 .50AE and Other Monsters, What are they designed for? |
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 Jun 22 2005, 12:05 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722  |
I was reading the heavier weapons thread, and there was a certain amount of criticism being levelled at the DE .50AE pistol - how heavy it is, the heavy recoil, the lack of concealibility etc etc. This isn't the first time I've heard this, and since I'm not a firearms expert by any stretch it prompts some questions to those who are. I'd appreciate a layman's overview, although I'm happy to try and tackled technical links :)
1) What is the point of the monster pistols? In real terms, what role are they actually designed to fill? 2) From what I see, our resident gurus don't much rate monster pistols. What calibres do you rate, and are there any particular handguns you favour? 3) If you were a shadowrunner, what calibre handgun would you typically carry on a "day to day" basis? Why? 4) Assuming you were using a rifle or smg as your main weapon, what calibre handgun would you carry on a run? Why? 5) If you were a pistol adept, what calibre handgun would you carry on a run? Why? 6) If you were a pistol adept, would you carry a different calibre handgun for day to day purposes? If so, why? |
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Jun 22 2005, 12:14 PM
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#2
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The same role as a Corvette? Compensating for certain....shortcomings? ;) |
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Jun 22 2005, 12:14 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112 |
Well, I'm no expert, but the answer to #1 would be, a) hunting pistols, b) novelty items, c) a little compensation. ;)
As for 2) .45 ACP is rated as the premier man-stopping round, right? 9mm also seems to be pretty high up there as well. EDIT: Beat me to it. |
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Jun 22 2005, 12:53 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Seems I'm the early bird this morning, so I'll see if I can hold the fort until either Raygun or AE get here. '-)
Depends on what firearms you are talking about. Some of the really heavy caliber handguns (.500 S&W Revolver, Thompson Contender, etc.) were deigned for hunting, or for defense against large game (Bears, Lions, etc.). As for the design purposes of the really heavy automatics, I'll leave that to others much more qualified than me. However, I will say that weapons like the Desert Eagle .50 AE has a considerable range advantage over most other handguns. However if range is really a factor, you shouldn't be using a handgun in the first place.
It all depends on what you plan on shooting. For a defensive carry pistol, anything in .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 SIG is probably sufficient. Even a 9mm with expanding ammo should work for you. However, in a game like SR with the proliferation of concealable body armor and things like Trolls, I would probaby START with a 10mm Auto and work my way up from there.
Day to day basis? Like I said, in this world, probably a .45 ACP or something similar. In Shadowrun, at least a 10mm Auto. I would want something that is small enough to be concealable but not so small that it hurts my effectiveness with the weapon. For example, I used to own an HK USP .45, full size. Pretty large pistol, but VERY comfortable to shoot. A friend of mine owned a Para-Ordnance subcompact .45 pistol. His gun was about 1/3 the size of mine, but was a pain in the ass to shoot. My bottom finger had to dangle below the grip, and the recoil on such a small firearm was a beast. To me, it's not worth it to carry something you don't want to shoot.
Probably the same thing I would carry on a day to day basis. Either that, or I would ditch the handgun and carry extra Rifle/SMG mags. But if I was Shadowrunning, I would probably carry a .45 ACP...preferably one with a threaded barrel so I could mount a suppressor. The .45 is one of the few calibers that is already subsonic, so it is pretty freaking quiet coming out of a suppressed handgun.
Though I've been playing SR for years, it's really hard for me to think that way. I've always viewed pistols as defensive weapons. It's something you use when it's all you have, or all you can take with you. If given a choice, I'd take a Rifle/Shotgun/SMG everytime. But if I was a "Pistol Adept", I'd probably carry something full-size, chambered in 10mm Auto.
