De-gaying camp rescue - Dumpshock Forums

De-gaying camp rescue, idea for a run

Jrayjoker View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 03:40 PM Post #51
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675	Not necessary This post has been edited by Jrayjoker: Jun 21 2005, 05:46 PM

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 03:53 PM Post #52
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	the non-fundies here have greater ability to resist.

Jrayjoker View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 03:53 PM Post #53
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675	True, but for how long?

Garland

Jun 21 2005, 03:55 PM

Post #54

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Jrayjoker)

Is it just me, or is the current political situation in the USA trending toward a fundamentalist religious regime? How is that different than a fundamentalist regime in a mostly islamic country?

Can we keep the political chicken little bulldrek on forums that are built for it? Please?

Jrayjoker View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 03:56 PM Post #55
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675	Not constructive This post has been edited by Jrayjoker: Jun 21 2005, 05:47 PM

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:00 PM Post #56
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	you can't look at one president and say "oh noes!". i mean, look at Clinton--he made some not-indecent headway in religious tolerance. then, the pendulum swung back the other way, and we get Bush. maybe the next president will start the pendulum swinging back the other way, maybe it'll be the president after that. yes, it's a danger, and it's something that needs to be kept in mind. but the pendulum has swung in this direction before, and it's swung much further in this direction in the past (McCarthy? Japanese interrment camps?) than where it's at now.

hermit

Jun 21 2005, 04:08 PM

Post #57

The King In Yellow

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QUOTE

becasuse I'm the top of the food chain and they need to be remined of that?

And I assume you remind dragons of that, too? ;)

QUOTE

That's just not true. I went through Marine Corps boot camp and I'm still the same person I was before. To compare boot camp and the de-gaying camp is ignorant and is over-generalizing. Yes, there are USMC recruits that take it waaaay too far and drop off the deep end, but boot camp itself is nothing like this religious gulag. The purpose is to teach and train, not re-educate. I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs, but there really IS a big difference.

I am not equating USMC training and a religious gulag like this. What I was saying was that the USMC uses some techniques this camp abuses, and being sent to the USMC - in my knowledge - is a viable option in the US penal system, meaning you can be sentenced to do that (or rather, opt to join the force instead of doing time in jail) for some crimes.

And that leads to more acceptance for gulag-stlye camps, like this one (or a couple of others the US government operates) with the US public.

QUOTE

I also grew up Mormon and they ARE guilty of brainwashing.

Yup. I dated a Mormon once (briefly), and the poor girl was a mental wreck from what they did to her.

QUOTE

boot camp doesn't play any part in the US penal system that i'm aware of.

I am not talking about Army boot camp (though, for all I know, joining the army can be considered instead of doing time in jail), but about such camps. Click here for another view on them. And these camps DO play a part in US penal system. Also, they're used by parents to have their 'troubled' teens 'straightened out'.

And as such institutions are accepted in large parts of US society, "de-gaying camps" and religious brainwash camps can slip through the cracks.

QUOTE

Degaying camps are perhaps the polar opposite of my view/practice/faith as a Christian. Am I angered by the mere concept? Yes. But it makes me sad more than anything.

Well, it's not only christian sects (and related, like Mormons) who're guilty of this. Scientology is no better.

QUOTE

the non-fundies here have greater ability to resist.

Wish I had your faith in them.

Jrayjoker View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:20 PM Post #58
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675	Nope, nothing constructive here. This post has been edited by Jrayjoker: Jun 21 2005, 05:49 PM

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:24 PM Post #59
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	we ~~sang~~ shouted manfully at the tops of our lungs a lot of cadences about "go to war or go to jail", in basic, but i don't know of anybody who ever actually had that option while i was in.

Jrayjoker View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:27 PM Post #60
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675	Meaningless, troll-like behavior removed. This post has been edited by Jrayjoker: Jun 21 2005, 05:52 PM

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:26 PM Post #61
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Any thoughts as to whether these camps would be more or less common in the 2050s/60s? It certainly seems like many areas they'd be trivial to set up, and all it takes is a single fundamentalist AA and they're on solid legal ground too, but it seems to me that religion has lost a lot of strength in Shadowrun. Then again, this may be in no small part due to an attempt by the writers to avoid getting their asses sued off by reflecting the amount of stupidity that goes on on all sides. ~J

hermit View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:26 PM Post #62
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121	Then maybe it is rare or out dated, I guess.

hyzmarca

Jun 21 2005, 04:31 PM

Post #63

Midnight Toker

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QUOTE (Critias)

Yup. Nothing says "moral high ground like "premeditated mass murder."

