the size of a corp, it's very difficult to assign it a set personality, because of it's vast size, and the number of personalities that go into it, even if it is driven by a fe wkey people (like Damien Knight).
It's a little different with a dragon or IE. I think for the most part, you could ascribe a more or less 'neutra alingment' to them. It would be hard not too. After living for thousands of years, it can be pretty much assumed that they've done it all. Been the hero, been the villian, just stood aside and let things happen. It would be difficult to have the same way of approaching things over so many years. Like Harlequin, damn is he messed up. Always struck me as the sort that was just fed up with it all, and just about done with the idea of being alive, but not willing to end it. He seems the type that would have kild in cold blood and done horrible things at some point in his very long life, and nearly sacrificed all to save another, done great deeds, and also spent endless years just sitting by. And now is jsut caught in the absurdity of it all, has a very difficult time attaching to anything not as permanent as he is, because after so long, what's the point anymore? Dragon's much the same. Hard to say anything can be 'good' when you can be 'entree' to it. And dozens of others just like you probably have been at some point. Not too mention that they seem to have a natural tendancy and ability towards manipulation, and superior intellects to most around them . |
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Jun 24 2005, 12:00 PM
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#78
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
But it was always left out there floating as to why he had those shares. That it was likely a covert operation to keep an eye on them. Which is i think why i was uneasy with Dunk in SR. Then came his operatic death/rebirth that even further struck an odd cord for me. He was a [mostly] fantasy character in a non-fastasy setting. |
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Jun 24 2005, 01:13 PM
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#79
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
I always saw Harlequin as the fallen paladin/failed jedi, the one who - after the downturn in magic and the destruction of everything he knew and loved - basically said "screw it" and went out to make his own way in the world. And yes, he's almost certainly done some terrible things since then, and some great things also. Now the magic is back, and so is the threat from the horrors and the bugs and all the rest of it, and his conscience is starting to prick him. He doesn't want to be a hero; but the world may not give him a choice. |
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Jun 24 2005, 04:39 PM
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#80
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Why bring up jedi?I mean really they aren't anywhere close to heroes. They can't have emotions. That is noting like what I see the laughing man is or ever was.
Ares is a good AAA, if for no other reason than Aztlan is around. |
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Jun 25 2005, 08:25 AM
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#81
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I remember, back before the bugs, how the Universal Brotherhood seemed like the only bright spot in a selfish world.
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Jun 25 2005, 08:37 AM
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#82
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
That's how good and bad is supposed to be in SR--relative. Ares is good because Aztechnology is so bad and the two are opposed through their proxies. Shadowrunners are good because they are living a lifestyle that is outside of normal society which they see as wrong. Normal society is good because they have come together in a way that makes everyone comfortable with the rules. Neo anarchists see nothing wrong with capitalism just with the oligopoly created by the megacorporations. The corporations are right because they provide services and goods that people want and buy. The awakened are good because they are more in touch with all aspects of the world. The mundane are good because they can survive without the need for awakened powers. The amerind lifestyle is good because (for most tribes) they live in harmony with nature and magic. The other north american countries are good because they provide a decent standard of living for their citizens (on average) and allow for progress.
SR is not clearly devided into what is right and wrong. Fantasy is. Period. Frodo et al were good and Sauron was bad. Period. Lord Soth is evil and the Companions (or whoever) are good. Period. The Dark Side is evil and the Jedi are good. Period. None of the aforementioned bad guys are misunderstood or misguided (except for a few cases for dramatic purposes i.e. Darth Vader/Anakin). None of the aforementioned good guys are unjustified in their causes (except that they don't always go about it in the most efficient or equitable manner for dramatic purposes). There is light and dark. White and Black. Good and Bad. That is fantasy. SR is not fantasy. It is a massive grey area. The horrors are unmistakably evil and stopping them is good. It worked in ED which was a FANTASY setting but it doesn't fit well in SR. Sure the sevants of horrors were probably misguided in ED but that didn't stop the good guys from hacking them to pieces unless given another alternative. In SR someone who is helping and being helped by the horrors is more murky because the definition of good and evil is relative and subjective to the individual percieving the actions/results. Unless of course you decide to play fantasy style in which case don't feel guilty for blowing away that corp stooge who has a wife and two kids and a family that loves him/her and depends on the income stream. Feel free to blow up buildings and commit various acts of terror without any guilty feeling because you are fully justified within the black and white setting your group has set up. |
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Jun 25 2005, 10:32 AM
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#83
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Just to digress slightly - to be quite specific, Jedi are supposed to refrain from allowing their emotions to govern their actions. They're quite capable of having them. It's okay for a jedi to feel love, happiness, even anger - it's when they act on those emotions alone that their stability within the Force is compromised ("I killed them. I killed them all". Which for some reason seems to cement Amidala's affection for the spoiled, egotistical arrogant little turd. Go figure). The "failed jedi" reference, however, was very specifically referring to the archetype from the old (and imho superior, but that's a different kettle of fish) WEG system, and I apologise that the reference was too obscure. |
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Jun 25 2005, 10:46 AM
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#84
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
You can only be idealistic for so long. Most people burn out after 2, maybe 3, years. Harley managed it, by all accounts, for a couple millenia. That's not too shabby, all things considered.
