I was reading about this on CNN and it got me thinking. According to the article the raid was planned as a message to other gang members about what happens when police officers get killed. (I could be wrong but that's the gist of the article that I got). My question is this: would this ever happen in your campaign setting? How retaliatory is Lonestar (or whatever security firm/actual police force you use) in your game? What other forces do you bring to bear on players who get a little too forgetful of those on the other side of the law? Any examples would be greatly appreciated as I'm looking for something to subtly (or not so subtly) nudge a few characters back into watching their backs a little bit more.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, ya'll.
Full Version: Taking another look at LoneStar
The thing to do here is to show them that if they mess with you, they are going to pay. Explosives under squad vehicles, snipers near the precinct building, gunmen following cops home and wiping the entire family. You need to show them that this sort of behavior won't be tolerated, or they'll just be encouraged to do it again.
~J
~J
That raid is really stupid if it was meant to be retaliatory. I mean the officers that were killed in 1988 and 2003. The last killing was 2 years ago. Given the fluid nature of some of the gangs in SR, and considering that most of the worst gangs are based in the Barrens, I doubt LS will retaliate with no less than the whole city's complement of FRTs and SWAT almost immediately.
Hehe, in one of my games, Lonestar was getting hurt in a big gang war that had spread through payallup. With the media breathing down their necks, and having lost quite a few officers in the violence, they sent in practically a brigade and threw the smack down. They even traced some of the weapons being used to the crime mall and levelled it.
My PC's practically shit themselves when they learned they couldn't go to the crime mall over the next 5 sessions.
edit: Honestly, I love when law enforcment does this. I hate that mickey-mouse gangbanger shit.
My PC's practically shit themselves when they learned they couldn't go to the crime mall over the next 5 sessions.
edit: Honestly, I love when law enforcment does this. I hate that mickey-mouse gangbanger shit.
I doubt they'll even enter the Barrens. They might shell and/or bomb the place (shelling is safer, though you still run afoul of the Red Hot Nukes lobbing shells right back), but it will take quite a bit to get them to reenter completely abandoned turf.
~J
~J
New Seattle says they'll go in if you really peeve them, but they'll go in force. I figured a few dead cops and the media breathing down their necks about a huge gang war could get 'em into action.
I would love t osee my players face when they see a dozen City masters, followd by SWAT vans rolling down past their doss, and unloading a couple of blocks away!
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| I would love t osee my players face when they see a dozen City masters, followd by SWAT vans rolling down past their doss, and unloading a couple of blocks away! |
It's Priceless.
...and the look of relief when they realize the 'Star' isn't in the neighborhood for them, even better.
But they're in the neighborhood. That makes them meat.
Neighborhoods don't become Z-zones by themselves, you know. You have to work to make one, and work every day to keep it.
~J
Neighborhoods don't become Z-zones by themselves, you know. You have to work to make one, and work every day to keep it.
~J
Good point. 
I guess it depends on the Corp to Cop ratio of Lone Star.
It's not profitable to start a war in an abandoned district to get vengeance for a few dead cops. It is, however, what cops would do.
So if the Star is more cop than corp, yes. If not... Then no. Most they might do is scream overhead with a few strike fighters and blow the unholy mother of lead out of a few suspected gang hideouts and call it even.
Seriously. Trying to take down a Shadowrun gang, which seems to me to be the match of most paramilitary groups today, if not better....
Well, short of eradicating the Barrens by shelling or bombing, their only option is to go in. And that would be nothing short of a land war, reminiscant of the battles in Stalingrad and Berlin. And pissing off that many Shadowrunners, not to mention the gangs and organized crime, would definately not be healthy for Lone Star.
As Kagentoshi said, they'd start finding snipers outside precint buildings, entire cops' families wiped out, bombs in squad cars. Depending on just how deep the pockets of the people they peeve off, you'll start finding exploding precint buildings, and anti-aircraft weapons waiting near all their landing pads.
Simply put, it's not cost effective. They don't need or want to add Seattle to the list of cities totally devestated by a land war within it. It would be bad for bisuness.
It's not profitable to start a war in an abandoned district to get vengeance for a few dead cops. It is, however, what cops would do.
So if the Star is more cop than corp, yes. If not... Then no. Most they might do is scream overhead with a few strike fighters and blow the unholy mother of lead out of a few suspected gang hideouts and call it even.
Seriously. Trying to take down a Shadowrun gang, which seems to me to be the match of most paramilitary groups today, if not better....
Well, short of eradicating the Barrens by shelling or bombing, their only option is to go in. And that would be nothing short of a land war, reminiscant of the battles in Stalingrad and Berlin. And pissing off that many Shadowrunners, not to mention the gangs and organized crime, would definately not be healthy for Lone Star.
As Kagentoshi said, they'd start finding snipers outside precint buildings, entire cops' families wiped out, bombs in squad cars. Depending on just how deep the pockets of the people they peeve off, you'll start finding exploding precint buildings, and anti-aircraft weapons waiting near all their landing pads.
Simply put, it's not cost effective. They don't need or want to add Seattle to the list of cities totally devestated by a land war within it. It would be bad for bisuness.
Some LS officers would likely start their own little war after one of their partners/friends/co-workers got geeked or one of their not-so-legal sources of income was broken down (the Star doesn't pay too good, after all).