Maybe. In your day to day routine, concealability and comfort are your primary concerns for a carry gun, especially since you won't doing more than just carrying it 99.9% of the time. I can't imagine something like a Desert Eagle being comfortable to carry for long periods of time. I would probably carry something chambered in either .40S&W or .45ACP, and it would have to be a compact model. Probably something like this. |
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Jun 22 2005, 01:25 PM
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#5
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
If we assume that he'd be bypassing armor on every shot, I'd go for dual Baby Brownings, .25 ACP |
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Jun 22 2005, 01:38 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
In the world of SR with orks and trolls wandering about and the commoness of armor, I'd expect heavy hitters like 10mm auto to make a comeback. Also, I'd expect more interest in low caliber armor penetrators like 5.7mm FN. In the modern day, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357 SIG are all fine handgun loads. 9mm may be a bit too light a load, but with good ammunition you should still do fine.
Since it would be concealed carry, I'd go for a 'compact', but not 'sub compact', hand gun. It would be double action only (or an HK 'grip cocker' or Glocks semi-DA or some similar system) so that there would be no need to fiddle arround with external safeties. It would be chambered in at least .40 S&W, and if I could handle it, I'd be looking for something in .357 SIG to 10mm auto. Full sized tacital pistols like the USP are too big to carry concealed all the time. In SR terms, a USP would probably have a conceal of 5, with a compact pistols a 6-7, and a subcompact pistol a 7-8.
If you have a long arm, there are few reasons to carry a pistol around as well. One might be to have a ready silenced weapon to take out guard dogs, sentries, etc. So something quiet. (The USP/Mk 23 with silencer would do fine).
If you are a pistol adept, you might want to look into something like the FN five-seven. If penetrates armor much better than a regular pistol, and your mad pistol skills should give you better shot placement, helping make up for the reduced damage.
For 'day to day' use, you need something comfortable and concealable, the full sized pistols (especially 2 of them) would be hard to hide on your person. Ideally, you would want your tactical pistol and your carry pistol to be in the same 'family' so that there will be no momentary confusion about the placement of the controls on the pistol, so going for a full sized USP for tactial and a USP compact for every day carry would be a pretty good deal. |
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Jun 22 2005, 02:08 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 11-April 05 From: 123 Anytown, USA Member No.: 7,316 |
[quote] 1) What is the point of the monster pistols? In real terms, what role are they actually designed to fill?[/quote] Originally the gun was designed, by J. Lindig, J. Skildam and H. Z. Skildam, for; target, silhouette shooting, and hunting. [quote] 2) From what I see, our resident gurus don't much rate monster pistols. What calibres do you rate, and are there any particular handguns you favour?[/quote] The major problem, IMHO, with "monster" pistols is follow-up shots. The recoil on these weapons is extreme which makes the second shot, in real life conditions, longer in coming and less acurate as well. Granted, if you hit with the first round there isn't usually a need for a second as the massive amount of energy dumped into the target generally destroys it. [qoute] 3) If you were a shadowrunner, what calibre handgun would you typically carry on a "day to day" basis? Why?[/quote] Either a 9mm or .40 cal glock (I know, I know). They are small, concealable, accurate, reliable, and carry a high number of rounds per clip. Trolls aren't armored everywhere. :eek: [quote] 4) Assuming you were using a rifle or smg as your main weapon, what calibre handgun would you carry on a run? Why?[/quote] It would depend on the nature of the run. Quiet: silenced glock 27(.40 cal), Loud: Colt .45 ACP with Hydrashock rounds. [quote] 5) If you were a pistol adept, what calibre handgun would you carry on a run? Why?[/quote] The damage would be irrelevent as any shot to the eye would kill most individuals. Probably a .40cal. Good accuracy, decent punch, moderate weight... [quote] 6) If you were a pistol adept, would you carry a different calibre handgun for day to day purposes? If so, why?[/quote] No, I'm good with the .40 cal. I might carry a few different clips... Gel, FMJ, Glazer, ... |