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Jun 25 2005, 11:32 AM
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#85
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Burned out, that's exactly the phrase I was looking for. It's almost a stereotype of pulp literature; the burned out hero who doesn't want to be a hero any more, but whom the world simply will not allow to roll over and give up. |
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Jun 25 2005, 02:25 PM
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#86
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
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Jun 25 2005, 02:32 PM
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#87
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Er -- what? Fantasy is no more inherently moralistic than any genre. Inherently mythic, definitely: but inherently black/white good/evil, no. The examples given are all examples of Christianised fantasy -- Tolkein is considered one of the great Christian commentators of the 20th C, and LotR is commonly interpreted as a Christian fantasy -- and yes, Lucas too: try comparing his work to actual Zen or Tao, and you quickly run into problems precisely because of this attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. But there are traditions in fantasy other than the Christian. Ever read Mary Stewart's or Marion Zimmer Bradley's take on the Arthur legends? (Edit to add a few more non-black/white fantasy authors -- Ursula K Leguin, Barbara Hambly, Peter Beagle, Orson Scott Card, Michael Moorcock, Lord Dunsany ... heck, most fantasy touching on the essence of elves/underworld/otherworlds.) Edit: Dr Jest has already covered what I would have said re Jedi. Call it the difference between acting with passion and acting from passion: do you control your actions, or do your emotions? |
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Jun 25 2005, 03:22 PM
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#88
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
And the religions have morals down square. That is why no christian ever does anything bad. 'Cause they know better. Morals and religion are not the same thing. Not even close. You dopn't need one with the toehr,and some times they go better wtihout each other. By the way, most Christian stories are basicly remixes or covers of stories that came before them. Most of those relions were by no means moral. At least moral in anyway close to what we would call it.
No this not saying that the Cult of Jesus is a bad thing. It is saying that they don't own the highest ground on the moral subject. That does the same for any religion. Hell, that goes for evry gruop of people or ideals. I called Christiany the Cult of Jesus, but one should be treated as one treats others. |
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Jun 25 2005, 09:29 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
Funny, I always figured shadowrun as Fantasy with cyberpunk elements. Perhaps it is neither fantasy nor cyberpunk, but both. It has elements of both and I dont think we should be upset over the presence of one or the other, because it is both of them that make SR what I love. |
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Jun 26 2005, 09:50 AM
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#90
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Good Lord, someone quoting an author list I've read almost all of for a change :) Hey Talia, you know they're re-filming Beagle's Last Unicorn? |
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Jul 1 2005, 09:06 AM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Metroplex Member No.: 217 |
The Immortal Elves should be kept. They're part of the basic history of SR from before ED, Horrors, etc. Immortal Elves were part of the original Secrets of Power Trilogy and the original Harlequin campaign book before any of that was added.
IEs make excellent masterminds. Immortal, Sinister... and they are because they're immortal but not all powerful (Something Great Dragons annoy me for). IEs have powerful magic (too powerful under SR2.. luckily toned down) but physically are just like you and me. I hope they're kept and brought closer to traditional folklore for the Fae, Tuatha de Danann and legends that inspired them. The horrors and ED connections should remain entirely optional. |
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Jul 1 2005, 09:16 AM
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#92
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That was one thing I wasn't fond of Dragons of the Sixth World for—namely, strongly implying that one of the Great Dragons (I forget the name) who was by previous canon killed by a German border patrol, had actually survived. The death of a comparatively unprepared Great to a band of properly-armed folk had previously been a wonderful lesson in "no one lives forever", but that appears to have been pretty much cast aside.