Most cops are neither black nor white, they're gray. And sometimes they take the one step and go on the criminal side to fullfill their goals and motivations.
Most cops are neither black nor white, they're gray. And sometimes they take the one step and go on the criminal side to fullfill their goals and motivations.
I'd amend that with "it's not normally cost effective." There are times when the loss of face (which isn't just a pride thing, it's a stock thing, a market thing, a commercial thing, a loss-of-contract thing) that would come from several deads cops (as a for instance) could be enough for them to go in. I don't think they'd rush a Z Zone every time something went down, or even every time they tracked a cop killer there... but one in five? One time in ten?
If they get enough fingers pointing at a certain gang/group that's responsible, and especially if those fingers are pointing publically (so that other cops, the dead cops' families, the stockholders, the media, the public, all know that LS knows and is doing nothing)...? Then I can see the poop hittin' the fan.
And I see Lone Star going in like Rangers and D-Boys in Blackhawk Down (almost exactly like that, in fact). Heavily equipped beat cops and either SWAT or FRT teams securing a violent perimeter around a target block or whatever, and then either SWAT or FRT nailing the target building itself (from several directions, after appropriate astral recon, etc, etc, etc). SWAT goes in if they're out to arrest the targets, FRT if they're just out for a body count and a structure fire, and whichever of the two "elite" groups isn't hitting the building itself is spread out to help enforce the perimeter-team.
I mean, they can do that sort of crap if they want to, and if they're provoked seriously enough. Do they do it often? Do they do it lightly? Do they do it with no concern for the attention it draws? No. No, of course not.
But every now and then, I bet they get a kick out of kicking back, and reminding the street scum who has the bigger budget in a very quick, overwhelmingly decisive, in-and-out raid.
With appropriate (and appropriately edited) media coverage.
If they get enough fingers pointing at a certain gang/group that's responsible, and especially if those fingers are pointing publically (so that other cops, the dead cops' families, the stockholders, the media, the public, all know that LS knows and is doing nothing)...? Then I can see the poop hittin' the fan.
And I see Lone Star going in like Rangers and D-Boys in Blackhawk Down (almost exactly like that, in fact). Heavily equipped beat cops and either SWAT or FRT teams securing a violent perimeter around a target block or whatever, and then either SWAT or FRT nailing the target building itself (from several directions, after appropriate astral recon, etc, etc, etc). SWAT goes in if they're out to arrest the targets, FRT if they're just out for a body count and a structure fire, and whichever of the two "elite" groups isn't hitting the building itself is spread out to help enforce the perimeter-team.
I mean, they can do that sort of crap if they want to, and if they're provoked seriously enough. Do they do it often? Do they do it lightly? Do they do it with no concern for the attention it draws? No. No, of course not.
But every now and then, I bet they get a kick out of kicking back, and reminding the street scum who has the bigger budget in a very quick, overwhelmingly decisive, in-and-out raid.
With appropriate (and appropriately edited) media coverage.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| The thing to do here is to show them that if they mess with you, they are going to pay. Explosives under squad vehicles, snipers near the precinct building, gunmen following cops home and wiping the entire family. |
and cry when they deal it back, except a hundred times harder.
lone star isn't going to sit around and twiddle their thumbs while you beat them into submission. not when they have a reputation to maintain and contracts to fulfill. subverting, intimidating, and taking out individuals on the corporate ladder is understandable, and oftentimes necessary, but a full-scale assault on lone star as a whole is just going to get you killed seventy six times over.
The difficulty with a strike of that type is that your going to leave somebody alive, and offended. Evon if you just flatten the entire aria somebody was out that day,
Cops have to be visible (I know there is under cover work but as an organisation they must be seen), criminals have a lot of practise at hiding every aspect of there operation.
If the cops got the crims riled into a war it would be a guriler war in suburbia, cops would risk being attacked even in A zones, calls for burglary follow up would be traps for the cops. The measures necessary to get the number of cops dying down to a number that leaves cops in the city at the end of the month would stop all criminal investigation, seeing this a secondary crime wave would follow. The war would stop when the national guard was called in to put 2 men on every street corner and roving patrols of 10-30 men and loan star lost its contract. In 3 months things would get back to normal, hopefully.
Obviously the gangs don’t want this any more than the cops, its not good for business and many gang members would die so it would take a truly grave insult to spark this kind of reaction, but there likely to take a mass invasion of the barons in much the same way as a small country would. (you will note the similarity between my scenario and some of the brushfire wars of the last few decades)
Edward
Cops have to be visible (I know there is under cover work but as an organisation they must be seen), criminals have a lot of practise at hiding every aspect of there operation.
If the cops got the crims riled into a war it would be a guriler war in suburbia, cops would risk being attacked even in A zones, calls for burglary follow up would be traps for the cops. The measures necessary to get the number of cops dying down to a number that leaves cops in the city at the end of the month would stop all criminal investigation, seeing this a secondary crime wave would follow. The war would stop when the national guard was called in to put 2 men on every street corner and roving patrols of 10-30 men and loan star lost its contract. In 3 months things would get back to normal, hopefully.
Obviously the gangs don’t want this any more than the cops, its not good for business and many gang members would die so it would take a truly grave insult to spark this kind of reaction, but there likely to take a mass invasion of the barons in much the same way as a small country would. (you will note the similarity between my scenario and some of the brushfire wars of the last few decades)
Edward
So noted. This is a Mogadishu scenario waiting to happen. And it can only escalate from Mogadishu to Stalingrad.