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Jun 22 2005, 03:01 PM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Silhouette and target shooting fit in there somewhere as well, although you might be better off with a rather less powerful Desert Eagle (say, in .357 Magnum) for at least the latter. 2: Like Crusher Bob, I'd expect more powerful handgun calibers to have a surge in popularity -- people would feel better with something closer to a .41 Magnum than a 9x19mm, even if a more powerful handgun were not strictly necessary to stop an ork or a troll. My view on "favorite" handguns will be a bit different from those of most of the other gun nuts here, since I cannot see myself ever having a handgun for anything else than target shooting. IRL, if I had to pick a gun for concealed carry, potentially for self-defense, I'd probably go with a compact Glock, for basically the same reasons Crusher Bob mentioned above, model 23 (.40 S&W) being the prime candidate with the 19 (9x19mm) also being considered -- I'm a rather small guy. In the Shadowrun world, a 10mm Auto would certainly be a more likely choice. In an area where trolls would be a real threat, I might consider a 3-4" barreled revolver in .41 or .44 Magnum -- smaller capacity and greater recoil are necessary evils if a potential threat is highly resistant to less powerful firearms. 3: The same, except perhaps slightly more powerful guns -- obviously I'd be bigger and stronger if I were a shadowrunner. ;) 4: Once again, I'll have to go with Crusher Bob on this. Something easily suppressed, for sure. It might as well be a full-sized tactical pistol, like the Mk 23 Crusher Bob mentioned, since you won't be concerned about concealability if you also have a long arm with you. 5: What kind of run? The right tool for the job, etc. I probably wouldn't take a Five-seveN or a similar high-penetration/minimal-wound-cavity handgun unless I knew I might have to penetrate heavy armor and I was unable to get anything heftier on site. If troll gangers on drugs were a potential threat, I'd carry something similar (in principle, at least) to .50 AE DEs. Lots of sneaking, little to no armor or metas = subcompact in 9x19mm or less. And so on. Using similar guns to maintain familiarity, as mentioned by Crusher Bob, is a very good idea as long as those guns are otherwise good for whatever job you're going on. I suspect someone with an extremely high skill in pistols wouldn't have to be too strict about this, though. I think it's silly to think you don't need powerful guns, or a lot of penetration, just because you're a damn good shot. No matter how good I am, I'm going to do everything possible to give me an even greater edge. Of course if I were extremely specialized with a certain model of gun, ie. I'd only ever really used that kind of gun, I might actually be better off with that instead of some gun better suited for the job but that I'm not familiar with. However, I would try to avoid that problem by training with a large variety of handguns. 6: As above, unless I were heavily specialized in using a particular model of pistol (Pistol/Ares Predator III-6/12 ;) ), the pistol I'd carry day to day might vary a lot based on where, what's up, everything -- and the day-to-day gun would probably not be the same I'd pick for a run. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jun 22 2005, 03:05 PM |
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Jun 22 2005, 04:09 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 6,893 |
Guns like the S&W .500 I rule to have a truly massive recoil; they give a -3 penalty on the second shot. Because I only give my runners a few thousand nuyen a run, they may have some trouble paying for someone capable of custom-drilling the barrel to reduce recoil without a noticeable decrease in power.
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Jun 22 2005, 04:13 PM
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#10
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Just as a note, I would NOT give a full size USP a conceal of 5, I'd give it a 4. I'd give the USP compact a 5. I have a CCW and the two guns I carry are my USP 40 and USP 40 compact. No decent holster I've found yet can conceal the full size with any decency except a fanny pack. That thing's just too big to justify a 5 IMHO.
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Jun 22 2005, 04:18 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Since the AKSU (AK-97 Carbine), MP5 (HK 227), and some full sized shotguns (Defiance T-250) all have conceal 4 (don't ask me why), giving the USP a conceal of 4 dosen't make any sense.
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Jun 22 2005, 04:28 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
All but one of the current S&W .500 models come with muzzle brakes. Poking holes in a barrel is invariably going to bleed off propellant gases and thus reduce muzzle velocity, and the reduction in felt recoil will not be that great with a compensator already in place. |
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Jun 22 2005, 05:20 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
Many States do not allow hunting with pistols smaller than .45's, so there is a large market for these "Monster Rounds" in those areas.
