IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 5 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Taking another look at LoneStar, So, you think you got away...
Kagetenshi
post Jun 22 2005, 06:57 PM
Post #51


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,011
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Even if you aren't touching a single LS employee, not even dealing Stun damage but slipping by them totally unnoticed, you're still doing harm to Lone Star. You're making the 'Star lose face and possibly contracts, and you're making L-S employees lose jobs. As a Shadowrunner, you are a pain in the ass for L-S any way you slice it (save being a company man for them).

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
shadow_scholar
post Jun 22 2005, 07:08 PM
Post #52


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 139
Joined: 6-February 05
Member No.: 7,059



QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 22 2005, 01:39 PM)
Do you make cops get paid meaningfully more than janitors? 'Cause they don't in canon.

~J

I suppose I do. I have a rough idea of what cops get paid today, and it isn't a janitorial salary, so I base my game on that. Cops in Austin need to have at least 2 years of college under their belt before they can even apply, so they're automatically gonna get paid more than janitors. Granted, the SR world isn't the same as this one, but the underlying need to feel safe for most people isn't going to go away. If a cop force doesn't deliver on that "safe" feeling, they're gonna get someone who can, and spend a little more cash to do it. My world has a lot more underworld dealing going on rather than over the top shootouts in the streets, much like the world today (at least where I live). Besides, I'm basing my cop salaries on the place where Lonestar has its corporate headquarters, okay, it might not be the same thing, but close enough for this GM.

As for the security guards, even small corporations have live guards, but from what I understand they don't tend to be cops. There are tons of security guard companies who get paid crap wages to sit around and watch monitors and make rounds, and they're not cops, just guys who want easy jobs. Off duty cops do take security jobs, but those are jobs in more public venues where they wear their official uniforms are they are visible enough to be used as a deterrent, like guarding movie theaters or sporting events.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 22 2005, 07:11 PM
Post #53


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



There's a world of difference between killing lots of them and causing them to lose big contracts (which would be necessary to trigger such a raid), and hospitalizing a few of them and causing them to lose a bit of respect. In any case, no matter how much I cared about "turf", whose ever it is, I would not personally commit physical force into protecting it against an organization which can muster a few thousand times more of force. Shadowrunners would likely find an intel war much less risky, if not necessarily much more productive.

Maybe this comes down to the culture we've grown up in IRL. Where I come from, considering gangs and even organized crime to be a real physical threat to LE is laughable at best. No matter how dystopian I try to see the future as, I just cannot see LEOs becoming worthless, easily scared scum while gangs become all-powerful, highly-trained and motivated para-military forces.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jun 22 2005, 07:11 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Jun 22 2005, 07:13 PM
Post #54


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



All I can say is it looks like about five different conversations are going on between three or maybe four different people. You just all think you're actually quoting and disagreeing with and talking to one another -- because it's obvious that different people are talking about wholly different things. We've got one guy espousing artillery strikes, another preaching about panzers strafing Lone Star SWAT teams or something, another about precise overwhelming raids on a single known target, another about Lone Star "taking over" all of the Barrens in one big bite, blah blah blah.

I'm fairly certain no two people are having the same discussion or dealing with the same half-assed topic any more.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 22 2005, 07:13 PM
Post #55


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



QUOTE (Critias)
another about precise overwhelming raids on a single known target

I can only hope that guy's me. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cynic project
post Jun 22 2005, 07:14 PM
Post #56


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,032
Joined: 6-August 04
Member No.: 6,543



One thing I am noticing about this thread is how many people think shadowrun takes place in place in the US of fucking A. The fact is this, the USA and UCAS aren't the same thing. Lone star and your local PD aren't the same thing.

Look at say the mob war in itally. We are talking about places where judges have private security guards on the scales that would boggle your mind and they are still killed.

Think of Seattle like Columbia in the 80's. Or how Sou Paulo or Rio are. The parts of town that are meant to look nice, look nice but the rest can go to hell in a hand basket. It is a dystopic future. If the lone star had the resources to easily win that kind of war, they would have done it a long time ago.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nezumi
post Jun 22 2005, 07:25 PM
Post #57


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,546
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760



The thing that surprises me is anyone assumes the star would take on any sort of operation they have months to prepare for, and not use overwhelming force.

