 .50AE and Other Monsters, What are they designed for? |
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 Jun 23 2005, 07:57 PM
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#51
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
The latest NIJ ballistic protection standard I'm aware of, the 0101.04 dated June 2001, does not mention shotgun slugs at all, while some earlier versions mentioned them under level III as "also protects against [...]". As far as I'm aware, NIJ has never had a ballistic body armor standard which included flexible vests rated against 12G slugs. In fact, I've never run into any flexible body armor rated to protect against shotgun slugs according to any of the more common ballistic body armor standards. Kejo Limited and other firms have probably done some testing of their own and decided that since the slugs are stopped they can include them under "protects against". [Edit]The 12G slug loads mentioned on the Kejo Limited site seem pretty weak to me. Browsing cursorily through a few G&As leads me to believe 1450+fps, up to 1700fps is a more realistic velocity for a 2-3/4" 1oz slug. A nice marketing trick...[/Edit]
I would be surprised if level II-A vests could reliably stop 12G 2-3/4" slugs. Even though the slug spreads its kinetic energy over an area ~4.2 times that of a .357 Magnum JSP, it has nearly 5 times as much KE to go around as the II-A standard .357 (158gr @ 1250fps vs. 437gr @ 1664fps). The backface deformation would certainly be far beyond the acceptable 1.7"/44mm. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jun 23 2005, 08:10 PM |
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Jun 23 2005, 08:23 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
I think the thing to keep in mind in any discussion of body armor is that modern body armor doesn't make getting shot easy and fun - it just makes it non-fatal. Armor or no, your first priority versus any enemy weapon is don't get shot, period.
But the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray, so it's awfully nice to have the armor when you do get hit. |
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Jun 23 2005, 09:02 PM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 18-January 04 From: bethlehem, pennsylvania. not israel. we're not busy bulldozing any palestinian homesteads here. yet. Member No.: 5,989 |
Why is 5 shots more than enough versus a cop with 19? Because I'm not planning on single handedly stopping a crime wave. Most scenarios where you'll have to draw a firearm are finished with nary a shot. If I reach a point where the 9 rounds in my Mak aren't enough, or the 5 in the S&W I plan to replace it with aren't enough, then its time for me to leave. A weapon isn't an excuse to be a hero, its insurance for your life. When the odds are stacked against you, you don't have around and worry about tactical reloads, you beat a hasty retreat. I'm not a hero, invincible, or even going to stick around if the shit hits the fan. I'm going to run. And, if the time comes where flight isn't an option, we'll have to see what the other F feels like. Carrying a single action revolver is a good way to end up dead. You want to minimize the complications, and a single action revolver is about as useful as a guy who carries a pistol and expects to have time to chamber a round before usage. I figured I'd have no problems with an M1911 and Israeli draw for about a week, when I finally hit the lane to try it out, I realized how stupid it was. Not to mention the stupidity of packing a full sized service pistol around. |
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Jun 23 2005, 09:07 PM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Just to say, thanks to everyone who's replied to this thread. I'm starting to get a better idea of what works where :)
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Jun 23 2005, 10:09 PM
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#55
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I wish to put in my order for five, effective immediately. ~J |
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Jun 24 2005, 01:04 AM
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#56
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Hmm. You're right, those figures are a bit slow. Well, either Kejo is bullshitting (I don't think so; I've seen that picture elsewhere and I'm pretty sure it was in a NIJ document), the NIJ document the picture is from is old, or the applicable NIJ specification rated the slug defeats at greater range. I was looking at the test criteria for the 0101.04 standards, and it says the maximum distance from the muzzle to the chronograph start screen is 40 feet. Older standards may have been different. Don't have the time to look it up now. According to some of the 1,450-1,520 fps 1-ounce rifled slug ballistics I've been looking at, they tend to drop below 1,290 fps at a little less than 50 yards.
