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blakkie

Jul 5 2005, 08:19 PM

Post #176

Dragon

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Thanks for taking the time to post. :love:

QUOTE

A big change that I'm not sure has been discussed here was to initiative. You can no longer get multiple actions by rolling well on init, everyone gets a single base turn each round. If you want multiple actions you get them via wired reflexes or similar, and they are constant for all time.

So do you reroll initiative for each round?

P.S. As a mage did you happen to notice your options for types of spirits? If you did could you please pop over here and fire off a quick clarification? Thanks in advance.

mmu1

Jul 5 2005, 08:30 PM

Post #177

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QUOTE (Vors @ Jul 5 2005, 03:10 PM)

If you want a really cool setting where people use cyber implants and can be hacked, I suggest reading a novel titled "Woken Furies". Third in a series by Richard Morgan, it can stand on its own and got me really craving a good game of Shadowrun.

Gaaah! It's not coming out in the US until the September... *stomps off mumbling angrily to see about shipping from Canada or the UK*

Bull

Jul 5 2005, 08:53 PM

Post #178

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QUOTE (Hell Hound)

Where do toxic and insect spirits fit into these new spirit types? Shamans turn toxic because of their close connection with nature, can a hermetic now summon toxic spirits without going mad in the same manner a shaman does? Can a hermetic be contacted by insect spirits and summon them without taking the insect as a totem (since hermetics don't have totems)? Can a 'shaman' who summons elemental type spirits with no connection to nature turn toxic and still summon those same elementals? Are nature spirits (or whatever their equivalent in SR4 is) still the only type of spirit that becomes 'toxic'? I really want more details on what exactly these new spirit types are and how the rules for them work.

Remember that things like Toxic and insect spirits were never in the core rulebooks. Street Magic will very likely add a bunch to the basic magic rules for traditions.

Bull

Shadow View Member Profile	Jul 5 2005, 08:52 PM Post #179
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006	I hope theres more to the magic one thing. Cause if not I foresee everyone being hax0rs and having a magic of 1. (Despite what Blackie believes you cannot purchase a magic rating of 1 in SR3, so it is different). Heck if you can cast any spell at any power just take magic of 1, fireball and don't use it unless you're really in trouble. I keep hoping for there to be information released that makes me want to buy FanPros Shadowrun. But the more they reveal the less I like.

Synner

Jul 5 2005, 09:11 PM

Post #180

Runner

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QUOTE (Shadow @ Jul 5 2005, 08:52 PM)

I hope theres more to the magic one thing. Cause if not I foresee everyone being hax0rs and having a magic of 1. (Despite what Blackie believes you cannot purchase a magic rating of 1 in SR3, so it is different).

Heck if you can cast any spell at any power just take magic of 1, fireball and don't use it unless you're really in trouble.

QUOTE (Vors)

First, regarding the force of a spell, it could be cast at any force up to twice your magic, so if 6 is the human maximum that would cap at 12. I was not told anything about caps for magic. The force level of an offensive spell dictated the boxes of damage it would do, plus whatever net successes were achieved (so my force 10 lightning bolt with 2 net successes hit the street sam for 12 boxes before soaking).

the_dunner

Jul 5 2005, 09:15 PM

Post #181

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QUOTE (blakkie)

So do you reroll initiative for each round?

P.S. As a mage did you happen to notice your options for types of spirits? .

Yes, initiative is re-rolled each combat round.

In the 5 demo tables I ran, no one attempted any conjuring. I can't honestly say what happened at tables that any of the other GMs ran.

QUOTE

Heck if you can cast any spell at any power just take magic of 1, fireball and don't use it unless you're really in trouble.

That is, of course, an option. But the drain would be rather unpleasant.

Shadow

Jul 5 2005, 09:16 PM

Post #182

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

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QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE (Shadow @ Jul 5 2005, 08:52 PM)

I hope theres more to the magic one thing. Cause if not I foresee everyone being hax0rs and having a magic of 1. (Despite what Blackie believes you cannot purchase a magic rating of 1 in SR3, so it is different).

Heck if you can cast any spell at any power just take magic of 1, fireball and don't use it unless you're really in trouble.

QUOTE (Vors)

First, regarding the force of a spell, it could be cast at any force up to twice your magic, so if 6 is the human maximum that would cap at 12. I was not told anything about caps for magic. The force level of an offensive spell dictated the boxes of damage it would do, plus whatever net successes were achieved (so my force 10 lightning bolt with 2 net successes hit the street sam for 12 boxes before soaking).

Thank you synner that makes it a little better. Hopefully a magic rating of 3 will be prohibitively expensive to prevent everyone from having it.

blakkie

Jul 5 2005, 09:26 PM

Post #183

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QUOTE (Shadow)

I hope theres more to the magic one thing. Cause if not I foresee everyone being hax0rs and having a magic of 1. (Despite what Blackie believes you cannot purchase a magic rating of 1 in SR3, so it is different).