If they are going to make a raid into a Z zone, they're not going in with five city masters and a wasp. They're going in with tanks, helicopters, satellites, lasers a few kliks away, gas, and magic up the ying yang. They'll send in elementals beforehand and drones the size of a booger to map out the entire place and every enemy in there, and when they go in, you won't have time to pull your pants up, much less grab, load and prep your gun.

If they're going to make a major, multi-million nuyen strike with media coverage, they're going to do it right. It's not something they can afford to do often, and it's certainly not something you want to be around if it happens. There are too many careers on the line for them to use anything less than absolutely overwhelming firepower.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
shadow_scholar
post Jun 22 2005, 07:31 PM
Post #58


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 139
Joined: 6-February 05
Member No.: 7,059



QUOTE (Cynic project)
One thing I am noticing about this thread is how many people think shadowrun takes place in place in the US of fucking A. The fact is this, the USA and UCAS aren't the same thing. Lone star and your local PD aren't the same thing.

Look at say the mob war in itally. We are talking about places where judges have private security guards on the scales that would boggle your mind and they are still killed.

Think of Seattle like Columbia in the 80's. Or how Sou Paulo or Rio are. The parts of town that are meant to look nice, look nice but the rest can go to hell in a hand basket. It is a dystopic future. If the lone star had the resources to easily win that kind of war, they would have done it a long time ago.

I don't believe that. People drive the country, not matter what country it is. People in the U.S.A. aren't suddenly going to change the way they feel overnight when it becomes the U.C.A.S. Americans have a standard of living, and when the government doesn't provide that standard they're either gonna live under the new standard (some will), go somewhere else where the standard is good enough for them, or create that standard. Why do you think so many people come to the U.S.A. now and have in the past? If they can do it, people are going to go where they feel safe, they always have and they always will. Security and survivability is a huge instinct that can't be tossed out so easily. I tend to think of Shadowrun less as being a dystopic future (a very 80s concept) and more like a realistic future one (well, as realistic as you can get with dragons and elves running around).

Now I'm not saying crime won't be existent, it just won't be super violent. People will allow a lot, but gunfights with gangers gunning down moronic police officers outside their front door isn't one of them. They'd be in an uprage and pay those extra taxes to feel safe.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Req
post Jun 22 2005, 07:33 PM
Post #59


Avatar of Mediocrity
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 725
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS)
Member No.: 277



QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
shadow_scholar: Beslan was a massive hostage situation which went completely haywire and the military went in without much of a plan -- I don't want to know where you heard about the Russians laying "waste to that place and the hostages". I wouldn't blame you for using some features of Waco (the media leakage and coverage bits in particular) if you play out an LS "intervention" into the barrens in your game, however.

Maybe confusing the Beslan school thing with the Moscow theater gassing a couple years back?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cynic project
post Jun 22 2005, 08:42 PM
Post #60


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,032
Joined: 6-August 04
Member No.: 6,543



QUOTE (shadow_scholar)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jun 22 2005, 02:14 PM)
One thing I am noticing about this thread is how many people think shadowrun takes place in place in the US of fucking A. The fact is this, the USA and UCAS aren't the same thing. Lone star and your local PD aren't the same thing.

Look at say the mob war in itally. We are talking about places where judges have private security guards on the scales that would boggle your mind and they are still killed.

Think of Seattle like Columbia in the 80's. Or how Sou Paulo or Rio are. The parts of town that are meant to look nice, look nice but the rest can go to hell in a hand basket. It is a dystopic future.  If the lone star had the resources to easily win that kind of war, they would have done it a long time ago.