This is the kind of thing best left undone. Lone Star will lose a lot less face by letting someone who killed ten cops go free than they will by turning Seattle into an all-out warzone.
This is the kind of thing best left undone. Lone Star will lose a lot less face by letting someone who killed ten cops go free than they will by turning Seattle into an all-out warzone.
Both scenarios (all out strike, and just get the one responsible) are perfectly legitimate responses, depending on you play style.
Just like raising children and training puppies, though, you have to be absolutely consistent when stopping bad behavior. Otherwise the fact that you got away with it once is enough reward to keep doing the bad behavior. I mean, just look at shadowrunners.
Just like raising children and training puppies, though, you have to be absolutely consistent when stopping bad behavior. Otherwise the fact that you got away with it once is enough reward to keep doing the bad behavior. I mean, just look at shadowrunners.
| QUOTE (lollerskates @ Jun 22 2005, 09:12 AM) |
| and cry when they deal it back, except a hundred times harder. lone star isn't going to sit around and twiddle their thumbs while you beat them into submission. not when they have a reputation to maintain and contracts to fulfill. subverting, intimidating, and taking out individuals on the corporate ladder is understandable, and oftentimes necessary, but a full-scale assault on lone star as a whole is just going to get you killed seventy six times over. |
The majority of Lone Star consists of people who could barely afford a Middle lifestyle if you multiply their pay by 1.5. They are not going to be a threat. The cybered/magic-using heavy-hitters are nasty, but they're also expensive—it's much less expensive and easier to come down hard on some tiny gang and point to them and say "these are the guys, honest".
I do doubt that real cops would be anywhere near as effective as you suggest in this situation, but Lone Star is not comprised of real cops.
Regarding your strike-team-in-the-barrens example, there are several canon examples of gangs hanging out there with missile launchers (the big ones, certainly, but they're there). They aren't going to take kindly to the intrusion. Once you lose a few of the vehicles you're coming in on complete with everyone on board, you start to ask yourself if it was worth it.
~J
Even if it is a corps, its a para-military organization. I think you would certainly see a reaction, whether entirely sanctioned or not, because they are going to foster a spirit of team spirit, support for fellow officers, etc. Cause otherwise you can't perform the services.
While they may have the artillery, I think the mentality of a street gang would be against taking the war to the cops. Even today, plenty of gangs outgun the police, with Aks, Uzis, even RPGs. (or access to them.) But you do not routinely, see major stand offs, or anything approximating a "Stalingrad" or "Mogadishu". Gangs are about turf, but they are also about funds. So while a gang might get into a shoot out to defend its people from arrest/getting geeked during an "arrest" attempt, I don't see the whole barrens rising up against Lone Star. After all, if the Gang next door gets wiped out, well, hell, that's more territory for my gang.
Now if Lone Star was doing more than just a puntative raid or series of arrests, and actually trying to reverse a Z zone (restore permanent order) you might see something more like the kind of street warfare people are taking about, since that would effect EVERY ganger in the sprawl.
While they may have the artillery, I think the mentality of a street gang would be against taking the war to the cops. Even today, plenty of gangs outgun the police, with Aks, Uzis, even RPGs. (or access to them.) But you do not routinely, see major stand offs, or anything approximating a "Stalingrad" or "Mogadishu". Gangs are about turf, but they are also about funds. So while a gang might get into a shoot out to defend its people from arrest/getting geeked during an "arrest" attempt, I don't see the whole barrens rising up against Lone Star. After all, if the Gang next door gets wiped out, well, hell, that's more territory for my gang.
Now if Lone Star was doing more than just a puntative raid or series of arrests, and actually trying to reverse a Z zone (restore permanent order) you might see something more like the kind of street warfare people are taking about, since that would effect EVERY ganger in the sprawl.
Any case of a cop going into a Z-zone is a threat to that Z-zone.
~J
~J
The way i see lonestart is this, the enforce teh law, when and where they are paid to do so. This doesn't mean the are bad guys, it jsut means they are just doing there jobs, nothing mor nothing less.
Now here is a strange idea, what if they want big gangs? I mean, really the bigger the gang is the more reasonable they are going to be. Look at how the cutters were,yes they were a gang, yes they did bad things. They also had enough mojo that the number of open gang wars went down. what I am trying to get at is the big dog threory. If you leave a big dog alone they are most likely going to leave you alone. They got nothing to prove. Now small dogs, those things will try to get you, because they have something to prove.
