 Taking another look at LoneStar, So, you think you got away... |
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 Jun 23 2005, 05:37 AM
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#76
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454  |
i think you're employing faulty logic there. more people voting would also mean more people you can convince to vote for you, so it's really a null issue. revitalizing the barrens is an accomplishment that would pretty much guarantee another term for the politician who spearheaded the project, so i'm inclined to believe that if lone star is capable of carrying out such a task without suffering heavy setbacks, they would do it. |
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Jun 23 2005, 06:12 AM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 7-December 04 Member No.: 6,873 |
The Barrens would chew the 'Star up and spit them out.
If the Barrens that most GM's run is any indication, every single goddamn block has a gang and atleast five guys with a pistols skill of 3+ with some Ares HP gear, more if it is a good gang; way more if you happen to come across the hiding place of a team of elite frag-off runners. It would be like vietnam. |
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Jun 23 2005, 06:39 AM
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#78
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
No. It would be like Iraq at the worst. For it to be like Veitnam their would ave to be organized resistance. There would be resistance, sure, but it certainly wouldn't be organized. For a prolonged occupation and cleanup they would need military support from the metroplex guard and the authority to hand out SINs like they were pez. The former would require a some politiking. The latter would require a lot of politiking. If the actuaries looked at the numbers and decided it was a good idea LS would start renegoating its contract in that direction. However, the risk and the resource commitment are great and the profit is realitivly low unless they can do some fantastic negoation so the actuaries probably won't recomend it any time soon. |
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Jun 23 2005, 06:40 AM
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#79
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Just a couple of thoughts to throw out real quick:
The Star is qualified as a AA corp , so yeah, they do have the ability to raid an entire Z zone. An individual city force may not, but they do have assets to move around. However, they most likely wouldn't. Because if you were to do this, then you would have two options tacticly. One, you can charge in and let some of the targets (gangers, SINless, so on) get through your raid. And where are they going to go? You';ll have z-zone residents running to hide in the areas that you ARE paid to protect, and most likely commiting a lot more crimes, since they probably had to leave everything they had behind. 2) they can well them all in, and let none escape and a) shoot everyone, and get fired basically for slaughtering people. Doesn't matter if they're SIN less without rights. They'd catch crap for shooting hundreds of dogs in the street, much less people. or b) arrest every single person, haul them all in, and either sort through them, which would be horribly ineffective, or lock them all up, which would be a logistical nightmare. of course, the whole point here wasn't to raid the barrens with tanks and take out all the gangs. What it was , was ashow of force, taking out one gang, and doing it very thouroughly. Yes, it was for two cops, that died years ago. Could just be a convenient excuse to do something that needed to be done. But they're not dumb enough to start an all out war. This is something that you can do to maybe two or three gangs, before the others either lay seriously low, or seriously arm up, or both. But it makes them think twice about their actions, especially if it happens a second time. ANd that's the point. |
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Jun 23 2005, 09:30 AM
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#80
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I don't think it would happen.