I don't believe that. People drive the country, not matter what country it is. People in the U.S.A. aren't suddenly going to change the way they feel overnight when it becomes the U.C.A.S. Americans have a standard of living, and when the government doesn't provide that standard they're either gonna live under the new standard (some will), go somewhere else where the standard is good enough for them, or create that standard. Why do you think so many people come to the U.S.A. now and have in the past? If they can do it, people are going to go where they feel safe, they always have and they always will. Security and survivability is a huge instinct that can't be tossed out so easily. I tend to think of Shadowrun less as being a dystopic future (a very 80s concept) and more like a realistic future one (well, as realistic as you can get with dragons and elves running around).

Now I'm not saying crime won't be existent, it just won't be super violent. People will allow a lot, but gunfights with gangers gunning down moronic police officers outside their front door isn't one of them. They'd be in an uprage and pay those extra taxes to feel safe.

Maybe you don't get it, we are talking about the US with unemployment in the 30% range here. We are talking about the US that gives cooperations the right to have sogernity with the boarders of their land. We are talking about the US that has lost more than two thirds it land, and at least 80 of it's money. We are talking about a US so poor that it had tens of thousands of veterans march on DC because the UCAs couldn't pay what they owed them. We are talking about a nation that is at best a shadow of it's former glory.

You want to see what life is going to be like in the UCAS go to Moscow. In the US we have the highest crime rate in the world, and we don't really even care. We have 5% of the world people and 25% of the world presioners. This is when we have the world's best economy and unemployment around 7-9%. You want to see crazy ass shit? Come to the US, and you will see it, we have things this way because we can and litarily piss money away. We spend more money person on cops, prisons and all that shit than any other country in the world. Still we have more crime? So do you really think with less ethical cops and less money we would even look remotely have the same sort of crime?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nezumi
post Jun 22 2005, 08:55 PM
Post #61


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,546
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760



QUOTE (Cynic project)
we can and litarily piss money away.

Yeouch, that must hurt. Paper or coins? Because I imagine paper would be only marginally better.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Jun 22 2005, 09:40 PM
Post #62


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,011
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



QUOTE (nezumi)
If they are going to make a raid into a Z zone, they're not going in with five city masters and a wasp. They're going in with tanks, helicopters, satellites, lasers a few kliks away, gas, and magic up the ying yang. They'll send in elementals beforehand and drones the size of a booger to map out the entire place and every enemy in there, and when they go in, you won't have time to pull your pants up, much less grab, load and prep your gun.

If they're going to make a major, multi-million nuyen strike with media coverage, they're going to do it right. It's not something they can afford to do often, and it's certainly not something you want to be around if it happens. There are too many careers on the line for them to use anything less than absolutely overwhelming firepower.

It's not something they can afford to do period. If they could do it, they'd have done it already. I find it hard to imagine anything that doesn't involve large parts of downtown blowing up will put any more egg on Lone Star's collective face than the fact that two large parts of the city are completely abandoned to the criminals and dregs of society. Not only that, but major highways go abandoned to go-gangers at night. These people do not have the resources or control to mount that kind of strike.
QUOTE
People in the U.S.A. aren't suddenly going to change the way they feel overnight when it becomes the U.C.A.S. Americans have a standard of living, and when the government doesn't provide that standard they're either gonna live under the new standard (some will), go somewhere else where the standard is good enough for them, or create that standard.

May I remind you that this is the world that was having food riots in major cities in the 90s?


~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
shadow_scholar
post Jun 22 2005, 09:43 PM
Post #63


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 139
Joined: 6-February 05
Member No.: 7,059



QUOTE (Cynic project)
Maybe you don't get it, we are talking about the US with unemployment in the 30% range here. We are talking about the US that gives cooperations the right to have sogernity with the boarders of their land. We are talking about the US that has lost more than two thirds it land, and at least 80 of it's money. We are talking about a US so poor that it had tens of thousands of veterans march on DC because the UCAs couldn't pay what they owed them. We are talking about a nation that is at best a shadow of it's former glory.