Now here is a strange idea, what if they want big gangs? I mean, really the bigger the gang is the more reasonable they are going to be. Look at how the cutters were,yes they were a gang, yes they did bad things. They also had enough mojo that the number of open gang wars went down. what I am trying to get at is the big dog threory. If you leave a big dog alone they are most likely going to leave you alone. They got nothing to prove. Now small dogs, those things will try to get you, because they have something to prove.
yeah Frosty really stunned us good the gang war. we were like ok it would be a little dangorous to go to that part up town but it's that way most of the time anyway and i live in that part of town. then lonestar started blocking off that part of the city to try and contain the war. we were like ok just cut off 2 cities that we can't go to anymore, then we had a mission where we needed to get some new guns and what not and were like "i'm heading down to the crime mall" then he said so how are you getting there? and the guy say by cab ofcourse and he said the cap driver isn't crazy enough to go to that part of town even if he could get past the road blocks. then it kind of set in that damn this thing is really starting to mess with your characters and without a crime mall what the F&^* are we going to do. then like the next run the mayor or someone thought that LS wasn't doing that great of a job so she called in military back up, and LS didn't like them taking over so the military and LS kind of got in a pissing match and tried to stop the gang war. Thats when the crime mall was no longer, they leveled it. this whole thing started happening about 5 or so runs into the campaign and lasted like 7 runs. it really showed us what LS could do and not to mess with them. and this was all just story line and didn't really have much to do with the pc characters and what they had don't in there run's it wasn't like the gm was telling us to stop doing something it was just to make everything just a little harder to do. contacts, houses, day jobs were just a few of the things we lost from the gang war during those runs
| QUOTE (Sicarius @ Jun 22 2005, 10:52 AM) |
| While they may have the artillery, I think the mentality of a street gang would be against taking the war to the cops. Even today, plenty of gangs outgun the police, with Aks, Uzis, even RPGs. (or access to them.) But you do not routinely, see major stand offs, or anything approximating a "Stalingrad" or "Mogadishu". Gangs are about turf, but they are also about funds. So while a gang might get into a shoot out to defend its people from arrest/getting geeked during an "arrest" attempt, I don't see the whole barrens rising up against Lone Star. After all, if the Gang next door gets wiped out, well, hell, that's more territory for my gang. |
Except that today - in the US at least - there are no places like the Barrens that have no governmental control whatsoever, and that the cops aren't even required to police, because it's not worth the trouble.
The SR situation has a lot more in common with what the US forces are dealing with in some parts of Iraq than with anything having to do with moder-day gangs. There's a reason why a lot of those places haven't been turned over to Iraqi beat cops.
Edit:
Of course, my views might be colored by the fact our group is about to kick Eagle
Security in the nuts because we're all out of other options, so I don't want to think of them and others like them as powerful army-like organizations, I really don't...
This is what happens when you *don't* metagame and try to do the sensible thing and leave Bug City as things start to go to shit (but too late to just leave harmlessly) and you find yourself in a roadblock involving magicians, spirits and air support...
The way I see it, the Barrens are like Mogadishu and Fallugah. If you wanted to tame them, you'd be looking at a land war. And not with just insurgents. With every single resident who's home you're invading and leveling. It would be more like Mogadishu, except that the criminals are more heavily armed than the warlords. So you'd be in a real land war.
Nah, you'd be in for a long term infestation/insurgency problem. And maybe find a couple hives...
And if gangs "rise up" against a Lone Star intrusion, what exactly are they going to do? So they have assault rifles and ATGMs, whoop-de-fucking-doo. When it comes to a situation like a quick, well-planned, forceful raid, I seriously doubt the average ganger is going to be even as effective a combatant as the average Habr Gidr militiaman, and LS's special units have as great a technological advantage as TFR in Mog -- only the gangs lack the 500-to-1 numerical superiority and the unifying force of patridiotism, and LS the serious misunderstanding of local culture, that allowed 10/3/93 to happen.
Like for most in this thread, however, this kind of thing would be very rare in my games. The targeted organization(s) would have to be seriously hurting LSs (or any other LEOs) bottom line for them to pull off something like this.
Like for most in this thread, however, this kind of thing would be very rare in my games. The targeted organization(s) would have to be seriously hurting LSs (or any other LEOs) bottom line for them to pull off something like this.
| QUOTE |
| Cops have to be visible (I know there is under cover work but as an organisation they must be seen), criminals have a lot of practise at hiding every aspect of there operation. |
No, they don't. Rare is the criminal adept at hiding anything. 99% of the criminals out there are absolutel morons cooking meth in suburbia fumes and all that don't blow themselves up only by sheer luck. These are the idiots that rob stores then brag to others about it, and the gangers that squal in a heartbeat to get their friends nailed for a lighter sentence. This is the way it works, the rest is hollywood bullshit. The vast, vast majority of all criminals crack in questioning and turn in friends associates and everyone else to get a lighter sentence. The ones that don't are by far the exception to the rule, and they are rare. A huge chunk of arrests where I work are ciminals sold out by other criminals.
Pure, unadulterated evidence that people are stupid.
Austere, I think you severely underestimate the quality of the gangs in the Z-zones. okay, so it's true, you do have your hooders. But some of those hooders are trolls, and potentially in body armor. An entire team of Lone Star could empty small arms fire into him and he'd just keep coming. You'd need a heavy weapon for that - and while you're trying to wheel the heavy weapon around, his three orc chummers from a deeper gang that he did a big favor for show up and fire antivehicular rockets at your wheels and antipersonelle rockets at you. Then the troll ganger proceeds to bash your skulls in.
And that's to say nothing about the Crime Mall, which is more like a terrorist bazaar than anything. Remember the movie Tomorrow Never Dies? I don't think Lone Star honestly wants to mess with a place like that.
Not to mention the numerous Shadowrunners, or the pirates and smugglers. Remember, the Star ain't the only things in the air. They might find their invasion of the barrens stymied by antitank drones and T-birds.
And BitBasher, please remember that we're not dealing with Real Life here. We're dealing with Shadowrun, which is as pure a form of Hollywood bullshit as you can get without going to Hollywood.