Its not a matter of complete moral highground so much as high moral ends no matter the means.

The people who run these camps and send their children there believe that the ends do justify the means. It is a lesser evil for a greater good in their minds.

They are right to some extent. If this was a de-raping camp for rapists and child molesters on parole most people would agree that their methods don't do far enough.

What really gets us upset is the fact that their ends are completely and totaly wrong. They are taking away someone natural rights and freedoms for no other reason than hatred and intollerance.

Stoping them is a good end. If the ends justify the means on a morally then stoping them with violence is good if there is no better way.

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:33 PM Post #64
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	I imagine the corporate version is quite well spread. Think about it. You're a midlevel executive at <insert megacorp here>, and you have a rebellious youth who seems to be romancing up visions of people like FastJack and Captain Chaos, and who hates you. You're not important enough to have your son have a visit with some psychotropic IC designed to fix him in a jiffy, but not to fear, your corp has it's midlevel men covered in the removal of parental responsibilities department, too! Jr. and Mary Sue gaying it up with their own gender, and you don't like it? Maybe they're romancing CRIMINALS, and doing their best to avoid an honest day's work, like you? Well, no problem. Send 'em on down to Company Camp! In a few weeks to a few months, tops, they'll be hardworking wage slaves like you, and any other ajustments you want made can be arranged, at a bit of a fee, of course. And due to Extraterritoriality, it's all 100% legal. And I'm sure the religions can still come up with a few of these.

hermit

Jun 21 2005, 04:35 PM

Post #65

The King In Yellow

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QUOTE

Any thoughts as to whether these camps would be more or less common in the 2050s/60s? It certainly seems like many areas they'd be trivial to set up, and all it takes is a single fundamentalist AA and they're on solid legal ground too, but it seems to me that religion has lost a lot of strength in Shadowrun. Then again, this may be in no small part due to an attempt by the writers to avoid getting their asses sued off by reflecting the amount of stupidity that goes on on all sides.

Now,this is something that has puzzled me about the Shadowrun setting (particularily in NA) for a long time.

Why is it that, even when magic starts working again and spirits that, for what it's worth, are god-like in power to puny mortals, make their presence known, and abiout 5% of all priests statistically can pull Angels out of thin air to impress the faithful, that religion has lost ground? It's pretty easy to be an atheist if there's no tangible proof of the supernatural. It's pretty damn hard (I imagine) if that evangelical nut job can pull an arcangel out of his ass (assuming he's following a shamanic path, rather than a hermetic) to raid places of sin. I really think religion should be more, not less, prominent in society, all over the world, with the awakening and everything.

Anyway, such camps should be much easier to set up. North America is fragmented, the Us has broken up into some ten smaller, poorer, less organised states. Some areas are next to anarchic (CalFree, parts of the UCAs and CAS, Carribean League). I also would expect a strong survivalist/wagon fort mentality in those anglo reservations, which could well lead to such camps to straighten out kids who step out of line - survivalist communisties under siege are hardly fair and tolerant.

EDIT: Though it just occurred to me that they needn't use crude techniques on par with a boot camp. All they really need is a decent psychotropic Black Ice. I mean, Deus did it, didn't he?

Arethusa

Jun 21 2005, 04:33 PM

Post #66

Runner

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QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 21 2005, 12:24 PM)

we ~~sang~~ shouted manfully at the tops of our lungs a lot of cadences about "go to war or go to jail", in basic, but i don't know of anybody who ever actually had that option while i was in.

I don't believe it's very common and I'm not familiar with the laws that deal with it, but it has happened at least a few times. One of the rangers who fought and died in Mogadishu originally joined when he was given a choice between the Army and jail.

[edit]

Though maybe going to war instead of going to jail was more in reference to draft dodging?

This post has been edited by Arethusa: Jun 21 2005, 04:36 PM

Modesitt

Jun 21 2005, 04:51 PM

Post #67

Moving Target

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QUOTE

being sent to the USMC - in my knowledge - is a viable option in the US penal system, meaning you can be sentenced to do that (or rather, opt to join the force instead of doing time in jail) for some crimes.

Judges can and have ordered people to do a lot of strange things as a part of their sentencing. For example, I remember one case where a judge ordered a juvenile delinquent who was citing the harshness of his life being why he did what he did to spend a day with a disabled man. This particular man had no arms or legs, but wrestled competitively.