I'm not sure where you're getting these figures, but for the most part what you're stating, aside from the sovereignty rights given to corporations and the loss of 2/3s of the land, sounds a lot to me like what happened during the Depression. Yeah, times were hard then, but it didn't degenerate into a completely collapsed society or anarchy. It just took some time to recover. And it has. The government put itself in debt to help the economy recover, and it worked, bigtime. There is the idea that the U.S. economy was always meant to be in debt so that it always had something to work for. The cattle of society (read: the middle class) don't change, they always want the same thing; a place to work, food to eat, a roof over their heads, a distraction to escape their cattle life, and the chance to bring more cattle into the world. You start taking that stuff away and they either fight for it or they leave to go somewhere they can get it. I'm not saying the world you state couldn't exist, it very well might, but don't think it would be the U.C.A.S. chock full of corporations.

Honestly, if things are so bad in the UCAS why would corporations even come here? Why do they now? They do it now because the economy is stable. Yeah, labor is cheaper in unstable places, but the danger is also greater that you'll end up losing your corporate assets to a local warlord or a band of religous zealots with guns. Corporations are not going to set up shop in places that are bordering on anarchy, plain and simple.

If things truly are as bad in the U.C.A.S. as you paint them to be, then there wouldn't be nearly the resources, nearly the technology, nearly the functioning society and its programs the canon books state there is. It would be anarchy. There'd be no place to get the wizzer new cybertech, there'd be no available gateways to the computer other-world, there'd be no laws, no cops, just anarchy. And it isn't that way, not according to the books I've used and played with. I don't know, maybe that stuff has changed since FanPro took over, I haven't read a whole lot from their latest sourcebooks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Jun 22 2005, 10:05 PM
Post #64


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,011
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



QUOTE (shadow_scholar)
I'm not sure where you're getting these figures

Probably NAGNA.
QUOTE
for the most part what you're stating, aside from the sovereignty rights given to corporations and the loss of 2/3s of the land, sounds a lot to me like what happened during the Depression.  Yeah, times were hard then, but it didn't degenerate into a completely collapsed society or anarchy.  It just took some time to recover.  And it has.  The government put itself in debt to help the economy recover, and it worked, bigtime.

Because we got into a war. Moreover, in SR the downward slope started over sixty years previously and has not reversed.
QUOTE
Honestly, if things are so bad in the UCAS why would corporations even come here?  Why do they now?  They do it now because the economy is stable.  Yeah, labor is cheaper in unstable places, but the danger is also greater that you'll end up losing your corporate assets to a local warlord or a band of religous zealots with guns.  Corporations are not going to set up shop in places that are bordering on anarchy, plain and simple.

Extraterritoriality means the corps no longer need the government around them. When you've got the guns, the zealots and warlords don't look so bad. As for economy, the corps are the economy. Most transactions occur in nuyen (stronger than any currency in the world save the Swiss Franc and the Euro (the latter probably being bound to the value of the nuyen, though I don't have SoE on-hand).
QUOTE
If things truly are as bad in the U.C.A.S. as you paint them to be, then there wouldn't be nearly the resources, nearly the technology, nearly the functioning society and its programs the canon books state there is.  It would be anarchy.  There'd be no place to get the wizzer new cybertech, there'd be no available gateways to the computer other-world, there'd be no laws, no cops, just anarchy.  And it isn't that way, not according to the books I've used and played with.  I don't know, maybe that stuff has changed since FanPro took over, I haven't read a whole lot from their latest sourcebooks.

It doesn't matter how bad the UCAS gets, as long as there are rich people to buy products and the corps don't need a strong government around them (and indeed prefer to avoid it) the corps will be advancing the pace of technology.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lollerskates
post Jun 22 2005, 10:26 PM
Post #65


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 63
Joined: 22-June 05
From: Candyland
Member No.: 7,454



QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The majority of Lone Star consists of people who could barely afford a Middle lifestyle if you multiply their pay by 1.5. They are not going to be a threat.

yes, they are. anybody with a gun is a threat.

