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#51
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Even if you aren't touching a single LS employee, not even dealing Stun damage but slipping by them totally unnoticed, you're still doing harm to Lone Star. You're making the 'Star lose face and possibly contracts, and you're making L-S employees lose jobs. As a Shadowrunner, you are a pain in the ass for L-S any way you slice it (save being a company man for them).
~J |
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#52
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 ![]() |
I suppose I do. I have a rough idea of what cops get paid today, and it isn't a janitorial salary, so I base my game on that. Cops in Austin need to have at least 2 years of college under their belt before they can even apply, so they're automatically gonna get paid more than janitors. Granted, the SR world isn't the same as this one, but the underlying need to feel safe for most people isn't going to go away. If a cop force doesn't deliver on that "safe" feeling, they're gonna get someone who can, and spend a little more cash to do it. My world has a lot more underworld dealing going on rather than over the top shootouts in the streets, much like the world today (at least where I live). Besides, I'm basing my cop salaries on the place where Lonestar has its corporate headquarters, okay, it might not be the same thing, but close enough for this GM. As for the security guards, even small corporations have live guards, but from what I understand they don't tend to be cops. There are tons of security guard companies who get paid crap wages to sit around and watch monitors and make rounds, and they're not cops, just guys who want easy jobs. Off duty cops do take security jobs, but those are jobs in more public venues where they wear their official uniforms are they are visible enough to be used as a deterrent, like guarding movie theaters or sporting events. |
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#53
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 ![]() |
There's a world of difference between killing lots of them and causing them to lose big contracts (which would be necessary to trigger such a raid), and hospitalizing a few of them and causing them to lose a bit of respect. In any case, no matter how much I cared about "turf", whose ever it is, I would not personally commit physical force into protecting it against an organization which can muster a few thousand times more of force. Shadowrunners would likely find an intel war much less risky, if not necessarily much more productive.
Maybe this comes down to the culture we've grown up in IRL. Where I come from, considering gangs and even organized crime to be a real physical threat to LE is laughable at best. No matter how dystopian I try to see the future as, I just cannot see LEOs becoming worthless, easily scared scum while gangs become all-powerful, highly-trained and motivated para-military forces. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jun 22 2005, 07:11 PM |
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#54
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Freelance Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 ![]() |
All I can say is it looks like about five different conversations are going on between three or maybe four different people. You just all think you're actually quoting and disagreeing with and talking to one another -- because it's obvious that different people are talking about wholly different things. We've got one guy espousing artillery strikes, another preaching about panzers strafing Lone Star SWAT teams or something, another about precise overwhelming raids on a single known target, another about Lone Star "taking over" all of the Barrens in one big bite, blah blah blah.
I'm fairly certain no two people are having the same discussion or dealing with the same half-assed topic any more. |
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#55
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 ![]() |
I can only hope that guy's me. :) |
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#56
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 ![]() |
One thing I am noticing about this thread is how many people think shadowrun takes place in place in the US of fucking A. The fact is this, the USA and UCAS aren't the same thing. Lone star and your local PD aren't the same thing.
Look at say the mob war in itally. We are talking about places where judges have private security guards on the scales that would boggle your mind and they are still killed. Think of Seattle like Columbia in the 80's. Or how Sou Paulo or Rio are. The parts of town that are meant to look nice, look nice but the rest can go to hell in a hand basket. It is a dystopic future. If the lone star had the resources to easily win that kind of war, they would have done it a long time ago. |
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#57
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 ![]() |
The thing that surprises me is anyone assumes the star would take on any sort of operation they have months to prepare for, and not use overwhelming force.