I'm pretty sure that picture came out of an official NIJ document. I know I've seen it elsewhere. The Kejo site was just the first one I Googled up that had it. I should have known better than to link to something that didn't say official NIJ on it anyway. |
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Jun 24 2005, 04:31 AM
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#57
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
When the odds are stacked against you to the point that 9 rounds aren't enough then you'll need to lay down some suppressive fire if you want to retreat without getting shot in the back.
It is silly to compare cocking a Single Action revolver to chambering a semi-automatic. The time and effort required to cock a revolver are negligable compared to the effort required to chamber a round in a semi-automatic. Besides, this certainly won't happen with a Single Action I see no reason why carrying a full sized serivce pistol is a problem unless concealibility is an issue. If concealability is an issue then you are either carrying illegally or plan on killing and/or robbing someone. The rare exceptions being certain formal occasions and jurisdictions that allow concealed carry but not open carry. |
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Jun 24 2005, 06:45 AM
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#58
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
You mean every jurisdiction, right?
Nobody allows open carry for civilians nowadays. Not in this country, anyway. |
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Jun 24 2005, 06:48 AM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: 27-January 03 From: Kentucky, USA Member No.: 3,958 |
See my .sig line. ;)
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Jun 24 2005, 06:55 AM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
are you sure? i'm pretty sure you're allowed to openly carry any weapon you've got a permit for, as long as it's unloaded. maybe that's just rifles and shotguns, though.
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Jun 24 2005, 07:08 AM
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#61
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
You can open carry without a permit in Virginia, and most of the Southern states are similar. Doesn't mean you won't get harassed by cops or people who aren't used to it, but it is legal.
Outside of the South, it's much more of a crap shoot, and most places won't allow open carry of concealable weapons. Some states, I believe, won't even allow open carry of long arms, but hey, the PRK and PRNJ earned their reputations. That doesn't make open carry smart. Most people who do it do it as a form of protest, and only occasionally (and mostly in small, rural towns) will people do it out of practicality. So, why would I want to conceal a weapon? Possibly because I'm not retarded, and carrying a gun openly invites harrassment. It also makes anyone who may want to hurt me fully aware of at least one major advantage in a fight, which makes that gun suddenly a whole lot less useful. It draws heat, pulls in attention, and is generally a horrible idea. You don't need to be a criminal to want to be safe and left alone. |
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Jun 24 2005, 07:15 AM
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#62
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Your ignorance amazes me, and that statement in and of itself would be offensive to me, personally, if this was anywhere but the internet. Jurisdictions that allow concealed but not open carry are far, far, far, from "rare," and making a blanket statement like that about anyone that has a compact or sub-compact instead of a full, expressly so that we can carry legally, is remarkably insulting. |
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Jun 24 2005, 07:23 AM
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#63
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
haha, jesus, i must have skipped right over that line. my eyes tend to automatically avert themselves when something stupid presents itself.
hyzmarca, compact pistols are not designed for sneaking into places so you can kill people. that's not even their most common use. their most common use, and the one they're designed for, is carrying in polite society for purposes of self-defense. and before you say "self-defense is killing people", let me point out that you're wrong. self-defense includes the threat the firearm presents, which comes into play more often than its actual ability to kill people. |
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Jun 24 2005, 07:33 AM
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#64
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
One thing a lot of people don't understand about a concealed carry permit -- it's for concealed carry. Only. That means in order for me to be legal while toting my 9mm around, no one can see it. No one's supposed to know I've got it, or I'm breaking the law. I'm not supposed to flash my CCW badge to try and pick up chicks. I'm not supposed to make a big show of opening my jacket to let the waiter know I'm packing. I'm not supposed to let anyone know I've got it on me -- to do so would be to openly carry, which is a whole different set of laws/regulations/rules/legal issues.