Reread what he said. He said you can get Magic 1 by starting at 3 and working down from there as you add 'ware.

That is the same way as you get to 1 Magic in SR3, only you start at 6 so you need to buy more 'ware (nominally, depending on the new Essense costs) to get there. :P

Vors

Jul 5 2005, 09:27 PM

Post #184

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QUOTE (blakkie)

Thanks for taking the time to post. :love:

QUOTE

A big change that I'm not sure has been discussed here was to initiative. You can no longer get multiple actions by rolling well on init, everyone gets a single base turn each round. If you want multiple actions you get them via wired reflexes or similar, and they are constant for all time.

So do you reroll initiative for each round?

P.S. As a mage did you happen to notice your options for types of spirits? If you did could you please pop over here and fire off a quick clarification? Thanks in advance.

You do reroll each round.

I didn't see anything about the spirits, sorry.

Vors

Jul 5 2005, 09:29 PM

Post #185

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QUOTE (mmu1)

QUOTE (Vors @ Jul 5 2005, 03:10 PM)

If you want a really cool setting where people use cyber implants and can be hacked, I suggest reading a novel titled "Woken Furies". Third in a series by Richard Morgan, it can stand on its own and got me really craving a good game of Shadowrun.

Gaaah! It's not coming out in the US until the September... *stomps off mumbling angrily to see about shipping from Canada or the UK*

Yeah I had to import it from the U.K. myself.

His first novel, "Altered Carbon" is an excellent place to start though, I think it's still my favorite of his works.

Req

Jul 5 2005, 11:40 PM

Post #186

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QUOTE (Vors)

His first novel, "Altered Carbon" is an excellent place to start though, I think it's still my favorite of his works.

Absolutely. Morgan goes on the Short List of Awesomeness. Can't wait for Furies.

Thanos007

Jul 6 2005, 12:42 AM

Post #187

Moving Target

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QUOTE

Drain was calculated by whatever formula the spell specified, usually F/2 plus or minus some value. And of course, any spell whose force is above your magic rating does physical damage on drain.

Are you sure this is right as that would meen the TN is NOT 5?

Thanos

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 6 2005, 12:52 AM Post #188
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	That may be a Hit threshold rather than a TN change. ~J

bclements

Jul 6 2005, 02:02 AM

Post #189

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QUOTE (Req)

QUOTE (Vors @ Jul 5 2005, 02:29 PM)

His first novel, "Altered Carbon" is an excellent place to start though, I think it's still my favorite of his works.

Absolutely. Morgan goes on the Short List of Awesomeness. Can't wait for Furies.

+ f'ing +. Great book (the second one wasn't, though.) Kovacs is a great character, and Morgan has a neat universe made up.

hobgoblin

Jul 6 2005, 06:59 AM

Post #190

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jul 6 2005, 02:52 AM)

That may be a Hit threshold rather than a TN change.

~J

like so maybe:

drain = the numbers of boxes of damage your taking before soaking them.
then you roll willpower vs 5 and reduce the damage by one box pr hit/success.

basicly the same damage resolution as with normal combat. and i must say i kinda like it ;)

hmm, that would put a force 12 spell into the 6 damage area and physical to boot. nasty if you dont roll good on the test then. two of these should either severly wound you or drop you if that happens...

Ellery

Jul 6 2005, 08:28 AM

Post #191

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QUOTE (blakkie)

I didn't really see much "debate" from you about that. So why bother respond. [Instead, I'll go off on a misleading tangent by supposing things that are false.]

So you don't care, actually, to communicate with people. I'm not sure what you're doing here; ego-stroking, or passing time, or what. I'm here to discuss Shadowrun 4, including context (which includes SR2/SR3 changes), hypothetical situations (including speculation on how rules work and perceived consequences of announced rules), and so on; and I recogize that discussion involves an exchange of ideas about the matter being discussed, and that these ideas must meet minimal standards of relevancy, sufficiency, and truthfulness in order to be worthwhile for the other person to consider.

If your policy upon finding a debate insufficiently on-topic for your personal standards is to bring it much more off-topic without even mentioning that you question the topicality (and then trying to justify your statements afterwards by appealing to the lack of topicality when at the time it wasn't important enough to mention), then there's no point in discussing some things with you. Since I can't tell when you're adopting this policy, and there are plenty of people on DS who try harder to communicate (or do better at not letting emotional responses interfere with their posting, or whatever the case is here), I'll stop trying to discuss anything with you. If this was your goal all along, it could be much more efficiently achieved by simply asking, "Could you please not read and respond to my posts? I'm not going to make it worth your while, so there's no point wasting your time. Thanks."

Henceforth, if anyone wants me to address any of blakkie's comments, please ask them again in your own post. I have better things to do than waste my time reading what he writes, so I very likely won't even notice if something is worth addressing, and even if I do, I probably won't be motivated to address it.