After all, the Barrens are home to more than just gangers with pistols of 3+ and Ares Predators. They're home to Shadowrunners, among Shadowrunners including Faces, and what are Faces good at? Persuasion. Like say, persuading all the gangs to band together to protect their home. The Z-zones might as well be a country entirely seperate from the UCAS, like the NAN, but without any real law and order within them. They're lawless. Lone Star going into a Z-zone, and I don't care what the official laws on the books say, might as well be a military invasion. That's what it would have to be. You're attacking people's homes. People who are trying to live as best they can with the fantastically shit-tastic deal handed out by the people with SINs to the SINless, like them. People who's only recourse is crime to survive, and their liberties and freedoms are only as strong as the hotloads in their gun. So yeah. Lone Star going into a Z-Zone would be a Mogadishu, if not a Vietnam. Lone Star, as a whole, might have the firepower to do it, but as the wars in Vietnam and Iraq have shown us, such operations are hardly cost-effective. Rather, they're enormous money-sinks, and can turn a record surplus into a record deficet. And unlike the United States Federal Government, or even the UCAS Federal Government, Lone Star does not have the authority to raise taxes and cut social programs to pay for their warmongering. So they'd have to boost their prices for service into the "You gotta be slottin' me" range, which would result in Knight-Errant Security becoming the new police forces for many major metropolitan areas. So yeah. Hyzmarca has it right, but I think you'd need more than the authority to hand out SINs like Pez. Remember, Lone Star can already issue Criminal SINs. If you're really fragging desperate for a SIN to use for most normal person operations, like buying groceries, just spend a night in the drunk tank, and if you're lucky enough to not dissapear into the organ donation banks, bam, SIN. People turn to crime for a reason. Very few people want to break laws, people, and things, just because. Many, like gangers, turn to crime such as gang-banging, for survival and prosperity and security. A lone man in the Barrens is prey. Five men together with guns are predators, even if it is a harsh existance, it's better than prey. Why, exactly, do most of your Shadowrunners run the Shadows, anyhow? How many of them turned to crime because they're general anarchists or villians? How many run the Shadows for lack of any other way to survive, grow, and prosper in the world? How many are hooders that run the Shadows for a cause? I'd wager that the survival and prosperty types and the cause types far outnumber the villians and anarchists. So you'd need more than a PEZ-dispensor of SINs. You'd need to work on revitalizing the Barrens. One way to start, actually, would be to actively start recruiting in the Z-zones. If you can take gangers and put in the discipline to be a Lone Star Beat Cop, not only have you taken a criminal off the street, but you've got someone who's a perfect shoe-in for your security forces. |
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Jun 23 2005, 02:06 PM
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#81
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I guess I'm talking to a wall. |
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Jun 23 2005, 03:11 PM
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#82
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If you see gangs as mere street gangs, maybe they should not have the firepower to stand against law enforcement. But if you can see the gangs portrayed in SR as militia, then I think you ought to see the point that in a Z-Zone, law enforcement is ineffectual and at the mercy of the local street gang.
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Jun 23 2005, 03:53 PM
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#83
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I disagree. They ARE AA. They can afford to clear out at minimum a good sized section of city. They can CERTAINLY afford to clear out a few city blocks! And that's what the discussion seemed to originally stem from, what would you do if they're rolling in for a very precise raid after a few people or a gang? That doesn't require an army. They might not be able to afford to HOLD it, but that's a very different, much more difficult question, one they haven't been asked. As it stands, the poor people stay where they are, out of sight, out of mind. The rich people aren't paying extra in welfare, medical service or protective services. And while the mayor could ask Lone Star to reclaim the barrens, it would require either taking some major loans, or raising taxes significantly. It would lead to an increase in crime in the nicer areas, it would stretch Lone Star's protection, it would cut down on many of the cheap pleasures the poor voters like so much (sex, drugs and BTLs). Really, the only person who MIGHT win, aside from Lone Star, who would charge a huge fee for all this, would be the single ork mom trying to support six kids with no medical insurance, who regularly has to deal with gangers stealing her stuff. And even in her case, she can't sell her body any more, and so whats she gonna do? Considering it would probably cost a few million to launch all the choppers, pay the death costs, etc. for a raid on a few city blocks in the barrens, I doubt it'll happen unless it's a major thing. Someone got a nuke and is going to use it in downtown Seattle. The mayor's daughter was kidnapped and is sitting in a safehouse there. It's not going to be on behalf of old Joe Shnitzler, who took two in the line of duty. If runners are the targets, they really should have known better than to still be around Seattle in the first place. |
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Jun 23 2005, 04:07 PM
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#84
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you guys are talking about two completely different things. half of you are talking about LS performing a quick raid--rolling out in heavy gear, driving through Puyallup to a specific location, hitting that location, and going back home. the other half of you are talking about declaring war on the Barrens--moving in and taking over the entire area(s) from the gangs that occupy it. and then you're confused as to why the other side doesn't get what you're saying.
a raid in force is entirely possible, and probably happens fairly often (once every month or two). kicking all the gangs out of the Barrens is certainly outside the capability of Seattle's LS forces. if every city that LS holds a contract in has a force similar in size to Seattle's, then it's probably not outside the capability of LS as a whole--but pulling all those forces out of the other cities will lose LS a hell of a lot of contracts (as in, every contract except Seattle), so it's not going to happen anyway. |
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Jun 23 2005, 04:15 PM
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#85
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Even a quick raid with overwhelming force seems implausible when they abandon major highways to go-gangs every night.