If they are going to make a raid into a Z zone, they're not going in with five city masters and a wasp. They're going in with tanks, helicopters, satellites, lasers a few kliks away, gas, and magic up the ying yang. They'll send in elementals beforehand and drones the size of a booger to map out the entire place and every enemy in there, and when they go in, you won't have time to pull your pants up, much less grab, load and prep your gun. If they're going to make a major, multi-million nuyen strike with media coverage, they're going to do it right. It's not something they can afford to do often, and it's certainly not something you want to be around if it happens. There are too many careers on the line for them to use anything less than absolutely overwhelming firepower. |
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#58
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 ![]() |
I don't believe that. People drive the country, not matter what country it is. People in the U.S.A. aren't suddenly going to change the way they feel overnight when it becomes the U.C.A.S. Americans have a standard of living, and when the government doesn't provide that standard they're either gonna live under the new standard (some will), go somewhere else where the standard is good enough for them, or create that standard. Why do you think so many people come to the U.S.A. now and have in the past? If they can do it, people are going to go where they feel safe, they always have and they always will. Security and survivability is a huge instinct that can't be tossed out so easily. I tend to think of Shadowrun less as being a dystopic future (a very 80s concept) and more like a realistic future one (well, as realistic as you can get with dragons and elves running around). Now I'm not saying crime won't be existent, it just won't be super violent. People will allow a lot, but gunfights with gangers gunning down moronic police officers outside their front door isn't one of them. They'd be in an uprage and pay those extra taxes to feel safe. |
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#59
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Avatar of Mediocrity ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 ![]() |
Maybe confusing the Beslan school thing with the Moscow theater gassing a couple years back? |
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#60
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 ![]() |
Maybe you don't get it, we are talking about the US with unemployment in the 30% range here. We are talking about the US that gives cooperations the right to have sogernity with the boarders of their land. We are talking about the US that has lost more than two thirds it land, and at least 80 of it's money. We are talking about a US so poor that it had tens of thousands of veterans march on DC because the UCAs couldn't pay what they owed them. We are talking about a nation that is at best a shadow of it's former glory. You want to see what life is going to be like in the UCAS go to Moscow. In the US we have the highest crime rate in the world, and we don't really even care. We have 5% of the world people and 25% of the world presioners. This is when we have the world's best economy and unemployment around 7-9%. You want to see crazy ass shit? Come to the US, and you will see it, we have things this way because we can and litarily piss money away. We spend more money person on cops, prisons and all that shit than any other country in the world. Still we have more crime? So do you really think with less ethical cops and less money we would even look remotely have the same sort of crime? |
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#61
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 ![]() |
Yeouch, that must hurt. Paper or coins? Because I imagine paper would be only marginally better. |
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#62
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
It's not something they can afford to do period. If they could do it, they'd have done it already. I find it hard to imagine anything that doesn't involve large parts of downtown blowing up will put any more egg on Lone Star's collective face than the fact that two large parts of the city are completely abandoned to the criminals and dregs of society. Not only that, but major highways go abandoned to go-gangers at night. These people do not have the resources or control to mount that kind of strike.
May I remind you that this is the world that was having food riots in major cities in the 90s? ~J |
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#63
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 ![]() |
I'm not sure where you're getting these figures, but for the most part what you're stating, aside from the sovereignty rights given to corporations and the loss of 2/3s of the land, sounds a lot to me like what happened during the Depression. Yeah, times were hard then, but it didn't degenerate into a completely collapsed society or anarchy. It just took some time to recover. And it has. The government put itself in debt to help the economy recover, and it worked, bigtime. There is the idea that the U.S. economy was always meant to be in debt so that it always had something to work for. The cattle of society (read: the middle class) don't change, they always want the same thing; a place to work, food to eat, a roof over their heads, a distraction to escape their cattle life, and the chance to bring more cattle into the world. You start taking that stuff away and they either fight for it or they leave to go somewhere they can get it. I'm not saying the world you state couldn't exist, it very well might, but don't think it would be the U.C.A.S. chock full of corporations. Honestly, if things are so bad in the UCAS why would corporations even come here? Why do they now? They do it now because the economy is stable. Yeah, labor is cheaper in unstable places, but the danger is also greater that you'll end up losing your corporate assets to a local warlord or a band of religous zealots with guns. Corporations are not going to set up shop in places that are bordering on anarchy, plain and simple. If things truly are as bad in the U.C.A.S. as you paint them to be, then there wouldn't be nearly the resources, nearly the technology, nearly the functioning society and its programs the canon books state there is. It would be anarchy. There'd be no place to get the wizzer new cybertech, there'd be no available gateways to the computer other-world, there'd be no laws, no cops, just anarchy. And it isn't that way, not according to the books I've used and played with. I don't know, maybe that stuff has changed since FanPro took over, I haven't read a whole lot from their latest sourcebooks. |
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#64
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Probably NAGNA.
Because we got into a war. Moreover, in SR the downward slope started over sixty years previously and has not reversed.
Extraterritoriality means the corps no longer need the government around them. When you've got the guns, the zealots and warlords don't look so bad. As for economy, the corps are the economy. Most transactions occur in nuyen (stronger than any currency in the world save the Swiss Franc and the Euro (the latter probably being bound to the value of the nuyen, though I don't have SoE on-hand).
It doesn't matter how bad the UCAS gets, as long as there are rich people to buy products and the corps don't need a strong government around them (and indeed prefer to avoid it) the corps will be advancing the pace of technology. ~J |
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#65
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 ![]() |
yes, they are. anybody with a gun is a threat.
what you're suggesting the gangs do isn't exactly covert operations here. a flimsy story like that isn't going to fool lone star's own men, nor the packs of investigative reporters eager to make the front page, nor the Seattle government that contracted the corporation's services to keep the peace. the repercussions would be far more severe than the cost of sending in some heavy hitters to wipe the offending gang off the face of the planet. not to mention that by backing down from such a blatant spit in the face, they'll be sending a message to criminals everywhere that lone star is a corporation that can be easily fucked with. there are ways of sending a message to those at the top that don't involve slaughtering everyone at the bottom.
then cut a deal with those holding the missile launchers. enlist their aid in helping you eliminate the target gang in exchange for a few get-out-of-jail-free cards. ganger solidarity is not an idea that should leave the television screen. |
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#66
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Traumatizing players since 1992 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 ![]() |
"SR" is not hollywood. Your game may be, but many games are different. Mine is about as far from "hollywood" as you can get... well not that far if you count HEAT, Ronin or Collateral.