~J |
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Jul 1 2005, 10:46 AM
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#93
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
As far as we know Feuerschwinge was shot down and killed by German army attack copters. However she was slightly insane and wounded already.
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Jul 2 2005, 12:06 AM
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#94
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
But you don't need an overarching "Good" group being threatened by evil. You just need one person. Saving an impoverished single mother from being ravaged by a gang as she tried to take groceries home to her kids is a great low-level heroic encounter in SR. Saving an impoverished single mother from being ravaged by brigands as she tries to take groceries home to her children is a great low-level heroic encounter in D&D. By the same token, ravaging an impoverished single mother as she tries to take groceries home to her children is a great low-level evil encounter in both systems. And how is committing crimes for money not fantasy? The standard dungeon crawl is essentially an elaborate B&E job. Lets not forget the whole thief class and stories that revolve around the profession. Frito the Thief and Goben that Barbarian are hired by a mysterious man to break into a vampire's mansion and steal random Ubermagic Artifact #127. Of course, they take the job. That they can keep anything they find that is not Ubermagic Artifact #127 is implied in the agreement. A Mysterious Johnson hires Fritz the Covert Op and Gill the Sammie to break into a vampire's mansion and steal random Ubermagic Artifact #17. Of course, they take the job. That they can loot anything that is not Ubermagic Artifact #17 is implied in the agreement. How are these scenarios different? Other than the fact that one is a D&D scenario and the other is an SR scenario I see little distinction. Heck, one could easily compare extraterritorial facilities to sovereign castle-states. Want to inject a moral dilemma into the most epic high fantasy? Here is a good one. The party spends the entire campaign tracking down an "evil" wizard who wants to destroy the world. Along the way they learn that Buddha was right. Existence is suffering. The Wizard they are tracking came to understand this and sought a way to end suffering for good. So, he found a magic ritual that would destroy the world but allow all souls to ascend to a Nirvana-like oneness with the universe. The Party can choose to complete the ritual and be the worst mass-murders in history, taking away the joys of existence as well as the suffering. Or, the can choose to kill the Wizard and destroy his knowledge along with him, dooming all souls to a never-ending cycle of suffering and reincarnation. Of course, there is a difference between high-fantasy and sword and sorcery. Most, if not all, high-fantasy is sword and sorcery. However, not all sword and sorcery is high fantasy. Sword and sorcery can easily have dirt and grit. It can easily have moral dilemmas. It can have the good guys lose and the bad guys win and not be an over-the-top evil campaign. Sword and Sorcery can have rival nations fighting each other for the reasons that real nations fight each other. Look at the Iliad. It is a fantasy story. It has people with swords killing each other. It has nigh-invincible demi-god. It has deities butting in at every turn. Troy isn't the slightest bit evil. If anything, It is more noble that the Achaeans' Alliance. Look at Achilles. He is a Mercenary with a Vindictive flaw the size of Wisconsin and about a million points worth of Combat Monster. He refuses to fight throughout most of the story because his Johnson screwed him out of his slave girl. He finally takes to the battlefield because of his anger over he death of his friend. He slaughters the Trojans left and right and he goes so far as to desecrate their bodies to make their afterlives more unpleasant. Of course, Achilles doesn't have to be perfect because Troy isn't a story about the triumph is good or righteousness. It is about human triumph, which is what good SR games should be about, as well. Achilles dies before the war is over but, despite his flaws, he succeeded in redefining "Good" and "righteousness" for future generations. His story as told by Homer marks a turning point in the whole of Western civilization. It is at this point that the Heroic Code (Kill or be killed in glorious battle -blah, blah, blah) begins to slowly decline in favor of intellectual humanism. Perhaps, centuries in the future, the story of how some runner overcame his Vindictive flaw will inspire a new way of thought just as with Achilles. Of course, there is nothing wrong with mass-murdering super-powered runners either. It depends on your taste. More epic sourcebooks are produced than low-level sourcebooks are produced because epic sells. Anyone can throw together a band of thugs for your weak characters to take on. In any game world there are millions of them. After a while they all start to blur together. The epic metaplot stories, that is what makes the world stand it. That is what makes the reality distinctive. That is what most people pay for. -------- I would disagree that the