 Changes to Magic |
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 Jul 4 2005, 02:29 PM
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#1
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Free Spirit  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920  |
The bound or unbound part doesn‘t bother me too much, but the same basic spirits does. So what is the point of playing a shaman? So everyone knows who to geek when your mask becomes visible?
This actually sounds like a good idea, assuming there is a group discount, or is it just the in demand skills that everyone needs to help speed up chargen?
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Jul 4 2005, 03:43 PM
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#2
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Either would be good. With a tripling or more of the build points, and the likely change to some sort of progressive costs for at least Attributes, i'm guessing things that speed up chargen are going to be very appreciated. :( Like cyberware/bioware essense costs totaling together instead of the current mesh of affairs. For chargen alone i welcome that change. |
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Jul 4 2005, 05:21 PM
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#3
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
about those spirits, maybe he was thinking 5-6 groups of spirits rather then 5-6 spirits. ie, elementals, spirits of the sky, spirits of the land, spirits of man, spirits of water...
same as is today realy. allso, there is the term base in there. this could mean that here could be 6 basic stats but lists diffrent abliltys that the spirit type can take on given some conditions. ie, if your in the middle of the city and you summon the base spirit type of man it may take on hearth or city depening on where you are in said city. |
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Jul 4 2005, 07:13 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: 27-January 03 From: Kentucky, USA Member No.: 3,958 |
I've always figured the masks to be more flavor than anything else. I never enforced them in play. Alternately, maybe other spirit types cause a similar effect (summoning a Fire Elemental wreathes you in translucent flames briefly, etc.). ;) |
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Jul 4 2005, 10:03 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Taking that comment at face value (6 to choose from, pick 5), it sounds like SR4 will have drastically less distinction between different magical traditions, once you consider the temporary vs. permanent summoning thing. There might be some differences in flavor text, but basically, a magician is a magician; tradition is irrelevant but presumably player selection of spells still matters.
I'm not sure whether this is a gameplay improvement or not. Players typically like not being limited--but then if there aren't clearly distinct paths with advantages and disadvantages, most everyone makes the same choice and the result is boring. (It kind of makes me wonder what the elven path magic will end up as--if it exists at all, will the paths now be different in name only?) I think the change makes the dynamics of magical ability a lot less interesting. In SR3, and previously, the different abilities of hermetics and shamen made the disagreements between them plausible; they were different, and they therefore had something to disagree about, and there was something interesting and curious to be explained--why were they different? Now, it's sounding like that's all gone; hermeticism vs. shamanism is replaced by a Baskin-Robbins' worth of magical flavors, all a matter of taste with at best minor variations in the number of calories and whether there are nuts or chocolate. From a storyline perspective, this seems counterproductive. |
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| Guest_Overwatch_* |
Jul 4 2005, 10:08 PM
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#6
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Guests |
It's also possible that they will change the rules for magic detection. Perhaps all spells now have some kind of visual element based on force, wether it be a glowey ball of energy, or a translucent red wolf's head. Man, I'd really like a look at the magic section of SR4...
Hurry up Gen Con!! |
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Jul 4 2005, 10:12 PM
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#7
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Spells have always had a detection factor based on force, regardless of the spell type or category. I believe the TN to detect the spell was 10-Force of the Spell, but don;t quote me on that. It's something close to that though.
Bull |
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| Guest_Overwatch_* |
Jul 4 2005, 10:23 PM
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#8
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Guests |
Yeah, thats how the system works now, but visually shamans have the shamanic masks to deal with, and as far as i know hermetics don't have any visual give aways. My thought was that maybe they'll level that particular playing field. in fact they'd have to, if they use the same creation mechanic to build both traditions in SR4.
Unless magical manifestation is some kind of optional component that can be tacked on or removed from whatever tradition you are building. |
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Jul 4 2005, 10:47 PM
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#9
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
a shamanic mask gives -2 on the perception check.
and doing something with a totem advantage nets you a -1 on the same check. still, if they keep the totem advantages around then it may still be fun to play a shaman. most people probably allready select them on the basis of cool rather then stats anyways. a min-maxing power gamer will 100% of the time go physical mage as it gets the best of both magical worlds and dont have to deal with stuff like totems. or, people select coyote as totem as they then are not restricted by any rules outside of the spirits. maybe shamans get some sort of bonus when "ordering" unbound spirits around? hmm, the term unbound spirit makes my neckhair stand. the barrier between unbound and free may be a thin one at best... |
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Jul 4 2005, 10:55 PM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I didn't get that at all from his description. It sounds like unbound just means temporarily summoned, like the base conjuring shamans do now. The "bound"ness being more whether they are bound to our plane or not, not whether they are bound to the summoner. If they are not bound [tight enough] they return from whence they came at sunrise/sunset. I think the curious part is whether shamans will have to shell out similar money/resources for binding spirits as hermetics currently do for the elementals. That was the trade-off i aways saw between hermetic and totem. Cash costs vs. masks & totem loyalty. Once you got a few metamagics and some karma under you belt the shaman had access to comparable on-tap spirits. |
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Jul 4 2005, 11:14 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,278 Joined: 15-April 05 Member No.: 7,336 |
I'd like to echo the concerns about distinctions between shamanism and hermeticism going the way of the dinosaur -- it will be a loss if shamans and mages become identical. While I doubt that these extremes will actually come to pass, it is enough to worry me.