QUOTE (Vors)

A big change that I'm not sure has been discussed here was to initiative. You can no longer get multiple actions by rolling well on init, everyone gets a single base turn each round. If you want multiple actions you get them via wired reflexes or similar, and they are constant for all time.

This seems like quite a hit on the non-magical, non-cybered character. It used to be that with high quickness and intelligence, you could go twice fairly often. (E.g., with 7 in each you'd go twice half the time.) Magicians without quickened increase reflexes spells often got two actions as well. Also, unless there are fewer levels of reflex enhancement, it's going to accentuate the power of wired reflexes, since it used to add only about one action for every two levels before.

I suppose this does streamline the initiative process, although not very much if everyone still has to roll to determine the order in which they go. It seems like a pretty small savings for a rather major impact. It certainly simplifies things, as there's no arithmetic required to figure out if you're likely to get an extra action after upgrading your 'ware. If you dislike arithmetic sufficiently, this could be a bonus, even though you only have to do it rarely and during downtime (or character creation).

I wonder what this does to wounds penalties leaving people with no actions at all? I suppose that's gone as well?

Cheops View Member Profile	Jul 6 2005, 09:36 AM Post #192
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392	"New" Initiative sounds a fair bit like Celerity...unless of course wired actions don't go at the end of the round

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Jul 6 2005, 11:13 AM Post #193
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	yea, a bit more info on this change in initiative would be nice ;)

Taki

Jul 6 2005, 12:25 PM

Post #194

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QUOTE (Cheops)

"New" Initiative sounds a fair bit like Celerity...unless of course wired actions don't go at the end of the round

I does agree with that ...
I find it a shame wired reflex still won't be considered as "reflexes" by the rules ...

Without any training(skill), people will still be able to act 3 times faster without any penalities ?

nezumi

Jul 6 2005, 01:51 PM

Post #195

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QUOTE (blakkie)

QUOTE (Shadow @ Jul 5 2005, 02:52 PM)

I hope theres more to the magic one thing. Cause if not I foresee everyone being hax0rs and having a magic of 1. (Despite what Blackie believes you cannot purchase a magic rating of 1 in SR3, so it is different).

Reread what he said. He said you can get Magic 1 by starting at 3 and working down from there as you add 'ware.

Wait, just for clarification... I did see that mentioned earlier that everyone starts with magic 3. But are we actually saying EVERY runner is magical? Every joe shmoe? Every office receptionist? Every little two year old playing ball with her dad? Heck, what about fido? Is he magical? That would quite put me off, if fireballs were more common than handguns.

Fortune View Member Profile	Jul 6 2005, 02:22 PM Post #196
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	I believe you still have to pay a 'build point' cost to be awakened. Apparently, if this cost is paid, according to the poster (?) the character then starts with a Magic Attribute of 3. I assume that it can be raised from there (to a max of 6), and/or lowered via implants.

Grinder View Member Profile	Jul 6 2005, 02:58 PM Post #197
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	Even in a strongly magical setting like Earthdawn only a small percentage of the people are magically awake/active. I doubt that it will be different in Shadowrun. You have to pay to be awakened and get a magic rating which you can raise or lower, but most people in the world won't have such a magic rating/ attribute as they aren't awakened.

Eldritch

Jul 6 2005, 03:44 PM

Post #198

Moving Target

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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jul 6 2005, 06:59 AM)

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jul 6 2005, 02:52 AM)

That may be a Hit threshold rather than a TN change.

~J

like so maybe:

drain = the numbers of boxes of damage your taking before soaking them.
then you roll willpower vs 5 and reduce the damage by one box pr hit/success.

basicly the same damage resolution as with normal combat. and i must say i kinda like it ;)

hmm, that would put a force 12 spell into the 6 damage area and physical to boot. nasty if you dont roll good on the test then. two of these should either severly wound you or drop you if that happens...

I dunno - so the mage with a magic attribute of 65 could fling that force 12 spell - and Worse case scenario only suffer 6 boxes mental stun. Assuming he's got a bod of 2, he's still got 4 boxes left to operate and has likely thrown a Major - not easy to resist - spell.

I hope theres more to it than that....

QUOTE ( ellery)

Henceforth, if anyone wants me to address any of blakkie's comments, please ask them again in your own post. I have better things to do than waste my time reading what he writes, so I very likely won't even notice if something is worth addressing, and even if I do, I probably won't be motivated to address it.

*applause*

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 6 2005, 03:44 PM Post #199
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Er? My problem with it is that if you're just rolling Willpower to soak, anything above Force 3 will be very likely to injure the casting mage. Also note that in your above example (assuming that you didn't really mean to write magic attribute of 65 :eek: ) the mage would be taking Physical damage. ~J

Eldritch View Member Profile	Jul 6 2005, 03:49 PM Post #200
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	Even so, 6 boxes of physical damage isn't bad for a force 12 spell. You''re still tossing a mighty big manaball and walking away from it.

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