No, the criminals are not idiots. The idiot criminals in Shadowrun are the dead ones. The ones who survive are the vast majority, and they are vast indeed, because of the population.
And that's to say nothing about the Crime Mall, which is more like a terrorist bazaar than anything. Remember the movie Tomorrow Never Dies? I don't think Lone Star honestly wants to mess with a place like that.
Not to mention the numerous Shadowrunners, or the pirates and smugglers. Remember, the Star ain't the only things in the air. They might find their invasion of the barrens stymied by antitank drones and T-birds.
And BitBasher, please remember that we're not dealing with Real Life here. We're dealing with Shadowrun, which is as pure a form of Hollywood bullshit as you can get without going to Hollywood.
No, the criminals are not idiots. The idiot criminals in Shadowrun are the dead ones. The ones who survive are the vast majority, and they are vast indeed, because of the population.
More to the point, the idiot criminals are the ones on the outskirts of the Barrens because they don't survive deeper in. As for dismissing the ATGMs, are you planning to send everyone in in separate vehicles? If not, you're going to get a few downed vehicles, and that's going to translate into everyone inside getting downed.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| But some of those hooders are trolls, and potentially in body armor. An entire team of Lone Star could empty small arms fire into him and he'd just keep coming. |
Umm, no? Heavily compensated ARs or SMGs firing bursts of APDS (standard gear for FRTs/SWATs/etc) will tear up trolls in anything less than Ballistic-10. In real life terms, that's what you got HMGs for: to tear apart large obstacles.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| You'd need a heavy weapon for that - and while you're trying to wheel the heavy weapon around [...] |
Those heavy weapons (HMGs, autocannons, directed energy weapons, multiple missile launchers, etc.) will be mounted on vehicles/drones controlled by riggers. "Wheel around" = Sensor Test to lock on, 1 init pass out of ~3 allowed per CT. Those heavy weapons wouldn't be used except for special purposes, however -- unless gangers in your world often sport armored fighting vehicles...
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| And that's to say nothing about the Crime Mall, which is more like a terrorist bazaar than anything. |
Right now IRL, if we could locate terrorist bazaars, staging a direct action against them would be no problem whatsoever -- putting together a TF and "neutralizing" the place and anyone occupying it would be a minor operation. It's just that we can't locate them, or direct action would not prove very useful.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| Not to mention the numerous Shadowrunners, or the pirates and smugglers. Remember, the Star ain't the only things in the air. They might find their invasion of the barrens stymied by antitank drones and T-birds. |
Okay, I get that you want your world to be full of (Hollywood-)bullshit, but are you sure you want to go this far with it? Because that's just insane. The last fucking thing the pros would do is to join the fighting, on any side.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| As for dismissing the ATGMs, are you planning to send everyone in in separate vehicles? If not, you're going to get a few downed vehicles, and that's going to translate into everyone inside getting downed. |
I do believe it was you yourself who pointed out to me how ridiculously easy it is in SR3 to shake off a missile with a good rigger. Taking down a high-tech fighting vehicle (air- or landborne) with a run-of-the-mill ATGM won't be easy anyway, and the riggers won't be doing any of that slowly-hovering-at-100-feet bullshit you see in the BHD movie.
If you get a lot of launches, someone is of course going to hit and cause damage. This is more likely if: 1) gangers in your game have a lot of ATGMs and are prepared and willing to use them; 2) the LEO gets dragged into a long engagement. For perspective, there were hundreds if not thousands RPG-7 rockets fired at the helos on 10/3/93 with 2 hits and 1 near-miss(?), and probably thousands more at the ground vehicles producing ~50 casualties and 5-10 break-downs of unarmored vehicles.
If it's a toss-up between being rousted by the Star just for living in their doss, and getting in on the fighting, I imagine they'd start shooting.
Besides, professionals still have to look out for their Contacts and their sources, after all. You don't need the Star's stupidity bringing down your friends and your supply lines. That makes bisuness hard.
If it's coming down to the point where the Star enters the barrens with the intention of eradicating or arresting every living thing within and restoring their brand of Law & Order-for-hire, chances are you're already surrounded. So the only way out is to fight your way out.
Besides, professionals still have to look out for their Contacts and their sources, after all. You don't need the Star's stupidity bringing down your friends and your supply lines. That makes bisuness hard.
If it's coming down to the point where the Star enters the barrens with the intention of eradicating or arresting every living thing within and restoring their brand of Law & Order-for-hire, chances are you're already surrounded. So the only way out is to fight your way out.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| If it's coming down to the point where the Star enters the barrens with the intention of eradicating or arresting every living thing within and restoring their brand of Law & Order-for-hire, chances are you're already surrounded. So the only way out is to fight your way out. |
Apparently we're talking about completely different game worlds. IMG, no LEO would ever try anything like that. I was talking about a quick raid against a small target (such as a part of one gang in one location in the barrens) with overwhelming force. Even the article linked in the first message describes a raid against only one gang.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jun 22 2005, 11:48 AM) | ||
I do believe it was you yourself who pointed out to me how ridiculously easy it is in SR3 to shake off a missile with a good rigger. Taking down a high-tech fighting vehicle (air- or landborne) with a run-of-the-mill ATGM won't be easy anyway, and the riggers won't be doing any of that slowly-hovering-at-100-feet bullshit you see in the BHD movie. |
Crap, you're right. I've been playing with the houserule that successes add to the number of successes the Rigger requires to shake the missile for so long I forgot that that's what it is. I cede this point. On the other hand, if I remember the rules correctly (and I'll have to check, it's been a long time since I last used unguided munitions), just going with a rocket instead solves a lot of that. Yes, it's ridiculous.
