 More news of Origins, yeah..I saw the good stuff |
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 Jul 4 2005, 10:38 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318  |
If everything is wireless, then, isn't it pretty easy to walk around with a whitenoise generator, killing off all local transmissions.
Yay for the magic types with Gremlins. |
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Jul 4 2005, 10:45 AM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
[/QUOTE]
What do you consider a "new" rule?
Unfortunately I don't think any of the play testers post on DS.
As you can "hack" a drone now, why all of the sudden is it a big deal?
Hadn't thought about it in a ret con kinda way but your right. Unless they explain it in some manner. Someone mentioned something 'bout SOTA:64 tieing in to this? If it's just a badly done ret con then I will have some problem with it. [QUOTE]edit]And since I'm posting anyway, I should point out that demos typically put the best possible face on a new game system. It's hard to notice systemic, long-term problems with advancement and flexibility--or even player control of combat--when you're just there to shoot a few bullets, drop some bad guys, and hang out with other fans. So I'm not sure that a demo really allows one to get a sense for whether a lot of the concerns that have been voiced here are valid or not.[QUOTE] I belive you are quit correct with this. However this applies to all demos not just SR4 demos. Thanos |
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Jul 4 2005, 11:06 AM
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#78
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
If we were all still using telegraph to communicate and purely mechanical modes of travel nobody would be worried about hackers today. How can you criticize SR4 for simply advancing the technology a bit? Of course more technology means more opportunities for people who knows how to manipulate it. Thatīs only a catastrophe if thereīs no protection from it. I doubt hacking will be a bigger part of the common shadowrun game for any reason eccept the fact that it might be easier to incorporate and more fun to play. Why would they make hackers gods? The potential power of a decker under the current rules is allready almost limitless, but still your average character canīt do much more than what is required in the job discription.
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Jul 4 2005, 11:46 AM
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#79
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
yes, you can derivate a telegraph.
A friend of mine is in a security IT business. In france no wi fi is used yet by military, because there is no real kind of protection. You can hacked a protect intranet. You don't need to hack a wi fi ... As a adept, I think I will more and more be happy with my gun without SM ! |
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Jul 4 2005, 11:49 AM
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#80
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Oh, I don't know. Something like the Small Unit Tactics skill for example. It seemed important enough that the rules were put in three sourcebooks (Man & Machine because of its effect on the Tactical Computer, Cannon Companion because it's Advanced Combat, and Matrix because of the BattleTac Matrixlink and the bonus it provides to decker teams running the program). Other than that, it's pretty open. A new rule can be any rule introduced in any book following the main book. After the main book, really, anything is "new."
What do you mean by a relatively opaque atmosphere to the frequency? One with a great deal of EM interference? IIRC, glass is opaque to IR, but I am guessing this refers more to the presence of a sufficient amount of matter which at a certain frequencies the space is rendered opaque, like this?
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Jul 4 2005, 11:57 AM
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#81
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
That does negate my example but the point is the same. Letīs say; If we were using stone-age technology, nobody would be worried about hackers. [edit] I understand that wireless tech is vulnerable, and it seems stupid to go that route. But that route is being taken anyway. New tech is developed, then ways to protect it from abuse are deviced if possible. I donīt beleive itīs unrealistic that more things will be using wireless in the future. And from a gaming point of view, there is still nothing that indicates hacker characters will be unballanced compaired to other characters, because that has to do with game design and not technology. |
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Jul 4 2005, 12:06 PM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but as I understand your statement even if all the following books were just catologs with equipment descriptions each pice of equipment would be a new rule? Also, to go back on what I said, I don't really remember them saying there would be no "new" rules in the 3 supplements it's just they would build on the rules in the BBB. That there would be no exceptions to how the game mechanics work, like there is now. Thanos |
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Jul 4 2005, 12:16 PM
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#83
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I'd say that's a pretty big misunderstanding, because I explicitly said the opposite to blakkie. "You seem to be incorporating stats into "rules," which is hardly my idea of what rules are." Rules are rules. Stats are stats.
That's different from what I read. You wrote, "There may be some fluff in there with the especially with the magic and bio/cyber, but that's it." I took that to mean exactly what you said, that there are no rules in these books. New rules, rules built on the core system, whatever. All you said was what I quoted. I don't consider rules, dice mechanics, whatever you call them, to be "fluff" either. Anyway, I see your point now. |
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Jul 4 2005, 12:19 PM
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#84
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Magic seems capped in another way now. That's why people were trying to get confirmation whether Initiation still raises Magic, and even if it does whether it is still capped (very likely). Magic loss was there before to curb Magic power runaway. Though apparently it only did that effectively for something around 1/2 the games as polled at DSF because the games were run such that Mages were able to avoid it. *shrug* P.S. I also haven't seen anything about being able to start with a Magic 1, just that Magic starts at 3.