Open carry on accident? That can very easily be called "disturbing the peace." Reach for your wallet and some schmuck at Best Buy thinks you're going for the gun he sees (and you're supposed to have hidden properly)? You're about to get nerd-tackled, then go to jail. In many situations, someone spotting your supposedly concealed handgun can, in and of itself and with no other provocation, be called "brandishing a deadly weapon," and lead to serious legal repurcussions. Your ignorant statement that no one but would-be assassins wants to hide a handgun is so amazingly false it took me a few minutes to compose myself enough to post. You say people only hide weapons when they have illegal intent -- the opposite is true. If I don't hide mine, I'm breaking the law. And it's not like I'm the only dude with a CCW. Gangbangers and robbers and shit, they don't care if someone sees their gun or not. Or, rather, they probably want people to see their guns. Flashing their chrome is probably a bigger deal to them than using it. They want people to know they're armed (in their own perverse little corner of the world), and I'm sure they spend more time accessorizing so their bling bling chains and handgun go together than they do at any sort of range, learning how to shoot right. But robbers and gangbangers are stupid. So the rest of us try not to be like them. |
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Jun 24 2005, 07:40 AM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I've always got time to read body armor documents. ;) In the most recent standard, for testing levels I through III-A, the distance from the muzzle to the first chronograph is minimum 2 meters, the distance from that to the second chronograph is 1.5 meters (+/- 6mm), and the distance from the muzzle to the armor panel is 5 meters. In the 0101.03 standard (April 1987), there was a single chronograph with start and stop trigger screens. For levels I through III-A, the start screen was a minimum of 2 meters from the muzzle, the stop screen 0.5 to 1.5 meters behind the start screen -- and the armor panel again 5 meters from the muzzle. This standard does not include tests for shotgun slugs, nor does it mention them other than "[Level III body armor] also provides protection against threats such as 223 Remington (5.56 mm FMJ), 30 Carbine FMJ, and 12 gauge rifled slug, as well as the threats mentioned in sections 2.1 through 2.4." In both 0101.03 and 0101.04 Rev A, the armor panel is placed 15 meters from the muzzle for testing level III and IV. Back in '87, the chronograph start screen could have been placed anywhere from 2 meters to about 13-14 meters in this test -- as of June '01 the first chronograph is placed between 12 and about 13 meters. Standard 0101.02 (the first to include level III-A, from March 1985) is a rarity by now, I couldn't find a copy with Google. For all I know, it could have included shotgun slugs. In any case, NIJ could well have published other test material including slugs outside of the body armor standards and Selection and Application Guides. I've just never run into any, so I was glad to see even the BoT-version. Google doesn't find anything but the same standards and S&AGs mentioning "also protects against 12G slugs" under level III. Tables or charts including 12G slugs as being protected against by level III-A don't seem to exist anywhere but on the websites of firms making or selling body armor, which seems somewhat suspect to me -- although that particular chart is always tagged "NIJ [whatever]", so it may well originate from an NIJ document. One site even includes 1oz sabot slugs @ 1500fps -- with more than twice the KE spread over ~1.36 times the area of the .44 Magnum SWC test round, it sounds really odd to me that it would pass the backface deformation criterion. |
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Jun 24 2005, 02:36 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Critias:
Your right that a concealed carry permit does mean concealed, but I think you're overestimating the danger of someone accidentally seeing your weapon. According to packing.org, in Florida it is prohibited to "wantonly and recklessly display" a concealed firearm. It would take a hanging judge (not that you can't end up with one) to lock you up for your shirt blowing open. |
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Jun 24 2005, 02:51 PM
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#67
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
In no way was I saying that subcompacts are only intended for criminal use. I was saying that the only reason to be so concerned about concealibility that one completely rejects the idea of carrying a full sized pistol out of hand is. I also made exceptions for "polite society" and jurisdictions that only allow concealed carry in my statement. As for thetreat that firearms present, they present more of a threat if potential attackers actually know that the firearms exist. If someone is so intent to attacking you that he will ignore an openly carried weapon drawing a concealed weapon isn't going to make him just run away. Concealed carry is more trap than threat. This is the common law justification restricting concealed carry in states that have a constitutional guarentees protecting the right to carry. I live in a state that has legal open carry and hands out concealed permits to anyone who pays $20 and who hasn't been convicted of a felony or insitutionalized recently. The people I know who do have CCWs usually carry full sized pistols and rarely make extradorinary efforts to conceal them. If a police officer sees the butt of weapon sticking out of your jacket it isn't a big deal just calmly show him the CCW permit and have a polite conversation. If a police officer sees the