There's also the fact that presumably the vehicle actually has to slow to a (near) stop at some point for people to deploy.
| QUOTE |
| Okay, I get that you want your world to be full of (Hollywood-)bullshit, but are you sure you want to go this far with it? Because that's just insane. The last fucking thing the pros would do is to join the fighting, on any side. |
I disagree. If you've got a doss in the Barrens, anything that makes the Star less likely to raid anything within is good for you.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| There's also the fact that presumably the vehicle actually has to slow to a (near) stop at some point for people to deploy. |
If the raid is well planned, the gangs shouldn't have time to get their heavy weaponry prepared by that time (ie. it might not be a good idea to do such a raid if there's a suspected intel leak). There are also ways to screen the deployment area to minimize the risk there. Ground vehicles moving or stopped without cover and airborne vehicles doing overwatch would be more likely targets, unless something goes horribly wrong even before the raid is launched.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I disagree. If you've got a doss in the Barrens, anything that makes the Star less likely to raid anything within is good for you. |
So if your team had some business in the barrens, and they suddenly woke up to LS raiding a location near them with massive force (of men, equipment, magic, everything), and the raid posed no direct threat to your team, you would actually go out there and slug it out with them?
QUOTE]Except that today - in the US at least - there are no places like the Barrens that have no governmental control whatsoever, and that the cops aren't even required to police, because it's not worth the trouble.[/QUOTE]
True. But even with the popular Mogadishu reference, the attack/ambush was staged by A warlord and his followers, not ALL warlords in the city, and their followers, although there were other fighting elements, supposedly. (Bowden's book on BlackHawk Down, and several other texts suggest the presence of Al-Qaeda, Iranian Intelligence, and other substantially more dangerous elements than the common khat-chewing clansmen. ) There were also warlords supporting the arrests the Rangers were making, by either remaining neutral or intelligence. (enemy of my enemy...etc).
So I still don't think a single, or even a series of puntative raids into a Z zone would result in an all out street war (meaning ALL gangs and no-good-doers in the zone engaging the LS), although, as I said earlier, an effort to actually RETAKE the zone, may very well require a Fallujah type effort.
True. But even with the popular Mogadishu reference, the attack/ambush was staged by A warlord and his followers, not ALL warlords in the city, and their followers, although there were other fighting elements, supposedly. (Bowden's book on BlackHawk Down, and several other texts suggest the presence of Al-Qaeda, Iranian Intelligence, and other substantially more dangerous elements than the common khat-chewing clansmen. ) There were also warlords supporting the arrests the Rangers were making, by either remaining neutral or intelligence. (enemy of my enemy...etc).
So I still don't think a single, or even a series of puntative raids into a Z zone would result in an all out street war (meaning ALL gangs and no-good-doers in the zone engaging the LS), although, as I said earlier, an effort to actually RETAKE the zone, may very well require a Fallujah type effort.
The Barrens are full of people. Normal, civilian, poor, downtrodden people. LS can't just begin throwing shells or missiles into the Barrens. They'd need very good intel, or the press would pick up on the dead civilians, SIN-less or not.
If LS invades the Barrens, in an attempt to restore order, they would have to take a "bite" at a time, trying to demilitarize the area. Pretty much what they are trying in Baghdad, cutting the city into zones and controlling traffic.
And much like in Irak and any other historic occupation, the resistance will toll killed cops/soldiers every day. You have to turn the people on your side. Only then will they begin to give LS info on gang hideouts and weapon caches.
And in SR, where a SIN-less citizen has less chance of getting a real SIN and social security, than a snowball has of surviving in the elemental plane of fire, I just fail to see any bargaining chips in LS's pocket to buy the local populaces support.
Secondly, the occupation will require massive manpower. Meaning the AAA, AA and A areas will see reduced service, leading to more crime from the more well organized gangs.
No, I do not think the gangs will all unite in a turf war. But yes, all the gangs will resist strongly and there will be frequent local shootouts, and loads of hidden traps and bombs.
LS does not have the economic incentive to bring law and order to the Barrens. And the city of Seattle couldn't afford it either. It would be forced to deal with the millions of SIN-less that live in there.
If LS invades the Barrens, in an attempt to restore order, they would have to take a "bite" at a time, trying to demilitarize the area. Pretty much what they are trying in Baghdad, cutting the city into zones and controlling traffic.
And much like in Irak and any other historic occupation, the resistance will toll killed cops/soldiers every day. You have to turn the people on your side. Only then will they begin to give LS info on gang hideouts and weapon caches.
And in SR, where a SIN-less citizen has less chance of getting a real SIN and social security, than a snowball has of surviving in the elemental plane of fire, I just fail to see any bargaining chips in LS's pocket to buy the local populaces support.
Secondly, the occupation will require massive manpower. Meaning the AAA, AA and A areas will see reduced service, leading to more crime from the more well organized gangs.