Have people been told in the past to join the military or go to jail? Yes. It wasn't unknown in Korea or Vietnam. However, three of the services(Army, Air Froce, and Marines) now have have explicit statements in their recruiting standards that say they CANNOT accept such applicants. The fouth one(Navy) lacks an explicit statement in their recruiting manual about accepting people sentenced to join the military, but unofficially Navy recruiters would never accept those people.

The military has MUCH higher standards than it did in the past.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:54 PM Post #68
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	We'll see how well these high standards hold up after a couple more years of Vietnam II: Iraq.

Jrayjoker View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:56 PM Post #69
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675	Not for long if things keep up the way they are. Trolling edited out. Its not constructive in any way, shape, or form. This post has been edited by Jrayjoker: Jun 21 2005, 05:53 PM

Jrayjoker View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 04:56 PM Post #70
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675	Bad joker, no doughnut! This post has been edited by Jrayjoker: Jun 21 2005, 05:51 PM

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 05:06 PM Post #71
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	The problem with the primary religions in Shadowrun is that they are all monothestic, and all of them tout that no one shall hold anything above God Almighty. And yet there's Shamans of everything from Gator to Toaster (It's in the SSG,) to prove Him wrong. They're holding something above Him, and they get rewarded. While the Christians can still produce... Nothing? No flaming swords, no Gardens of Eden, no plauges 'pon the land to smite teh wicked... I imagine that the pagan religions had a bit of an upsurge, especially with real Shamans leading. Then again, I doubt many of the Totems are evangelical; what do they give a hoot if the unAwakened pray to them or not? So really, the only thing that the monotheistic religions have going for them are shysters and hucksters and frauds, and the real Shamans and Hermetic Mages can easily disprove them - after all, it's hard to say that your God is the only God when they find a totem of Rat behind your cross.

hyzmarca

Jun 21 2005, 05:06 PM

Post #72

Midnight Toker

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Any thoughts as to whether these camps would be more or less common in the 2050s/60s? It certainly seems like many areas they'd be trivial to set up, and all it takes is a single fundamentalist AA and they're on solid legal ground too, but it seems to me that religion has lost a lot of strength in Shadowrun. Then again, this may be in no small part due to an attempt by the writers to avoid getting their asses sued off by reflecting the amount of stupidity that goes on on all sides.

~J

Today, many of these camps are set up outside of the US in countries that have more lienent, ineffective, or bribable governemnts. These camps are the ones that are the most abusive. Often, they hire guards from the local populations and don't give them any sort of training. There is much physical abuse and often sexual abuse and rape.

However, it must be said that there are some good youth rehabilitiation camps out there. These are the ones that have trained and certified staff along with an airtight system of oversight. They are much fewer than the bad ones.

They shouldn't be too uncommon. However, these camps appeal to people who live a high lifestyle. The costs of sending someone to one is pretty high, so they won't have many clients. Corps would handle their own. Freelance camps would be around for people who are still citizens of an actual country.

However, it should be pointed out that personafixes are both cheaper and safer than camps. Any actuary will point this out. The only problem with personafixes is that parents would be reluctant to have their children's brains scrambeled. Camps seem like a friendlier alternative and actually can be if they are handeled correctly.
Corps should have no compunctions about using personafixes on uppity wageslaves, however.

hermit

Jun 21 2005, 05:08 PM

Post #73

The King In Yellow

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QUOTE

The military has MUCH higher standards than it did in the past.

In a perfect world, that woudl be true. However, as people are apparently less keen on joining the army if that'll mean they'll be sent off into a faraway desert land where they get their limbs blown off while fighting a war they don't really think makes sense in the first place, the army simply cannot afford such high standards any more. So says the NY Times.

Lenice Hawk View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 05:15 PM Post #74
Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,738	Oh get over it. This is a shadowrun forum, started to ask a question about a run. If someone wants to try and keep the political rabbit trails out of it, they have every right to do so. Especially since it is unlikely to make any change (IE Democrat/Republican or Pro/Anti War) in peoples views. Unfortunately, these camps do exist. People take good things or even mediocre things and make them nutso. If I were running or on this run, I'd want to do enough killing and destruction to make sure this camp couldn't restart.

Lenice Hawk View Member Profile	Jun 21 2005, 05:16 PM Post #75
Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,738	Yes, and the NY times is incredibly credible. Who was that reporter who forged his stories for years, and they never figured it out? Oh, and two "anonymous" sources were proven to be false...Good rule for SR: Know your sources.

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