More news of Origins, yeah..I saw the good stuff Options

[Synner]

SoA should already be working its way through the distribution system at this point. System Failure was in final editing last I heard, and from recent news SR4 should be ready by GenCon.

Disclaimer: this is definitely unconfirmed information.

[Ellery]

I already explained, in my post dated Jul 27 2005, 10:20 PM, that force 6 spells are special when they are resisted because you need to roll against TN6. And I also explained that SR3's "20% increase in target number" corresponds to a 100% increase in difficulty to resist, because of the TN6 thing.

And I've already explained why it's next to impossible to get a twofold difference in one point of force using SR4 mechanics with 6 vs. 5.

I'm happy to wait for the release date and explain in detail using the real rules instead of any halfway sensible application of SR4 mechanics. But I do want to be clear that I'm not talking about a 20% impact of force 6 over force 5 in SR3--it's more like a factor of two.

Factors of 20% aren't too hard to achieve in SR4. Factors of two are, given such a small difference. All the other things about magic and essence interactions, low attributes, and so on can only easily generate a 20% difference or so.

I don't think that variable length condition monitors will make SR4's system feel like it has hit points on its own. The accrual of penalties is rather weird, though. Losing damage levels has a bigger impact, I think: if the 1-3-6-10-15-21 progression was continued, then there wouldn't be much difference in penalty between someone with a 9-box vs. 15-box condition monitor, nor would either be that immune to dying to a single accurate shot. The 15-box guy could keep slogging on for longer with a bunch of minor wounds, but would still be vulnerable to a sniper (or even a ganger with a light pistol, some skill, and using maximum combat pool and karma pool...er, well, maybe not, now that there's no combat pool).

However, without damage levels, one picks up much more of a feeling of hit points--there's presumably a gradual accrual of damage, and the people with longer condition monitors can accrue a fair bit more. Furthermore, there will be little danger of immediately lethal damage (one-shot kills) unless almost all damage is immediately lethal to everyone, in which case having a condition monitor at all is kind of silly.

Now, Synner is probably going to say that I'm wrong, and that I can't know this, and I don't have all the information. But again, the difference between a linear progression and a quadratic one is pretty dramatic (just like the exponential vs. linear progression including a large TN5/6 jump is dramatic).

[Synner]

Nope, this time I'm pretty sure your analysis is pretty much on target given known facts. Sometimes 1+1+x is 3 - although again this is speculation and not certainty.

I also agree that the end of damage levels might feed the feeling of a hit points system (though I believe, in practice, players will quickly get over that impression given other changes introduced in the system) and with your deduction that the danger of one-shot kills is apparently lessened for these high Body types - all I can say on that regard is that it is something that was detected in playtesting.

I'd like to reiterate that you might even be right with the basis of your prior conclusion, but given its speculative nature and the current known information, it shouldn't have been used to build further conclusions which are contingent on a larger framework.

[Ellery]

If we didn't speculate upon things and build upon incomplete information, there wouldn't be much point to a SR4 forum--all information we are presented with is taken out of the full context. Plus, as explained, I wasn't grasping at straws--there are good mathematical reasons why one can't make SR4 do what SR3 did (which arguably was an unintentional artifact peculiar to the SR3 mechanics). So it seemed to me to be a fine base upon which to build.

[fistandantilus4....]

we need a new smiley - fencing smiley!

[Taki]

[fistandantilus4....]

Earthdawn being an exception to that. But ED always was a great system to play. A little ungainly at first, but definitely good stuff.

[Ellery]

Taki, all I said was that I would be happy to demonstrate the validity of my argument when SR4 is out--or when someone comes up with any other set of hypothetical magic rules that are consistent with SR4 mechanics. I never said that the large benefit of having force 6 spells (over force 5 ones) was an advantage--it's just a difference.

Correctly assessing the differences between SR3 and SR4, and the consequences that those differences have, can hardly be considered as bad behavior except in a groupthink scenario where the two Are The Same, or one is presumed to be far superior to the other and evidence that might indicate the contrary is most unwelcome.

There are both good features of the SR3 system that cannot be easily reproduced, and bad features of SR3 that cannot be easily reproduced. There are probably some neutral features as well. The SR4 mechanic is quite different from the SR3 mechanic, and binomials and linear trends do not fit quadratic trends and exponential distributions well except in an unhelpfully limited range.

[Synner]

[Ellery]

I was responding to Taki's comments--I didn't view your posts as saying that my behavior was bad (in a malicious sense as Taki seemed to me to be implying), just potentially misleading or unhelpful.

Anyway, I'm not terribly eager to go through the "I can estimate this pretty well!" vs. "No you can't!" discussion again. I think we've both made our respective positions clear.

[fistandantilus4....]

5 karma for the both of ya'

It's nice to see a discussion and critical analysis that doesn't degenerate to name calling

[Taki]

Ellery, I didn't say you are malicious, I said : "being happy to wait for SR4 in purpose to demolished it would be a bad behavior. "
You know better than me if it is precisely what you are doing.

You are saying there is difference between sr3 / sr4, it is true indeed. Thanksfully things will be VERY different, in the same time most of us hope it will keep the shadowrun feeling.