weapon and it is being carried completely in the open then it isn't a deal at all. The guy at the 7-11? He certainly has less to fear from a gun that is carried openly than one that is concealed. The person with a concealed weapon presents a greater threat of robbery. But it has more to do with demeanor than it has to do with a weapon. If you act like it is perfectly right for you to be carrying and everyone will be more trusting and at ease. Open carry simply helps convey this attitude. It is a very broad statement to the convience store clerk. "I don't care who sees my weapon because I am not going to do anything illegal with it." Critias, I don't know where you live but the laws there are made by idiots. Gangbangers want to show off their illegal weapons around other gangbangers. They don't want to show off their illegal weapons around people who will call the police. When robbers go into a store they usually have their weapons concealed. They don't draw the weapons untill they are in front of the register because they dont want to alert the clerk who may sound an alarm or draw a weapon of his or her own.. |
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Jun 24 2005, 03:37 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
hyzmarca:
What state do you live in, gunslinger? I want to move there :D (Bet it's Texas!) |
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Jun 24 2005, 05:21 PM
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#69
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Georgia. I was slightly incorrect. In Georgia the carry permit covers both concealed and open carry. One cannot carry a gun on one's person without a permit. However one can carry openly in an automobile. That means having the weapon displayed on the dash or passanger seat. Still, is very easy to get a permit. |
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Jun 24 2005, 08:39 PM
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#70
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
typical dumpshock, no gun question thread is complete without some pages on gun laws :silly:
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Jun 28 2005, 06:14 AM
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#71
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Target Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 16-August 04 From: Ohio Member No.: 6,564 |
1: This has already been answered by everyone else. I was gonna say "Punching great big holes in things". 2: I like the .45 ACP. It might not have the penetration of a 9mm, but thats OK by me. A wise man once said, "A 9mm hollowpoint MIGHT expand, but a .45 full metal jacket aint gettin any smaller". I like 1911's and Sig's. If you absolutely MUST have something that has a DA trigger pull, might as well get something thats double/single, like the Sig. I dont need a DA, so I'll stick with the 1911 (and have. Sold my Sig to fund another 1911). The .40 is a compromise between the power of the .45 and the capacity of a 9mm. I cant stand them. Compromise is a dirty word. Besides, why settle for 13-15 rounds of .40, when you can get one of the new Springfields, or a Para, and have 14-15 rounds of .45? Heck, even Glonk makes a .45 with a decent capacity (14, I think). Not that I would pay money for one. And if given one, I'd sell it to fund another Springfield. But thats just because I dont like Glonks. Couldnt tell you about 10mm, as I've never decided that I wanted to pay that much for a box of ammo. Which means I'm not going to buy a pistol that eats ammo thats that expensive. I'm not real big on revolvers, so I cant really say much about the .38, .357, .44, or .45 Colt. Or the other, even bigger, calibers. I will say that I've known a few people who have some of the larger caliber revolvers, and mostly they arent too fond of them. One of them is a gun dealer near where I live, who had to get surgery done on his arm because of the .500 Snakes & Weasels. 3: A double-stack .45 with 13 or more rounds capacity. Power, mostly. The power to knock big holes in things. Add to that what someone else pointed out, its easily suppressed. And more thing that isnt a factor in deciding which weapon to use, but IS an added bonus: Intimidation. Get a standard, 5" barrel .45. Put a snap cap in it (DO NOT, under any circumstances, use a live round. Wouldnt want some fool that doesnt know what they're doing getting themselves killed because they read my words and thought they knew how to be safe with a firearm, when in fact they know next to nothing about them). Now take a gander down the barrel. See that? Thats the tip of the snap cap. Now take a look at the face of a hollowpoint bullet, and imagine how THAT would look, if the weapon was in the hands of someone who was none to happy with you and just might decide to exert a couple pounds of pressure on the trigger. Even in dim light, from arms length away, you can see the bolt face of a .45 with an empty chamber. Like I said, its not a factor in deciding what to use, but it is an added bonus. 4: See above. 5: Same. 6: NO! That'd be like training in Shodo Khan every day of your life, then stepping into the ring and trying to fight using Tae Kwon Do (unless you trained in Tae Kwon Do every day, also, in which case I have to wonder if you've got anything else in your life besides martial arts training). Train the way you fight. |
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Jun 28 2005, 09:02 AM
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#72
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Because of that big, fat, clunky steel grip frame? It makes for an awful lot to get your hands around and even more to carry around. Polymer-framed high-cap .45s generally handle that better than the high-cap 1911 does.