No, I do not think the gangs will all unite in a turf war. But yes, all the gangs will resist strongly and there will be frequent local shootouts, and loads of hidden traps and bombs.
LS does not have the economic incentive to bring law and order to the Barrens. And the city of Seattle couldn't afford it either. It would be forced to deal with the millions of SIN-less that live in there.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| So if your team had some business in the barrens, and they suddenly woke up to LS raiding a location near them with massive force (of men, equipment, magic, everything), and the raid posed no direct threat to your team, you would actually go out there and slug it out with them? |
Yes. Anything else encourages similar action in the future, whereas direct action improves general working conditions by reducing police morale and resources.
If the action looked too hot to handle, it would be time to browse through the directory of HTR team homes (especially those with families) or visit some nearby stations. Leave them a present to come back to. One way or another, they pay in blood for every step they take.
~J
| QUOTE (Sicarius) |
| But even with the popular Mogadishu reference, the attack/ambush was staged by A warlord and his followers, not ALL warlords in the city, and their followers, although there were other fighting elements, supposedly. |
The TFR did the attacking, clan HG just did (a piss-poor job of) the defending. Considering the target and the routes in and out, no other fighting force in or around Mogadishu than that of Aidid/SNA/HG and the local militias (pretty much all of which were fighting) could have taken part unless they'd have pushed en masse towards the UN and TFR HQs and central Mog.
The strength-at-arms of SNA/HG and the militias around central Mogadishu was tens of thousands. Counting everyone armed and willing to fight (=to fire at) TFR should they come their way, you get a 6-digit figure. Compare that with 450 for all of the TFR.
Since TFR was there to fight against Aidid, SNA and HG, the other warlords and clans had no cause to fight them. You'd have to be really fucking stupid, and an incredibly bad diplomat, to engage in low-intensity fighting in a part of the world where everybody wants to kill you. (Although in central Mog, most did.)
Not that this has anything to do with possible raiding of gangs in barrens in the SR world. The gangs don't number in the hundreds of thousands and they don't make up all of the society, not in the barrens and not anywhere else. They're no more united than the clans of Somalia, they have much less reason to engage in stand-up fighting against anyone, and certainly against a huge LEO.
Odd. I'd say no. After all, your neighbors wouldn't do the same for you, and really, they aren't here to clean the place up (and if they are, I'm sure there'll be a new scum pit soon enough). They'll be gone soon, some neighbors will be gone, and life will return to normal.
If it's repeated, maybe I'll begin to complain, but really, I don't know what they're here for. Maybe they finally found that terrorist, Bill Gates. Who knows. But shooting back sure isn't going to help me at all.
If it's repeated, maybe I'll begin to complain, but really, I don't know what they're here for. Maybe they finally found that terrorist, Bill Gates. Who knows. But shooting back sure isn't going to help me at all.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Yes. Anything else encourages similar action in the future, whereas direct action improves general working conditions by reducing police morale and resources. |
So I guess either you play in a superhero-type game (in power level, though obviously not in moral guidelines) or your group is suicidal? A few groups of runners vs. the combined might of all the special units and Heavy Gear of a huge LEO from the surrounding areas doesn't sound like a fair fight.
Going after the personnel of the LEO, especially the high ranking ones, after-the-fact (or before, if you have some kick-ass intel) in their civilian lives would be less idiotic, but I still have to wonder how runners willing to risk their careers and their lives to protect some over-zealous street gang they've got little to nothing to do with manage to survive in the shadows.
Runners have turf, too.
And like the gangs, they don't appreciate being rousted. Say the pigs roust your doss? Even if your advanced intel lets you abandon the place, you poured a LOT of money into it, unless you only just rented it for a month, last month.
I woulden't appreciate it. So yes, if I had advanced intel, I'd leak the word like a friggin' firehose. I'd want every ganger and terrorist and other general ne'er-do-well in the Barrens ready to repel Lone Star. With overwhelming firepower. We're talking prepared ambush with antivehicular rockets and bombs and stuff.
And like the gangs, they don't appreciate being rousted. Say the pigs roust your doss? Even if your advanced intel lets you abandon the place, you poured a LOT of money into it, unless you only just rented it for a month, last month.
I woulden't appreciate it. So yes, if I had advanced intel, I'd leak the word like a friggin' firehose. I'd want every ganger and terrorist and other general ne'er-do-well in the Barrens ready to repel Lone Star. With overwhelming firepower. We're talking prepared ambush with antivehicular rockets and bombs and stuff.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| So yes, if I had advanced intel, I'd leak the word like a friggin' firehose. |
Well, that'd be one way to make sure the raid doesn't happen, at least not the way it's originally planned.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| I'd want every [...] terrorist [...] in the Barrens ready to repel Lone Star. |
What have terrorists got to do with this anyway? What the hell do they care about a LEO raiding a gang? It doesn't make any sense to stage an attack against a heavily armed, even better trained, and incredibly well supported force either when you might as well attack unprotected civilian targets.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| With overwhelming firepower. |
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| I still have to wonder how runners willing to risk their careers and their lives to protect some over-zealous street gang they've got little to nothing to do with manage to survive in the shadows. |
It's not about protecting the street gang. Cops in the Barrens are a threat to everyone. If they aren't after you now, they might be after you later, and if they're willing to come into the Barrens to get you you've already lost.