QUOTE
The cybered/magic-using heavy-hitters are nasty, but they're also expensive—it's much less expensive and easier to come down hard on some tiny gang and point to them and say "these are the guys, honest".

what you're suggesting the gangs do isn't exactly covert operations here. a flimsy story like that isn't going to fool lone star's own men, nor the packs of investigative reporters eager to make the front page, nor the Seattle government that contracted the corporation's services to keep the peace. the repercussions would be far more severe than the cost of sending in some heavy hitters to wipe the offending gang off the face of the planet.

not to mention that by backing down from such a blatant spit in the face, they'll be sending a message to criminals everywhere that lone star is a corporation that can be easily fucked with.

there are ways of sending a message to those at the top that don't involve slaughtering everyone at the bottom.

QUOTE
I do doubt that real cops would be anywhere near as effective as you suggest in this situation, but Lone Star is not comprised of real cops.

Regarding your strike-team-in-the-barrens example, there are several canon examples of gangs hanging out there with missile launchers (the big ones, certainly, but they're there). They aren't going to take kindly to the intrusion. Once you lose a few of the vehicles you're coming in on complete with everyone on board, you start to ask yourself if it was worth it.

then cut a deal with those holding the missile launchers. enlist their aid in helping you eliminate the target gang in exchange for a few get-out-of-jail-free cards. ganger solidarity is not an idea that should leave the television screen.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Jun 22 2005, 10:31 PM
Post #66


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



QUOTE
And BitBasher, please remember that we're not dealing with Real Life here. We're dealing with Shadowrun, which is as pure a form of Hollywood bullshit as you can get without going to Hollywood.
"SR" is not hollywood. Your game may be, but many games are different. Mine is about as far from "hollywood" as you can get... well not that far if you count HEAT, Ronin or Collateral.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lollerskates
post Jun 22 2005, 10:53 PM
Post #67


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 63
Joined: 22-June 05
From: Candyland
Member No.: 7,454



collateral isn't hollywood? collateral? :eek:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Jun 22 2005, 11:43 PM
Post #68


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



QUOTE (lollerskates)
collateral isn't hollywood? collateral? :eek:

Compared to Last Action Hero? No. Collateral was actually pretty good IMHO in the gunplay dept comapred to most all other hollywood flicks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cynic project
post Jun 23 2005, 12:19 AM
Post #69


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,032
Joined: 6-August 04
Member No.: 6,543



QUOTE (shadow_scholar)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jun 22 2005, 03:42 PM)
Maybe you don't get it, we are talking about the US with unemployment in the 30% range here. We are talking about the US that gives cooperations the right to have sogernity with the boarders of their land. We are talking about the US that has lost more than two thirds it land, and at least 80 of it's money. We are talking about a US so poor that it had tens of thousands of veterans march on DC because the UCAs couldn't pay what they owed them. We are talking about a nation that is at best a shadow of it's former glory.

I'm not sure where you're getting these figures, but for the most part what you're stating, aside from the sovereignty rights given to corporations and the loss of 2/3s of the land, sounds a lot to me like what happened during the Depression. Yeah, times were hard then, but it didn't degenerate into a completely collapsed society or anarchy. It just took some time to recover. And it has. The government put itself in debt to help the economy recover, and it worked, bigtime. There is the idea that the U.S. economy was always meant to be in debt so that it always had something to work for. The cattle of society (read: the middle class) don't change, they always want the same thing; a place to work, food to eat, a roof over their heads, a distraction to escape their cattle life, and the chance to bring more cattle into the world. You start taking that stuff away and they either fight for it or they leave to go somewhere they can get it. I'm not saying the world you state couldn't exist, it very well might, but don't think it would be the U.C.A.S. chock full of corporations.

Honestly, if things are so bad in the UCAS why would corporations even come here? Why do they now? They do it now because the economy is stable. Yeah, labor is cheaper in unstable places, but the danger is also greater that you'll end up losing your corporate assets to a local warlord or a band of religous zealots with guns. Corporations are not going to set up shop in places that are bordering on anarchy, plain and simple.

If things truly are as bad in the U.C.A.S. as you paint them to be, then there wouldn't be nearly the resources, nearly the technology, nearly the functioning society and its programs the canon books state there is. It would be anarchy. There'd be no place to get the wizzer new cybertech, there'd be no available gateways to the computer other-world, there'd be no laws, no cops, just anarchy. And it isn't that way, not according to the books I've used and played with. I don't know, maybe that stuff has changed since FanPro took over, I haven't read a whole lot from their latest sourcebooks.