Considering that components are readily available and that the 10mm can outperform almost any practical automatic pistol load by a pretty fair margin, handloading is one of those things that 10mm owners tend to get into to save a few bucks. You probably don't want to get into 10mm if you're not very interested in handloading. But if you think about it in terms of Shadowrun, the 10mm would very likely make a huge comback, considering the potential threats. So factory loads really wouldn't be much of an issue in that kind of setting, IMO.
Pffft. I would say he's either A) a complete muppet, or B) had a previous injury that his 500 somehow exacerbated, in which case he should have known better. The 500 does give a substantial thumping, but it's not going to rip your arms off unless you're doing something very wrong.
What is "violating rules one and two"? Do you really have to be able to see the snap cap/bullet to understand that a gun being pointed in your face is all wrong? It doesn't matter how big the hole is or whether you can see the bullet or not. It's bad.
I'm beginning to think that there's something seriously wrong with your 1911 and that you've been spending way too much time looking down the wrong end of it, Hague. |
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Jun 28 2005, 09:34 AM
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#73
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
This is probably the worst advice/example/directions I've ever, ever, seen anyone post. |
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Jun 28 2005, 10:12 AM
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#74
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
That's a pretty bold statement, but considering the source I can pretty much assume there's good reason for making it. Can you expound a little? Also, the business of grains. That's grains of gunpowder in the cartridge, right? How much variance in a round's performance is down to grain load? And how widely does/can the grain load for a round vary? While I think about it, what are "hot loads"? Do they have specific advantages or disadvantages? |
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Jun 28 2005, 11:17 AM
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#75
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
A grain is a measure of weight used when talking about bullets and powder. There are 7000 grains in a pound. So 'grains of powder' refers to a weight not a number of individual 'bits' of poweder.
So when talking about, for example, the 230 grain bullet commonly loaded for .45 ACP that bullet weights 230/7000 ~ .0329 pounds, .5257 ounces (16 ounces in a pound, right?) or around 14.6 grams. 'Hot Loads' are cartridges loaded with more propellant, or faster burning propellant, or both. They will move the bullet faster, in exchange for higher recoil, more pronounced muzzle flash, and reduced reliability (in the worst case, making really bad things happen like your weapon blowing up, or small, important bits breaking when you need them to work). There is not standard level of 'hotness', so the problems you may or may not encouter with a hot load will depend on the load and the weapon you are using. (As an aside '+P' rounds you will sometimes hear people refer to are also hot loads, but are usually factory loaded, not hand loaded). In general, all modern, high quality, and well cared for weapons will be able to handle some amount of hot loading. Some manufacturerss build their weapons greatly over spec, both for added safety and to let you fire 'hotter' loads out of them. Note that firing such ammunition may void the weapon's warranty, letting the manufacturer off the hook if you stupidly blow yourself up. |
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