Horrors are fantasy. The Horrors are Horror. Like all good monsters they are forces of nature. Morality doesn't really apply to them any more than it would to a wild Lion or an Earthquake. Of course, one doesn't have any pity for an Earthquake and most people would stop them if it were in their power. However, it isn't in anyone's power, not really. That is what makes them so scary. I don't think bringing the Horrors through is the best idea. Surviving Horror Construct, on the other hand, are nice to have around. For pure creepiness value one could use that woman who was granted immortality but not eternal youth. She must be very bitter by now. For the scary ubbermonsters nothing beats Verjigorm's pet dragons. Many would have been killed in the fourth world, more still would have been slain by downcycle hunting. However, a few Adults would have survived - and maybe a Great or two. Have the runners be hired by a mysterious Johnson to guard the lair of a dragon who has not yet awaken from slumber. The Johnson speaks of a benefactor who wants the dragon to be in his debt and knows that there will be hunters after the sleeping beast to chop up for telesma. The pay is high and a hefty bonus will be paid for every hunter killed. The runners will have a tough time beating back the hunters, who turn out of be working for the Draco Foundation if anyone checks. After beating back or killed the hunters, the Dragon awakens and appears before the PC's eyes. It is a horrific beast with seven glowing eyes and seven tattered wings. Its scales are a mottles mix of hues so foul that none are recognizable from rainbow or palate save a few specks of puke green. Every inch of it's massive body drips nauseating icor. It chows down on some hunters or their corpses and then takes to the sky. It vanishes after that. It makes its aura as best as it can and attempts to blend in as a human. It lays low as it gathers a ritual group of the power-hungry and the foolish - A renaming group. Suddenly, "Seattle" becomes "Stinking vomit-soaked pile of dung-stuffed skunk corpses" with the aesthetics to match (Not that there would be a noticeable difference). An entire campaign could center around killing this Corrupted Great Dragon. It is a big task, almost epic. But, it is an assassination mission at heart. No threat from other Horrors, just from this monstrosity. For something less extreme those Obsidimen who were consumed by Ristul at the point where it physically entered the world could begin to wake up. Edited for spelling |
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Jul 2 2005, 04:15 AM
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#95
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
*sniffle*
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Jul 2 2005, 04:53 AM
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#96
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Sorry, I broke down at "neigh-invincible demi-god." :rotfl:
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Jul 2 2005, 05:45 AM
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#97
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not saying you can't easily throw out variations on standard fantasy or standard cyberpunk. i'm saying that cyberpunk and fantasy, as overarching genres, have themes that are standard for those genres, and that any variations on them are variations. the standard fantasy story is about good guys fighting bad guys. does that mean every fantasy story has to have clearly-delineated good guys and bad guys? no. but it means that a fantasy story which lacks those can be considered non-standard.
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Jul 2 2005, 06:57 AM
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#98
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Guys, forgive that person's spelling... he has a point.
Also if Fantasy is good v evil.... ED is not fantasy In way of the Adept (a lovely Earthdawn sourcebook) has in the Nethermancer section the idea that (meta)humanity is significantly more evil than the horrors... after all They must create suffering to survive, while we do it for fun and profit. |
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Jul 2 2005, 07:32 AM
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#99
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Yes but with the horrors it's universal. Not so with metahumanity/namegivers. Sure everyone does bad stuff occasionally, but certainly the majority don't do what would qualify as "create[ing] suffering". But one of the things I do definitely like about ED in general, and of course SR, is the lack of anything like alingment. Even the Lightbearers don't really have any code about helping 'damsels in distress' and all that crap. It's more subjective, like real life. Gray areas. Makes it much more interesting.
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Jul 2 2005, 08:36 AM
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#100
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Way to pay attention.
Now, if you really think Earthdawn is "standard fantasy," you just don't know what you're talking about. Is it fantasy? Yes. Is it any sort of default fantasy setting? Not by a longshot. |
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