~J |
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Jun 23 2005, 04:52 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
I checked my NAGNA last night, it didn't have any info regarding economic statistics. However, the Seattle Sourcebook did, and it seemed the unemployment rate was around 26%. Not so different from the Depression, when the unemployment reached a high of 23%.
This is so far the most plausible reason things may be as bad as some of you guys think. But I don't really believe people would allow things would have gotten as bad as the picture you guys paint.
No way corps would risk that much. These aren't guys with their own private armies at every facility, they're just corporations with security staff on hand. If things really are that bad people would have rioted a long, long time ago. If the situation seemed to get worse, and the government and its municipal security force was truly that weak, man, there wouldn't be riots anymore, there'd be revolution. The corps need the government to handle the masses because, if not, the bigger that gap gets between the haves and the have-nots the bigger the chance for a country shattering change. Sorry, man, but a squad of corp guys with guns isn't going to hold against hundreds or even thousands of hungry, pissed off people. The masses don't just go hungry and die while the corp folks watch from their ivory towers, that poor majority is going to do something about it. What do they have to lose, they're already starving, right?
That's not even possible. Without the middle class to buy products then the corps die. You can't have an economy, you can't have a society, without a strong middle class. With only a handful of rich people to buy products those products become enormously expensive and eventually the corps would starve themselves. They'd stop producing those expensive products because they'd cost so much no one would buy them, not even the rich, who really aren't that many people. Corps need Joe Average to buy their products, otherwise how would they make their money? If there was no Joe Average to buy that stuff then R&D would cease to exist because the corps wouldn't have the money to spend on it. They'd fall back on cheap, easy to produce products that people needed, not just ones they wanted. Forward progession and technological advancement would stop. All of the sudden the state of the art would begin to slip backward as the economy collapsed because any money they had would become worthless. Then you'd have anarchy. It would level the playing field. It would then fall on tangible resources being regarded as valuable. All of the sudden the people considered "rich" would be people who had food to eat and the means to protect it and those people would begin to trade with one another. Civilization would have to start over from the beginning. No more wiz toys, no more refined products, you'd just have a society at the equivalent technological level of the dark ages. But since Shadowrun says that those wiz toys and refined products do exist that tells me that things cannot possible be as bad as some of you guys think they are. It just isn't believable. |
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Jun 23 2005, 04:51 PM
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#87
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I think most folks here are giving gangers way too much credit. The gangs that get the limelight in SR are the big, military weapon wielding gangs, not the small disjointed tiny turf fragmented gangs that make up the majority of the gang members.
Furthermore, outside of top tier gangs in general gang members are morons. Idiots. They care about nothing but "rep" and have no forward thinking or tactical ability. They have the "I'd rather die" to prove how tough I am mentality. I can't impress upon you folks how stupid and shortsighted these people are. There's no good reason for Lone Star to clear out either barrens at all. There's no public outcry to do so, the areas are accepted as they are and forgotten. They are legally classified a Z zone and left that way. It's a self cleaning oven. For the majority of all cases gangers kill other gangers, and that's it. Lone Star could definitely if they wanted to perform a large scale cleansing of the barrens, they are a multibillion dollar multinational extraterritorial megacorporation one step below the big 10. The catch is that there is absolutely no reason for them to do so. |
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Jun 23 2005, 05:10 PM
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#88
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
again, you're talking about taking and holding. if LS erects defenses and hunkers down in gang territory--or, in this case, go-gang territory--then they're asking to get hit with everything the gangs have. if LS moves in, makes a quick strike, and then backs out, there's nothing for the gangs to target. besides, what better way to maintain your presence in the public's mind than to have big, violent gangs that you vailantly keep contained? if LS is that ineffectual, why haven't the gangs overrun Downtown? |
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Jun 23 2005, 05:22 PM
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#89
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Just look at the weaponry included with the Troll Ganger archetype in the SR3 BBB. Chains, heavy pistol...whoop.