~J
holy crap, how often do you GMs let runners kill cops? In all the games I've run throughout the years I've only allowed the death of cops to happen at the hands of runners/gangers only a few times. When a cop gets killed on duty, that's some major shiz right there. It's like punching a hornet's nest, yes, even for Lonestar. The cop's buddies get pissed, kid gloves come off, and somebody always takes the fall...hard. In my games your best bet is always to evade the cops, keep it off their radar, grease a lot of palms, and dissapear into the shadows to come back another day. You never, ever, want to kill a cop in my game unless it is absolutely unavoidable, but as a GM I will allow you some way out, unless your running like an absolute moron, and I don't tend to run for players like that. If you do kill a cop in my game, you know that heat is coming, so you catch a quick way out of town and start over. I'm talking going all out to dissapear, full surgical reconstruction, new IDs, the whole 9, but that only goes so far when it comes to DNA evidence. Only cowboys kill cops, for fun or otherwise, and they tend to end up dying a horrible death or doing a ton of time as a result. You can take out standard corp. security all day long in my world, it's all fair game on extraterritoriality, but you don't ever kill cops.
As for the article, yeah, the last cop was killed two years ago, but it takes time to get evidence, arrest people, slowly make your way up the foodchain, and then get all the feds to join in on a serious raid like this. They might have even waited until they knew the gangers had a bunch of drugs or guns there to make sentencing that much more heavy.
As for the cops/feds levelling that kind of serious firepower on a group and what kind of effect it is going to have, just think about what happened in Waco when the feds went in and it turned into a complete public relations disaster for them because they didn't do it right. What about what happened in that school in Russia a couple of years ago? The russians laid some waste to that place and the hostages, and I remember hearing about it halfway across the world about how bad it went. Just some stuff to think about.
As for the article, yeah, the last cop was killed two years ago, but it takes time to get evidence, arrest people, slowly make your way up the foodchain, and then get all the feds to join in on a serious raid like this. They might have even waited until they knew the gangers had a bunch of drugs or guns there to make sentencing that much more heavy.
As for the cops/feds levelling that kind of serious firepower on a group and what kind of effect it is going to have, just think about what happened in Waco when the feds went in and it turned into a complete public relations disaster for them because they didn't do it right. What about what happened in that school in Russia a couple of years ago? The russians laid some waste to that place and the hostages, and I remember hearing about it halfway across the world about how bad it went. Just some stuff to think about.
Do you make cops get paid meaningfully more than janitors? 'Cause they don't in canon.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| It's not about protecting the street gang. Cops in the Barrens are a threat to everyone. If they aren't after you now, they might be after you later, and if they're willing to come into the Barrens to get you you've already lost. |
It just seems to me like it'd be far more cost-effective, and much less likely to get you killed, for runners to simply avoid being a huge pain in the ass for an organization capable of performing such a raid than to try and discourage said organization from performing them, since trying to discouraging them is going to really piss them off, whether it actually manages to scare them as well or not.
shadow_scholar: Beslan was a massive hostage situation which went completely haywire and the military went in without much of a plan -- I don't want to know where you heard about the Russians laying "waste to that place and the hostages". I wouldn't blame you for using some features of Waco (the media leakage and coverage bits in particular) if you play out an LS "intervention" into the barrens in your game, however.
That means not being a Shadowrunner. We can start there, sure, but that sorta defeats the premise of the game.
Put it another way: some of you have said it's ok to hit security guards, but cops are off-limits. Unless you're hitting a big corp (AA and up or very large A), odds are the corp doesn't have an in-house security force. That means they contract out. Guess who they probably contract to? If you said Lone Star, give yourself a cookie. If you said Knight Errant give yourself a cookie too, as that's second most likely. Guess what? They're the cops too.
The cops aren't just the ones in the police station and walking the beat, or the ones sitting in the HTR vehicles. They're also the ones stationed at the doors of that corp building, or watching the monitors at that other building down the street. That guard in the back room at your apartment building? Lone Star. The guard at the local supermarket? Lone Star. If you don't kill cops, you're in the wrong line of work.
~J
Put it another way: some of you have said it's ok to hit security guards, but cops are off-limits. Unless you're hitting a big corp (AA and up or very large A), odds are the corp doesn't have an in-house security force. That means they contract out. Guess who they probably contract to? If you said Lone Star, give yourself a cookie. If you said Knight Errant give yourself a cookie too, as that's second most likely. Guess what? They're the cops too.
The cops aren't just the ones in the police station and walking the beat, or the ones sitting in the HTR vehicles. They're also the ones stationed at the doors of that corp building, or watching the monitors at that other building down the street. That guard in the back room at your apartment building? Lone Star. The guard at the local supermarket? Lone Star. If you don't kill cops, you're in the wrong line of work.
~J
Oh, right, and I remember one of your threads about how killing all the sec guards you can is a good thing for shadowrunners.
Well, let's just say that we play the game in different ways. While I'm GMing, it pays for the players to keep a bit more to the "shadow"-bit, so they don't have to do a whole lot more of the "running" with a regiment-sized force on their tails.
Well, let's just say that we play the game in different ways. While I'm GMing, it pays for the players to keep a bit more to the "shadow"-bit, so they don't have to do a whole lot more of the "running" with a regiment-sized force on their tails.
Kagentoshi, you forgot about Bob's Discount Guards. 
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