:upsidedown: So the setting changed going from SR2 to SR3? Because grounding AoE spells through active foci was a bigger deal than Magic loss. In my mind there is a more pressing reason to avoid taking a "Deadly" wound (or whatever the equivalent would be). The ultimate Magic loss. Dead men cast no spells. :dead: The spirit summoning i'd put around the same level [edit]as grounding[/edit], but for me equally welcome change i would think. Not for shamans, since they had binding type options already. But for the hermetics that couldn't summon on the fly, they instead tapped previously bound elementals (still an option for bound?). So it is likely it will really just be an addition of an ability to the hermetic. I am curious if they'll address the change in fiction. |
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Jul 4 2005, 12:22 PM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
tamtam, smoke signal ... since you communicate at distance there IS a way to "hack" it. There is surely issues of security, and of area were hacking is possible. |
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Jul 4 2005, 12:39 PM
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#86
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That short rather vague description was done a while back, and it certainly wouldn't surprise me if it was a cut-and-paste mentally if not physically. However the intent had been to put into the BBB defining how traditions are built, then the new traditions become interations built under that. So then the framework of interactions between them and other elements of the game are defined back in the BBB. Does this mean that Street Magic would just sit on the shelf and you'd never have to open it? Of course not. However it would be easier to note the parameters of the tradition in short form, either on paper or mentally, to keep book openning to a minimum. Plus even when you did open it you are much less likely to have to refer to multiple locations in the Street Magic for a given topic. P.S. It doesn't sound like there will be new magical Skills past the base ones. The plan is to nix the addition of new Skills with metamagic. I haven't heard one word yet about Centering, as a Skill or action. Could be dead?
You have to ask specifically to be sent the Awakened version. A silly response? Yes, yet no more silly than your comment. :P |
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Jul 4 2005, 12:55 PM
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#87
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Taki: :P
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Jul 4 2005, 12:56 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
[/QUOTE]QUOTE (Thanos007) Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but as I understand your statement even if all the following books were just catologs with equipment descriptions each pice of equipment would be a new rule? I'd say that's a pretty big misunderstanding, because I explicitly said the opposite to blakkie. "You seem to be incorporating stats into "rules," which is hardly my idea of what rules are." Rules are rules. Stats are stats.
QUOTE
Also, to go back on what I said, I don't really remember them saying there would be no "new" rules in the 3 supplements it's just they would build on the rules in the BBB. That there would be no exceptions to how the game mechanics work, like there is now. That's different from what I read. You wrote, "There may be some fluff in there with the especially with the magic and bio/cyber, but that's it." I took that to mean exactly what you said, that there are no rules in these books. New rules, rules built on the core system, whatever. All you said was what I quoted. I don't consider rules, dice mechanics, whatever you call them, to be "fluff" either. [QUOTE] That is correct. Thats why I took it back and corrected my statment. Thanos |
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Jul 4 2005, 01:09 PM
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#89
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
yep, even a telegrah line could be "hacked". just tap into it somewhere along the railtrack and then start hammering out a message ;) and i wonder if not the rifle that kegetenchi linked to would in sr be considerd similar to how cyberdecks are. ie, just hte act of having it without licence and you risk a nice fine or jailtime. yes its draconian (if i understand the term right) but istn that a hallmark of cyberpunk? draconian communication laws? yes at the moment the gun is a proof of concept, but i wonder what the reaction would be if someone where to actualy use it for a crime. this is in the same area as pointing out a flaw in a server and posting some proof of concept code to show how said flaw can be used. today thats seen as peer review. but with tech crime on the rise i wonder how long it will be before the companys start asking the goverment to pass a law making the act of publicly telling how someone can break into a system a crime. its just a matter of extending the dmca. yes it will not fix the problem but what it will do is drive it underground, like the mafia. operate in the open and show of what you can do to everyone and before you know it your under 24/7 observation so that they can track where you get your info from. if you want to be paranoid then you should turn of your cellphone and remove its battery. unplug any electrical device from the wall. crush all of it into very tiny parts. get a nice number of rifles, handguns, shotguns and other weapons, and a even nicer stack of ammo, and dont forget the equipment to make more. then you get yourself a place in the middle of nowhere. set up a farm and start growing your own food. if someone comes within 1km of your place, fire a warning shot at best. at worst, aim to kill. now you should in theory be perfectly safe from anything baring a airstrike or a tank attack (and both can be fixed with the user of heavy equipment). but while doing all this your allso attracting a whole lot of goverment attention. same thing that will happen if you use a directional antenna to crack a random cops gun. rule one of cracking, the target should never know that they have been cracked. that rifle is a 15-min of fame kinda thing... edit: hmm, given my emotional and mental state today i shouldnt have typed a single line. they risk turning into a rant at the drop of a hat... |
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Jul 4 2005, 01:49 PM
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#90
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, but you're thinking more high powered, high frequency than I am. You're thinking Bluetooth, I'm thinking RFID. There's a difference.
I don't really see much reason why a wireless smartlink in 2070 would work like Bluetooth. It shouldn't need that much power, that high a frequency, or that much range. Even 10 meters is too much. When will you be firing a gun where that gun is 10 meters from your head? And yes, even with the lower powered, lower frequency transmission, it is still possible for a hacker with the right equipment to eavesdrop or intercept the transmission at some range (much shorter than if it were using Bluetooth though). But I don't really see a problem with that. The hacker still needs to be in the relative area with the right gear, and he'll still have obstacles to overcome (the natural defenses of the device or encryption of the signal, not to mention any hackers in the competition trying to prevent exactly what he's trying to do). |
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Jul 4 2005, 01:55 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
I've been tossing a thought around. What would possibly, over 5 years, make most of the population switch to wireless applications?