Estmiated Sinless in the UCAS 30%
Below Poverty level 26%.

now seeing as you would not have to count Sinless in poverty studies, you really have a shit load of poor people. We are really talking about an econamy that is really fucked up.

Now would the people know that things used to be better? Maybe. It depends on what they teach in history classes. WOuld the people care enough to do something? Again maybe. They could "know" that for all the bad things in the UCAS it is not as bad other places. They may "know" that things will get better. They will get the pie in the sky.

But in the end, it is not just the UCAS that is fucked up, it is the whole world.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 23 2005, 12:25 AM
Post #70


Horror
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,322
Joined: 15-June 05
From: BumFuck, New Jersey
Member No.: 7,445



Well of course the whole world is fucked up. That's what you get when you let corps grow into legal mafia. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Jun 23 2005, 12:53 AM
Post #71


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



QUOTE (lollerskates)
then cut a deal with those holding the missile launchers. enlist their aid in helping you eliminate the target gang in exchange for a few get-out-of-jail-free cards. ganger solidarity is not an idea that should leave the television screen.

How much do you think you'd bet that the gang/s in question would not leak that LS is planning something big by cutting a deal with their gang (the gang should be big if they have heavy artillery)? And what media snoop doesn't have some ganger contacts and doesn't want a scoop?

You might be able to enlist their aid, but if LS wants to go through that gang's territory, they'd still have to pay the toll. Once word gets on the street that one gang turned lackey to LS, what do you think would happen to them?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lollerskates
post Jun 23 2005, 01:15 AM
Post #72


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 63
Joined: 22-June 05
From: Candyland
Member No.: 7,454



QUOTE (toturi)
How much do you think you'd bet that the gang/s in question would not leak that LS is planning something big by cutting a deal with their gang (the gang should be big if they have heavy artillery)?

that really depends on whom you consider a more valuable ally. lone star? or some rival gang that might not even exist in the future if the cops decide to follow through with their strike plan?

QUOTE
And what media snoop doesn't have some ganger contacts and doesn't want a scoop?

for a gang, maintaining a good mutual understanding with lone star is far more profitable in the long run than whatever cash selling the story would bring in. furthermore, you would have absolutely no proof to back up what you're saying. and furtherfurthermore, the story isn't that hot anyway.

QUOTE
You might be able to enlist their aid, but if LS wants to go through that gang's territory, they'd still have to pay the toll. Once word gets on the street that one gang turned lackey to LS, what do you think would happen to them?

absolutely nothing. buying and selling is hardly "turning lackey." it wouldn't be the first time that lone star employed the services of people living outside the law, and it wouldn't be the last either.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Jun 23 2005, 01:44 AM
Post #73


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



QUOTE (lollerskates)
that really depends on whom you consider a more valuable ally. lone star? or some rival gang that might not even exist in the future if the cops decide to follow through with their strike plan?

for a gang, maintaining a good mutual understanding with lone star is far more profitable in the long run than whatever cash selling the story would bring in. furthermore, you would have absolutely no proof to back up what you're saying. and furtherfurthermore, the story isn't that hot anyway.

absolutely nothing. buying and selling is hardly "turning lackey." it wouldn't be the first time that lone star employed the services of people living outside the law, and it wouldn't be the last either.

Yeah, but what about the 10 other gangs that didn't make the deal? Would they sit on their hands and wait for the Gang+LS alliance wipe them out (even if such a plan did not exist, would the gangs be not paranoid enough to think of it)?

For a gang, rep is everything. Once word gets on the street, the whole Barrens will turn on them, especially if the gang that LS was gunning gets taken out. They'd do it for self preservation if nothing else.