And compensating... Yeah, especially that Gold Plated Deagle .50. IMO, anybody with a Gold or Nickel Plated anything is trying to draw attention to their shiny new penis replacement. For everyday carry I would pick a compact .45 - There are many fine makes and models to choose from. I would also probably go with composite frame for weight consideration. For a pistol adept I think Crusher Bob is right on the money. The Five-seveN fits this need perfectly for the reasons he stated, along with the 20 round capacity. On a side note gentlemen, I'm really looking forward to THIS. Bring on the skeet! Also firing .45 Long Colt. Smooth bore means lower range, but that's why I have a rifle. |
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Jun 22 2005, 05:26 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
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Jun 22 2005, 05:49 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 18-January 04 From: bethlehem, pennsylvania. not israel. we're not busy bulldozing any palestinian homesteads here. yet. Member No.: 5,989 |
Apparantly none of you chitlins remember the Thunder 5, designed and marketed in the height of the "carjacker" terrors during the early 90s.
Utterly ridiculous, but amusing... As for your questions: 2) From what I see, our resident gurus don't much rate monster pistols. What calibres do you rate, and are there any particular handguns you favour? "Heavy pistol" except for when you need a higher concealabilty, then perhaps "light pistol" or even "hold out pistol." Of course, in the real world, I carry a 9x18, which rates somewhere between a hot .380ACP and a 9x19, which pretty much means its a "light pistol." This is because in the real world, size doesn't matter. 3) If you were a shadowrunner, what calibre handgun would you typically carry on a "day to day" basis? Why? "Heavy pistol," of course. 4) Assuming you were using a rifle or smg as your main weapon, what calibre handgun would you carry on a run? Why? "Heavy pistol." Although, this has an actual, real answer which, if desperate for realism, you'd want to think about: An SMG shoots the same rounds as a handgun. Ergo, if you're carrying an SMG, you'd match the same round to it. See, less to carry. Smrt, huh? 5) If you were a pistol adept, what calibre handgun would you carry on a run? "Heavy pistol," because a pistol is a defensive weapon, and you might as well tilt odds as far as you can in your favour. 6) If you were a pistol adept, would you carry a different calibre handgun for day to day purposes? If so, why? "Light" or "hold out" because as you wander around the real world, you don't want everyone to see that bulge on your hip. |
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Jun 22 2005, 06:01 PM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I should have, having seen Three Kings again very recently.
For an extended operation, such as when you'll have no logistic support (ie. contacts) in the target area, it's something to keep in mind. The magazines for the pistol and the SMG won't be interchangeable (almost certainly not, anyway), so this only comes into play if you've got time to refill magazines. |
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Jun 22 2005, 07:06 PM
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#17
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It's definitely more of a concern for runners than conventional military. In terms of tactics and operating environments, runners are basically on the extreme end of special operations. While, ideally, they'll get in, get it done, and get out, the potential for things to go wrong is very real, and if things go very wrong, runners are basically going to be in a heavily populated and thoroughly hostile environment. In that regard, it's definitely worth considering keeping ammunition as compatible as possible; you never know when you're not going to be on the offensive anymore. |
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Jun 22 2005, 07:46 PM
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#18
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Just get a Czeska Black Scorpian.
There's your SMG and pistol in one. Use a smaller clip and bring it down to the size of a Fichetti Security 500 if you need concealability. Pull out the big clip when you need to go to town. Same ammo, so if you run down a big clip and decide you need more ROF than conceal for the next while, when you have a few spare minutes empty two of the smaller clips, put the bullets in the big clip, and you're good to go. :) |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:23 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
Yeah, I'm aware of the BFR, and I'm tempted to get one because it's available now, but it's almost TWICE the price of the Taurus. I'm sure it's well made, and it is more versatile with all of the different chamberings, but all I'm really going to use it for is skeet shooting the .410. Also, it doesn't look like you can get the BFR in smooth-bore, so I'd be paying extra for rifling that I would just be ruining with birdshot.
Gfen, that hurts. The Thunder 5 is a joke - it makes the .38 snub look like a viable firearm in comparison. The 44 Ten and the BFR may not have the range of a long-gun, but I'd bet they can reach out a good 30-40 yards before the pattern goes to crap. With the Thunder 5 you're probably looking at a decent pattern out to about 10 feet. |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:31 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I don't get it. If you're afraid of carjackers, why not just keep a 1911 in your glove?