[Ellery]

[Taki]

hum ... me no understand all games with word. By the way

I meaned no disrespect man ...
I wasnt implying it is, I just said it could be which is a lot different in probability ;)

[The White Dwarf]

While that example is correct, and is indeed a case-in-point of one of the SR3 system flaws (rather big one imo, but limitation of relying on linear scale combined with dice containing a finite number of sides), theres more to the story.

Because spells contained a tn to be rolled against, before the resistance test, they are in a sense opposed rolls (not opposed tests per sr lingo, just that 2 parties roll against tns and the net does something).

Having, for example, a Willpower 5 vs Willpower 6 did the exact same thing, for the same reason, only magnified. When you resist a spell using willpower, vs a force 5 of force 6 spell, there is no pool and so the most dice you can get is like 6 or 8, maybe 10 or 12 for some crazy extreme case. That difference only changes 1-2 successes on average into passes or fails.

Consider the effect of that Willpower 5 or Willpower 6 on the caster tho, his tn for his entier casting pool changes. That can quite easily get up near 20 dice without anything obscene, potentially more if someone activly tries to get a lot of dice. Now youre taking 3-4-5 changes in success values.

What Im trying to point out is that because the TN values in SR3 were variable, the EXACT SAME THING, in this case the 5 to 6 thingy and its 20% increase vs 50% success chance, in the EXACT SAME MECHANIC, in this case a spellcasting test, affects the involved people DIFFERENTLY. Its not like its some system glitch that everyone deals with, it created inherant imbalances. That is, IMO, the problem; not the glitch per se. Every game system as quirks, but they dont all have glitchs.

SR4 seems to address some of these from what posts indicate. *Seems* to. Because the posts also point to the exact same situation occuring in a new way in the new system.

I dont know if Ill like or hate the new system on its own. But if this same 'feature' is held over it wont be an improvement over the old one, mechanically thats the sort of thing that just has to go to bring it to any sort of improved level.

[Taki]

I am with you.

Dwarf powa !

Taki
Black dwarf samurai adept

[Serbitar]

Some 2 cents:

Of course Ellery is right.

In SR3 by going from Force 5 to force 6 you double your effectivnes. In SR4 you don't because they changed the system from exponential to linear.
So the step from force 5 to 6 in SR3 will always be of much greater impact than in SR4.

There is nothing to discuss about it. Its plain maths. To say that in SR4 the step from Force 5 to force 6 is euqally important as in SR4 would mean denying the step from exponential to linear system.

But after all you DONT WANT the step from 5 to 6 be much more effective then from 4 to 5. Thats why they changed it in SR4 and thats why SR4 is superior to SR3.

[Synner]

I repeat mathematically Ellery's conclusion is correct - assuming the system works as you seem to believe - however the true "effectiveness" of a Force 5-6 spells in the context of the game can only be evaluated in relation of its impact on a Resistance Test of which an Att roll is integral (in the new system) - my point is that you can not at this point make a valid judgement about this element of the system without taking into account elements which are unknown (and are erroneously being assumed to be identical to SR3 - the amplitude and range of attributes in SR4 to name just one).

[Ellery]

And my point is that I don't need to know the details because one cannot make the differential effectiveness between force 5 and force 6 great enough with the SR4 mechanics to match the difference in effectiveness that you found in SR3. (Unless, of course, one resorts to silly ad hoc rules such as, "If the spell is force 6 or above, all effects are doubled" or "if you have any cyberware at all, you can only cast spells at half the force that you normally could".)

[Serbitar]

[Ellery]

It's nice to know that someone understands what I was saying!

[SL James]

Some of us were just too lazy to get involved when the posts got longer than my ... er... their screen.

[Synner]

[Ellery]

a) The chance of it being wrong is so small as to not be worth setting off with qualifiers given that all statements about SR4--including statements directly from the FAQ--are speculative.
b) Building upon prior reasoning is the whole point of deduction. It's most of the point of thinking. There does not exist a sensible relationship between magic and essence, given the very limited possible choices consistent with SR4 rules, that could make taking a small amount of cyberware horribly bad for mages while not converting most existing mages with a little cyber into burnouts. That part is speculative--maybe piles of existing mages will be converted into burnouts--but I did not state strongly how big of an effect the difference in forces would make, nor did I rule out that there could be other factors that would have an opposite effect.
c) Last I checked, I didn't have a "FanPro Developer" tag on my name. I'd hope that people could distinguish what I say from what a developer says, and judge its likelihood of being a result of direct knowledge of the rules accordingly.

Also, this "you can't speculate!" stuff is getting old. If you understood what I was saying, you'd address the mathematical points I've made. But you continue to say I can't speculate, and continue to fail to address why I'm not mathematically justified in my conclusions. My sense is that you don't understand that you don't understand what I'm saying--not in the kind of quantitative detail necessary to draw conclusions. If you're so confident that I could be wrong in my speculations, why don't you come up with a scheme that is not in SR4, is not crazy-stupid, and which would falsify my claim, were it true. If you understand in a meaningful sense what I'm talking about, and I'm wrong, it shouldn't be terribly hard, it won't violate the NDA, and we won't have to wait for SR4 to come out.

[Synner]