What are the general feelings regarding the changes in spell force? |
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Jul 4 2005, 11:15 PM
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#12
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
The perception test to notice spellcasting was 4 + Magic Attribute - Force, subject to further modifiers like the -2 for shamen and -1 for spell with totem bonus. I think Ellery meant more like summoning is going to be about the same as spellcasting was between the traditions. No more access to only one types of spirits. And the powers those spirits granted were a major influence on what tradition was chosen. Some had very unique powers. Now it sounds like you can choose all but one type.
Paying for conjuring materials is over-rated anyway. All the hermetics I know make their own. You say a few metamagics and some karma like it is insignificant. The hermetic had no huge use for Invoking and other metamagics were a bigger priority. So the shaman was having to get the metamagic and spend a bit of karma just to level the field. And the spirits still left at dusk/dawn.
It depends on what they are going to cost to learn. Are they now going to cost 1, 5, 10 or how much karma? Or are you going to get so many spells with each initiation? How will they price spell formula? How do you learn them, that was force dependant? |
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Jul 4 2005, 11:19 PM
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#13
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Unbound spirits are what Shaman's summon under 3rd ed. They leave at Dusk/Dawn.
Bound spirits are what hermentics summon now. Ritual summons them and binds them for an indefinate (or at least lengthy) amount of time until all their services are used. Bull |
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Jul 4 2005, 11:43 PM
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#14
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
May that entire set of learning rules rot in whatever hell they are relegated to. A festering example of the garbage that clogged SR3. Another reason for thinking highly of no Force associated with learning a spell. Whatever learning proccess there is you'll only have to go through it once for each spell. |
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Jul 4 2005, 11:48 PM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I don't like the sound of 5 of 6 either. But then what the 6 represent i'm not sure. Street Magic adds to the 6, i wonder if the Traditions still pick 5 from that expanded pool? P.S. Hermetics being able to summon spirits could be a natural outcome of the UMT from SOTA:2063. |
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Jul 4 2005, 11:58 PM
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#16
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Don't suppose you noticed if there were any major changes to adepts whilst you were riffling through the papers? :) Interested since they're my favourite characters to play. I'm looking forward to the Magician's Way rules and everyone's, probable, bitching about them. ;)
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Jul 5 2005, 12:39 PM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I had a dream that the Magician's Way became obsolete. That there was nolonger a need for that kludge because there was a mechanism designed and built into the system that allowed awakened characters to use abilities in both. But then again i was sleeping with my head on a running magnetic tape blanker at the time. :) |
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| Guest_Overwatch_* |
Jul 5 2005, 04:12 PM
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#18
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Guests |
I have a feeling that wireless technology, even for smartguns and the like will be ubiquitous in SR4. Simply for the flow of game mechanics and the integration of deckers.
If a group of guards come around the corner, the mage can affect them with his manabolt, the adept can affect them with his gung-fu, and the sammie can definitely affect them with his HK 227. With wireless additions to smartgun links, helmet optics, etc., now the decker can also affect them via hacking. Now I'm not sure what effect this will have on the feel of Shadowrun, but it serves to more fully lure the script kiddies out of mom's basement. Those bulk tape erasers make too much noise to sleep.. try wearing a nice degaussing coil around your head instead. |
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Jul 5 2005, 04:18 PM
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#19
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
There was never the need for that kludge. The problem with pre-SR4 magic is that people lost sight of what the magic system was designed as and tried to either combine elements that didn't go together (Magician's Way Adept, Unified Magical Theory) or add elements that didn't belong (additional traditions). This problem has been taken to the furthest extreme possible in SR4. ~J |
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Jul 5 2005, 04:22 PM
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#20
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
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Jul 5 2005, 04:34 PM
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#21
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
I have a feeling that you guys may be taking this out of proportions. Although it's hard to imagine for me, what the 6 types of spirits might be available at char gen are, because no matter how i do the math, i always think of more than 6 that could be available just coming from the BBB sr.3, i think that going run of the mill shamanic/hermetic will result in some sort of similar set up we have now. I think i can think of atleast 8 different combinations that would be possible under sr3: choose 5: spirit of the sea, spirit of the sky, spirit of the land, spirit of man, fire elemental, water elemental, earth elemental, air elemental. perhaps the original author mis-remembered, and the number is actually "choose 4" which would then give you the standard hermetic and shamanic selections? theres no other way i can think of that would break what is in sr 3 into something similar for sr 4, but this is just a guestimation. |
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Jul 5 2005, 05:00 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 11-August 03 Member No.: 5,408 |
Watcher Spirits
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Jul 5 2005, 05:00 PM
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#23
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Elementals
Nature Spirits Spirits of the Elements Ancestor Spirits Watchers (Allies?) NPC'ish Blood Spirits Insect Spirits Toxic Spirits |
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Jul 5 2005, 05:01 PM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I have a hard time coming up with only 6 too. I'm starting to wonder if those base types include catagories like Watchers, Free Spirits, and Elementals. I know Free Spirits are really just a state of many other types, but they might be classified that way. *shrug* So then the formerly standard PC totemic spirits; spirit of the sea, spirit of the sky, spirit of the land, spirit of man, etc., get lumped under one base type that the Hermetic tradition does not take. *shrug* Going that route though i'm coming up short of 6 unless they start including Blood and Toxic. But then there are issues that Hell Hound brings up. Anyone else able to see the catagories that i could be missing going that route? EDIT: Damn you phelious fogg and your short, quick posts. :P |
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Jul 5 2005, 05:01 PM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Lwa! ~J |
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