And the only thing I can come up with is SOTA improvement and monopolistic marketing. The big 8 decide to go wireless, and everyone else has to comply if they want SOTA gear. SOTA armor is tougher, and only SOTA guns, using wireless links, are good enough to keep the standard. Older guns are reduced in effective Power compared to SOTA. You'd have to retrofit a SOTA gun to remove the wireless components. It might even be problematic if the gun has no trigger, and is not prepared for hardwire reception. Anyhow, its a thin thought, realisticly, but I'd be interested to see how they choose to spin the official version. You know, to see if I was close. The Technomancers working on another "frequency" of "Magic" proved to be true. Nothing else rings like the "Deep Resonance". |
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Jul 4 2005, 02:04 PM
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#92
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
As for the rules supplements, Blakkie is on the right course, theoretically. I say theoretically because they aren't written yet, so there's no way to really say for sure yet.
Rules supplements will exist. They provide revenue stream for the game and allow for the further exploration of topics that some players might be interested in. Many games have them, even games with very simple mechanics. The idea, though, is that the rules in these supplements will not use new mechanics. Every optional, advanced rule shown in a rules supplement, whether it's a magical rule in Street Magic or an advanced combat rule in Arsenal, should use the same standard mechanics presented in the BBB. Like blakkie's example of traditions: if a new tradition is later added by a writer in a book, it should follow the existing rules in the BBB for creating traditions, the same exact way Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism were constructed, following the same mechanics. This was not the case in previous editions of Shadowrun. That's what SR4 intends to fix. |
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Jul 4 2005, 02:33 PM
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#93
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MechRigger Delux Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Hanger 18, WPAFB Member No.: 1,657 |
I think Demonseed make the right point there. I hate to use this comparison (forgive me Rob, Adam, bull...please) but the extra books seemed to me more like the extra d20 books for D&D... you use the same core mechanic and you give people more prestige classes, weapons and maybe a few optional rules that don't diverge from the core set.
Oh and after listening again..I forgot to mention...there's gonna be some corperate court reshuffling...so look for more changes in the Big group of powerbrokers.... to answer about the demo...I liked the demo...I kinda fell away from paying attention after I snagged the 4th ed playtest copy..I was keeping it hid so I could read it...but yeah...every game company is gonna put the good face on their product. That aside, the mechanics seemed to flow smoother, made combat a bit faster, made hacking seem a bit more integrated into play..made for interesting magicians. I did like it. there was alot of enthusiasm in the group running the demos ( I think most were playtesters too) It definately made me want to do 4th ed even more. And that's the way good demos should be...I do them for Wizkids and for Privateer Press, these guiys were doing them in top notch fashion You can start with 1 magic if you want...just add cyber and bio ware.. |
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Jul 4 2005, 02:38 PM
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#94
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
If the Initiation rules slide into Street Magic, and i'm presuming with it the basic Metamagics, would alone seem to be a sizable setback in attaining the goal. I hope they find some way to fit it in. At least a huge step can be made if they keep from bringing in new variations of dice rolling beyond opposed/fixed threshhold and the open ended test. P.S. Hey, nobody has posted yet what Initiative looks like in the current transcript. Come on EDT and CDT slackers, you should be finished reading your Monday morning work email by now. :P EDIT:
We could always do that. :P So essense loss happens the same as previously? Although if base starting Magic is 3 that might mean Magic 1 will be relatively more workable than with SR3. |
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Jul 4 2005, 02:39 PM
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#95
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I do too. I've been fighting hard (and so have other playtesters) for Initiation to be in the core book. I think it needs to be. |
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Jul 4 2005, 02:48 PM
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#96
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Thinking back of old SR2 times, when it was iirc not included into the core book, i can only support that. It sucks when you play a mage and don't know how to raise your magic attribute.
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Jul 4 2005, 03:29 PM
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#97
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I still really want to know how Drain is calculated in SR4.
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Jul 4 2005, 03:28 PM
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#98
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Even if Initiation isn't what raises your Magic Attribute (not confirmed one way or another yet), having the basic mechanics of metamagic in another book would suck huge donkey...things. I don't care if they only provide 3 metamagics, and they save some flavour text for initiation or some of the initiation rites options for Street Magic. Just get the basics down. But i don't mean basics done SR3 style where metamagic wasn't there and MitS initiation was a different rule than say the Adepts 20 karma/PP so that you had two base rules. |
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Jul 4 2005, 03:36 PM
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#99
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Yes, enquiring minds want to know. Along with the likely related question what does Force mean in regards to spells, if still applicable. Do spells follow in the same vein as the rest we've seen where a Force 6 spell will become something to recon with as opposed to just the standard purchase for a beginning PCs Manabolt? |
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Jul 4 2005, 04:45 PM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
:rotfl: :grr: :evil: ;-) |
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