I believe it also says something ike "Guns are good backup, you gotta pound em with your fist to prove a damn thing." No rocket launchers or LMG's though. |
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Jun 23 2005, 05:55 PM
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#90
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 103 |
Trying to coordinate all the gangs to work together is simply not going to happen no matter how skilled your Face is. Everyone is going to look at the situation and simultaneously realize, "If one of our rival gangs joins in this effort and we don't, they'll wear themselves out. Then we can roll right over them and gain more turf!" The alliance falls apart, and any gang stupid enough to join the revolution will get stomped by those who did not. Lone Star comes in, wipes out its one target, and leaves. The turf lines change a little bit, but life in the Barrens goes on like normal.
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Jun 23 2005, 06:14 PM
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#91
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Simple then, once the coalition is formed of the various gangs willing to join, you level the turf of the strongest gang that didn't. the other stand-offs will hurry to join then.
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Jun 23 2005, 06:14 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Holding a major highway at night should be pretty easy - it's flat asphalt, with no cover, with tons of choke-points (on and off ramps) that can be held to control much larger areas. Just put some people on the ground supported by a decent network of strato drones (which will, at night, basically be invisible sniping positions as far as gangers are concerned) and you're in business. That, canonically, LS isn't able to do that speaks a lot about either the cops' abilities, or those of whichever SR writer came up with that idea... |
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Jun 23 2005, 07:19 PM
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#93
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Or that really no one needs those particular highways at night (I mean really, if you're a trucking company, do you send your shipment from the NE, around the barrens, through farms and on into the heart of Seattle, or do you send it from the SE, past the radioactive wastes of an old meltdown currently claimed by a number of violent gangs? Alright, now which route are you going to ask LS to protect?)
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Jun 23 2005, 09:11 PM
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#94
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Argh, listening to all these arguments back and forth, sheesh and some people are adamant like brick walls in their views. Look, different styles, different games, and especially different views/outtakes on the situation. Some like it more dystopia, others more realistic, etc... Just take the following stuff into consideration.
Look, there's lots of folks in the barrens, not all of them are in gangs. Some are scraping by and look up to the high life they see in trids. Nuyen talks. Lonestar and gangs will both have lots of connection in the barrens in the form of snitches, etc... But not only that, some folks do not want a ganger lifestyle, they are living in fear as the gangers are outside their windows running amok. Yes, some gangs are supposedly street protection, etc... but that's not the case for all. Will they help out the gang when Lonestar raids? Bulldrek. And as some folks argue, Lonestar is making a raid. Not all gangs have the heavy weaponry and if they pass by their turf into another rival gang's territory for a raid. You think they'll aid the rival gang. The same gang who killed your best buds from childhood, who cut off your cousin's hands? Oh heck no. You're gonna kick back and enjoy the fireworks and after Lonestar leaves, you go in and you kick the gangers who escaped the raid. Payback is a freaking slitch. I hope you <insert rival gangers> burn in hell. Most of the gangers are small time fries. 25 members or so. They see the LS taskforce driving through, they're gonna crap in their pants... That is if they see it, many are probably drunk and passed out after that nova drek party earlier in the night or zoning on btl chips, or sleeping. They are not all gathered and ready at a moment's notice. They're disorganized and if the taskforce goes by without anybody seeing them, they won't know what's going on till the heavy drek hits (that is, if it's going on only a few blocks away, and again maybe the drek is in the rival gangs territory, eh, maybe it's a gang war not involving them. Who cares then? Unless they have a tight alliance, but hell, maybe not, especially if they've been fighting over turf). Lonestar has the assets for mages, elementals, lots and lots of drones (with weapons!), Citymasters, hardened body armor, skilled training, tactical computers, you name it. You keep arguing about the whole Iraq