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Jun 22 2005, 08:35 PM
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#21
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
At this point, it's pretty much all been said, but I guess I'll put my slant on the whole thing for shits and giggles, if nothing else.
Hunting is the usual excuse for most of them. But as has already been mentioned, the Desert Eagle was developed with target shooting in mind, particularly silhouette target shooting, in which the objective is to knock over a heavy steel target in the shape of an animal at considerable range. That kind of competition requires a pretty powerful cartridge, and before the Desert Eagle came along, mostly single shots like the Thompson/Center Contender, some revolvers, and only a very few other autos (Wildey, 44 AutoMag, LAR Grizzly), were used for that kind of thing.
Like Ronin said, it depends on the context. I don't carry a gun in public, but if for some reason I do decide to get a concealed carry permit, I'd probably pack either a Kahr K9 or a Glock 19, both of which are 9x19mm, DAO (no manual safeties to worry about) pistols. The Glock is bigger than the Kahr, but it is easier to handle because of that. I'd probably use a 147 grain JHP load in either. My own personal opinion is that more bullet is better and 147 is the heaviest bullet load commonly available for the 9x19mm. If I were doing security or police work, or anything else that required possible defense against other human beings, I'd probably use either a Taurus 608 .357 Mag with 158 grain loads, a Beretta Vertec in .40 S&W with 180 grain loads, an EAA Witness (Tanfoglio Combat-Standard) in 10mm Auto with 200 grain loads, or the trusty 1911 in .45 ACP with 200 grain loads. If I were hiking out in the middle of nowhere and was worried about running into a bear, particularly a grizzly (not uncommon around here), I'd probably take a 5" Taurus Raging Bull in .454 Casull with 360 grain loads. Otherwise I can practice with milder .45 Colt loads.
Usually my characters pack a .45 ACP or 10mm Auto because that's likely to be all you'd need in that kind of setting. If you have to worry about anything bigger than an ork, a handgun is pretty much not what you want to be stuck with. There are handguns out there that could put down a Troll if necessary, but for an average human, that kind of energy output is best dealt with with something fired from the shoulder. Like a 7.62x51mm auto rifle or a shotgun firing slugs.
Same as above.
If using pistols was my kung-fu forte, I'd probably carry a few of them for different purposes. A small pistol I could keep hidden easily, probably a couple of average defensive pistols, and one big one just in case.
Same as above. Because I'm a freakin' pistol adept. |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:38 PM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Or one of these, only pointed sideways from under the doors. :silly: |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:42 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Yes.
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Jun 22 2005, 08:45 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 18-January 04 From: bethlehem, pennsylvania. not israel. we're not busy bulldozing any palestinian homesteads here. yet. Member No.: 5,989 |
The .38spl is as viable now as ever before. Just because magazines and mall ninjas tell you otherwise is no reason to forget about it. If you're really compelled to wank over ballistics, there's always hot loads anyways. Be honest with yourself, do you really invision a time in your life when 5 rounds isn't going to be enough? C'mon, let go off the gangland fantasy and work on it for a minute.. Done? Exactly, you and I both know that if push came to shove, chances are you'd be complete without a single shot fired, and if it came to that, after 2 or 3, your conflict would, one way or another, be complete. What need do you have in a realistic scenario for a 17 round wondergun? That little wheelgun goes. Sure, mechanical failures can happen, but the biggest worry in a situation like that isn't your weapon breaking, but your round not going off. That wheelgun just flips to the next one when you pull the trigger, the rest of you will be tapping and racking while your friend closes that last 21' in 1.5 seconds. As for the usefulness of the THunder 5? Who cares, it was a disaster and has been relegated to a niche in history. Although, remember, it was marketed in response to the paranoia over being carjacked, and you weren't exactly required to have pinpoint accuracy at whites of the eyes ranges. |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:52 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 11-April 05 From: 123 Anytown, USA Member No.: 7,316 |
That ROCKs!!!
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