The street would not see it as buying and selling. They would see it as selling out. And then the gang's rep would be in the shitter. LS hires Shadowrunners sometimes, professional SRers are smart enough to keep quiet, other not-so-pro SRers should be smart enough to know that if they blab, other street gangs would not be "friendly" towards them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lollerskates
post Jun 23 2005, 01:58 AM
Post #74


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 63
Joined: 22-June 05
From: Candyland
Member No.: 7,454



QUOTE (toturi)
Yeah, but what about the 10 other gangs that didn't make the deal? Would they sit on their hands and wait for the Gang+LS alliance wipe them out (even if such a plan did not exist, would the gangs be not paranoid enough to think of it)?

what 10 other gangs? we're only discussing 1 gang here. as long as you don't pull the same stupid shit that got lone star so pissed off that they'll try to flatten you outright, you have nothing to worry about.

QUOTE
The street would not see it as buying and selling. They would see it as selling out.

no they wouldn't. the ones who you claim would see it as selling out would've done the same thing themselves many times in the past. cop-criminal transactions happen everyday in the real world, and it's just silly to assume that it wouldn't happen in the shadowrun world, especially considering how much more corrupt the system is supposed to be. if gangs go after each other's throats for something as simple as tolling a cop for passing through your turf, lone star wouldn't even be necessary anymore.

gangs aren't us vs them. it's us vs everyone else, and you grab whatever allies you can.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Jun 23 2005, 05:31 AM
Post #75


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 22 2005, 02:25 PM)
If they are going to make a raid into a Z zone, they're not going in with five city masters and a wasp.  They're going in with tanks, helicopters, satellites, lasers a few kliks away, gas, and magic up the ying yang.  They'll send in elementals beforehand and drones the size of a booger to map out the entire place and every enemy in there, and when they go in, you won't have time to pull your pants up, much less grab, load and prep your gun.

If they're going to make a major, multi-million nuyen strike with media coverage, they're going to do it right.  It's not something they can afford to do often, and it's certainly not something you want to be around if it happens.  There are too many careers on the line for them to use anything less than absolutely overwhelming firepower.

It's not something they can afford to do period. If they could do it, they'd have done it already. I find it hard to imagine anything that doesn't involve large parts of downtown blowing up will put any more egg on Lone Star's collective face than the fact that two large parts of the city are completely abandoned to the criminals and dregs of society. Not only that, but major highways go abandoned to go-gangers at night. These people do not have the resources or control to mount that kind of strike.

Lone Star certainly has the resources to do it. It would require a great deal of creative logistics to pull off. Lone Star has the resources to pacify and occupy the Barrens if they wanted to. However, their orginazational structure isn't conducive to fullscale paramilitary operations. They would probably require the assistance of the Metroplex Guard to make such an operation feasable.

Why haven't they done it already? Politics and money. It is cheaper to leave it alone but, more importantly, it would be bad for the polititions who approperiate the money for their contract. The SINless can't vote so crime among the SINless is no big deal so long as it remains among the SINless. If the powers that be were to make a large scale effort to reclaim the Barren one of their first major steps would be to give out SINs to the people that makes their homes there. This means more voters, voters who can tip the scales in an election. No sane politition would want this.
If they don't give out SINs like they were candy then it will be impossible to catalog and track all of the people living in the Barrens


If they had to go in to get individual cop-killers the would probably use undercover officers and irregular assets. More of the latter than the former, probably.

If there was a war declared agaisnt them then they would have no choice but to respond in kind. It isn't like they can abandon one city without losing an absurd amount of stock value and most of their other contracts.

The reason that organized criminals can assasinate judges in Italy is that they have a great deal of money and influance. The reason that the cops don't just smash them down is that people have rights to fair trials and things like that.

In the Barrens Lone Star faces none of these problems. The Yakuza and the Mafia have vast resources. The street gangs don't . The street gangs are too busy killing each other to make a coordinated attack against anyone. Enemies can sometimes unite for the greater good, but I doubt there is a good great enough that the Spikes and the Night Hunters would work together. There are too many prejudices and hatreds. As for rights, nobody will care much if a few gangers are killed when they started the conflict in the first place.

These gangs only have about 15-25 members. They can't put up much of a fight.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 1st July 2025 - 07:04 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.