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#67
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 ![]() |
collateral isn't hollywood? collateral? :eek:
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#68
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Traumatizing players since 1992 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 ![]() |
Compared to Last Action Hero? No. Collateral was actually pretty good IMHO in the gunplay dept comapred to most all other hollywood flicks. |
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#69
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 ![]() |
Estmiated Sinless in the UCAS 30% Below Poverty level 26%. now seeing as you would not have to count Sinless in poverty studies, you really have a shit load of poor people. We are really talking about an econamy that is really fucked up. Now would the people know that things used to be better? Maybe. It depends on what they teach in history classes. WOuld the people care enough to do something? Again maybe. They could "know" that for all the bad things in the UCAS it is not as bad other places. They may "know" that things will get better. They will get the pie in the sky. But in the end, it is not just the UCAS that is fucked up, it is the whole world. |
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#70
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Horror ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 ![]() |
Well of course the whole world is fucked up. That's what you get when you let corps grow into legal mafia. :)
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#71
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Canon Companion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 ![]() |
How much do you think you'd bet that the gang/s in question would not leak that LS is planning something big by cutting a deal with their gang (the gang should be big if they have heavy artillery)? And what media snoop doesn't have some ganger contacts and doesn't want a scoop? You might be able to enlist their aid, but if LS wants to go through that gang's territory, they'd still have to pay the toll. Once word gets on the street that one gang turned lackey to LS, what do you think would happen to them? |
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#72
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 ![]() |
that really depends on whom you consider a more valuable ally. lone star? or some rival gang that might not even exist in the future if the cops decide to follow through with their strike plan?
for a gang, maintaining a good mutual understanding with lone star is far more profitable in the long run than whatever cash selling the story would bring in. furthermore, you would have absolutely no proof to back up what you're saying. and furtherfurthermore, the story isn't that hot anyway.
absolutely nothing. buying and selling is hardly "turning lackey." it wouldn't be the first time that lone star employed the services of people living outside the law, and it wouldn't be the last either. |
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#73
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Canon Companion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 ![]() |
Yeah, but what about the 10 other gangs that didn't make the deal? Would they sit on their hands and wait for the Gang+LS alliance wipe them out (even if such a plan did not exist, would the gangs be not paranoid enough to think of it)? For a gang, rep is everything. Once word gets on the street, the whole Barrens will turn on them, especially if the gang that LS was gunning gets taken out. They'd do it for self preservation if nothing else. The street would not see it as buying and selling. They would see it as selling out. And then the gang's rep would be in the shitter. LS hires Shadowrunners sometimes, professional SRers are smart enough to keep quiet, other not-so-pro SRers should be smart enough to know that if they blab, other street gangs would not be "friendly" towards them. |
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#74
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 ![]() |
what 10 other gangs? we're only discussing 1 gang here. as long as you don't pull the same stupid shit that got lone star so pissed off that they'll try to flatten you outright, you have nothing to worry about.
no they wouldn't. the ones who you claim would see it as selling out would've done the same thing themselves many times in the past. cop-criminal transactions happen everyday in the real world, and it's just silly to assume that it wouldn't happen in the shadowrun world, especially considering how much more corrupt the system is supposed to be. if gangs go after each other's throats for something as simple as tolling a cop for passing through your turf, lone star wouldn't even be necessary anymore. gangs aren't us vs them. it's us vs everyone else, and you grab whatever allies you can. |
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#75
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Midnight Toker ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 ![]() |
Lone Star certainly has the resources to do it. It would require a great deal of creative logistics to pull off. Lone Star has the resources to pacify and occupy the Barrens if they wanted to. However, their orginazational structure isn't conducive to fullscale paramilitary operations. They would probably require the assistance of the Metroplex Guard to make such an operation feasable. Why haven't they done it already? Politics and money. It is cheaper to leave it alone but, more importantly, it would be bad for the polititions who approperiate the money for their contract. The SINless can't vote so crime among the SINless is no big deal so long as it remains among the SINless. If the powers that be were to make a large scale effort to reclaim the Barren one of their first major steps would be to give out SINs to the people that makes their homes there. This means more voters, voters who can tip the scales in an election. No sane politition would want this. If they don't give out SINs like they were candy then it will be impossible to catalog and track all of the people living in the Barrens If they had to go in to get individual cop-killers the would probably use undercover officers and irregular assets. More of the latter than the former, probably. If there was a war declared agaisnt them then they would have no choice but to respond in kind. It isn't like they can abandon one city without losing an absurd amount of stock value and most of their other contracts. The reason that organized criminals can assasinate judges in Italy is that they have a great deal of money and influance. The reason that the cops don't just smash them down is that people have rights to fair trials and things like that. In the Barrens Lone Star faces none of these problems. The Yakuza and the Mafia have vast resources. The street gangs don't . The street gangs are too busy killing each other to make a coordinated attack against anyone. Enemies can sometimes unite for the greater good, but I doubt there is a good great enough that the Spikes and the Night Hunters would work together. There are too many prejudices and hatreds. As for rights, nobody will care much if a few gangers are killed when they started the conflict in the first place. These gangs only have about 15-25 members. They can't put up much of a fight. |
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