situation, fine, but the forces can still do raids. The terrorists there cannot fight back to a standstill, they have to do a underground guerilla fighting, hit and fades. The argument of Mogadishu, hell, we've learned. You think Lonestar and all military and security forces hasn't learned a few things about urban combat in the world of Shadowrun? That along with as someone mentioned irregular forces and snitches. Guess what? If they want to make it look less official? Hire some mercs who'll go in discretely, go in, kick some hoop. You don't have to do as much paperwork, you got the perps dead, no dead corp employees (those mercs are contractors), everyone's happy. There are plenty of shadowrunners/mercs who'll be happy to do some wetwork who are major hoopkickers. Some are sadistic enough and will enjoy the slaughter of an entire gang. edit: Hell, if ye can find info via the snitches and you provide info to some Shadowrunners who's friends/families were victims of that particular gang. Use your imagination. end edit. Some in the barrens wouldn't mind if their street might be taken back under 'civilization'. Maybe they can get a menial job, but hey, there's the offchance they can get a SIN and move up in the world. Hey, it's a chance, so would they help the gangers, who's been harassing your niece, and their stray bullets from some firefights have killed your mom? Hey, that Lonestar undercover guy was nice and heck, he even gave you some nuyen. Maybe you can keep it up and get enough to get some education for your kids, maybe they can get a SIN, get out of this hellhole existence... As for giving up part of the cities, I agree with Nezumi's argument. Hell, if none of the citizens are there (or supposed to be there) in the evenings and it's not an expensive piece of real estate (like the extreme parts of the highways), why bother maintaining a presence. It's not cost effective enough. The gangers are gonna attack each other over turf and they'll kill each other. No big loss. |
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Jun 26 2005, 12:16 AM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 7-December 04 Member No.: 6,873 |
A raid will work, I think we all agree on that. It is the occupation that would fail. Not every gang has LMG's and rocket launchers, in fact only a rare few do. But as soon as the 'Star starts taking and occupying territory the gangs that have the LMG's and rocket launchers will start hitting Lonestar back, or at the very least they will be entrenched when the 'Star gets to them.
A lone sniper can hold back a platoon of guys for days in a city sufficiently ruined and hard to navigate. |
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Jun 26 2005, 01:03 AM
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#96
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Not really in a world where we can send a greatform elemental that's immune to bullets to beat him to death, commanded by an astral patrol that can spot living things like clockwork. magic tips things heavily in favor of the Star. |
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Jun 26 2005, 01:12 AM
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#97
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
And if the mage isn't available, I'm sure the Star wouldn't mind calling in a T-bird to level the building he's hiding in.
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Jun 26 2005, 01:13 AM
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#98
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Until your elementals and precious mages get their butts handed to them by street shamans and rogue mages.
Remember, magic is not an exclusive venue of the Star. In fact, it's something more likely to be in the hands of the enemy than not; hardware is a thing, it can be repressed, destroyed, or too expensive for street scummies to have. Magic comes to those it comes to, without caring if they're rich or poor, criminal or cop.... |
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Jun 26 2005, 01:15 AM
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#99
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Frosty: They've tried that before. Not only is a T-bird a prime target for AA, in fact THE prime target, but trying to kill a lone sniper with an aircraft is damn-nigh impossible. Close air support is good at sowing destructiong amongst infantry squads and bringing down death onto tanks, but singling out a sniper amidst an urban ruin? Not so easily done.
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Jun 26 2005, 01:16 AM
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#100
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
It's alot easier to lure the ones that do end up with te ability if you can offer a 6 figure salary and access to some of the most advanced libraries, lodges and equimpment around.
Speaking of which, there's a good chance the Star magic will have more access to Foci, conjuring materials, etc. etc. |
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