about those spirits, maybe he was thinking 5-6 groups of spirits rather then 5-6 spirits. ie, elementals, spirits of the sky, spirits of the land, spirits of man, spirits of water...

same as is today realy. allso, there is the term base in there. this could mean that here could be 6 basic stats but lists diffrent abliltys that the spirit type can take on given some conditions.

ie, if your in the middle of the city and you summon the base spirit type of man it may take on hearth or city depening on where you are in said city.

Taking that comment at face value (6 to choose from, pick 5), it sounds like SR4 will have drastically less distinction between different magical traditions, once you consider the temporary vs. permanent summoning thing. There might be some differences in flavor text, but basically, a magician is a magician; tradition is irrelevant but presumably player selection of spells still matters.

I'm not sure whether this is a gameplay improvement or not. Players typically like not being limited--but then if there aren't clearly distinct paths with advantages and disadvantages, most everyone makes the same choice and the result is boring. (It kind of makes me wonder what the elven path magic will end up as--if it exists at all, will the paths now be different in name only?)

I think the change makes the dynamics of magical ability a lot less interesting. In SR3, and previously, the different abilities of hermetics and shamen made the disagreements between them plausible; they were different, and they therefore had something to disagree about, and there was something interesting and curious to be explained--why were they different? Now, it's sounding like that's all gone; hermeticism vs. shamanism is replaced by a Baskin-Robbins' worth of magical flavors, all a matter of taste with at best minor variations in the number of calories and whether there are nuts or chocolate. From a storyline perspective, this seems counterproductive.

It's also possible that they will change the rules for magic detection. Perhaps all spells now have some kind of visual element based on force, wether it be a glowey ball of energy, or a translucent red wolf's head. Man, I'd really like a look at the magic section of SR4...

Hurry up Gen Con!!

Spells have always had a detection factor based on force, regardless of the spell type or category. I believe the TN to detect the spell was 10-Force of the Spell, but don;t quote me on that. It's something close to that though.

Bull

Yeah, thats how the system works now, but visually shamans have the shamanic masks to deal with, and as far as i know hermetics don't have any visual give aways. My thought was that maybe they'll level that particular playing field. in fact they'd have to, if they use the same creation mechanic to build both traditions in SR4.

Unless magical manifestation is some kind of optional component that can be tacked on or removed from whatever tradition you are building.

a shamanic mask gives -2 on the perception check.
and doing something with a totem advantage nets you a -1 on the same check.

still, if they keep the totem advantages around then it may still be fun to play a shaman. most people probably allready select them on the basis of cool rather then stats anyways. a min-maxing power gamer will 100% of the time go physical mage as it gets the best of both magical worlds and dont have to deal with stuff like totems.

or, people select coyote as totem as they then are not restricted by any rules outside of the spirits.

maybe shamans get some sort of bonus when "ordering" unbound spirits around?

hmm, the term unbound spirit makes my neckhair stand. the barrier between unbound and free may be a thin one at best...

I'd like to echo the concerns about distinctions between shamanism and hermeticism going the way of the dinosaur -- it will be a loss if shamans and mages become identical. While I doubt that these extremes will actually come to pass, it is enough to worry me.

What are the general feelings regarding the changes in spell force?

The perception test to notice spellcasting was 4 + Magic Attribute - Force, subject to further modifiers like the -2 for shamen and -1 for spell with totem bonus.

I think Ellery meant more like summoning is going to be about the same as spellcasting was between the traditions. No more access to only one types of spirits. And the powers those spirits granted were a major influence on what tradition was chosen. Some had very unique powers. Now it sounds like you can choose all but one type.

Unbound spirits are what Shaman's summon under 3rd ed. They leave at Dusk/Dawn.

Bound spirits are what hermentics summon now. Ritual summons them and binds them for an indefinate (or at least lengthy) amount of time until all their services are used.

Bull

Don't suppose you noticed if there were any major changes to adepts whilst you were riffling through the papers? Interested since they're my favourite characters to play. I'm looking forward to the Magician's Way rules and everyone's, probable, bitching about them.

I have a feeling that wireless technology, even for smartguns and the like will be ubiquitous in SR4. Simply for the flow of game mechanics and the integration of deckers.

If a group of guards come around the corner, the mage can affect them with his manabolt, the adept can affect them with his gung-fu, and the sammie can definitely affect them with his HK 227. With wireless additions to smartgun links, helmet optics, etc., now the decker can also affect them via hacking.

Now I'm not sure what effect this will have on the feel of Shadowrun, but it serves to more fully lure the script kiddies out of mom's basement.



Those bulk tape erasers make too much noise to sleep.. try wearing a nice degaussing coil around your head instead.

Watcher Spirits

Elementals
Nature Spirits
Spirits of the Elements
Ancestor Spirits
Watchers
(Allies?)

NPC'ish
Blood Spirits
Insect Spirits
Toxic Spirits

Is that a typo of Loa?

Hmm... Some bastardized amalgamation of Loa/Totem/Idol/Pagan God spirits, perhaps?

but werent ancestor spirits just another type of spirit of man?

and i agree the "corrupt" spirits should and likely will end up being held off until the street magic book. But i think SL james has a better list than i do, aside from the fact that it's also pulling from MiTS, but i think thats a good thing. Have all the available spirit types show up in the core book, and then, for those that may not want to spend the time making their own traditions, letting the street magic book give more archetypes beyond shamanic and hermetic.

Well, they're listed in MitS with the same weight as Loa, Zombies, Watchers, Allies, Free Spirits, Great Forms, Ghosts, Spirits of the Elements, and "Unique" spirits. I guess they're a type of spirits of man, but they don't seem to be the same in any way else than they have some sort of connection to humanity.

Binding seems to cover Free Spirits and Great Forms if you stretch the interpretation (I won't, but feel free). Maybe it's Allies. Maybe it's something else like Loa, or Ghosts, or Zombies, or something we've never seen before.

Kagetenshi: Ah. Okay.

When I heard the 5 of 6 types, I was guessing they would combine all water type spirits, all air type spirits, all spirits of man (ancestor), etc.. But it still doesn't add up.

I think tisoz is right because I kind of remember one of the people at the demos saying that mages choose from specific types not broad categories so choices would be something like:

spirits of man
spirits of the sky
spirits of the water
drekcetera

I have the sneaking suspicion that loas, ancestors, et al will once again be lumped into the Street Magic book.

Allies are a separate category altogether since they can be any type of spirit and are basically just souped up bound spirits.

Going with the "combine all fire spirits" idea:

Fire Spirit
Water Spirit
Air Spirit
Earth Spirit
Heart Spirit
Watcher Spirit

That makes six, plus if you choose correctly you can summon Captain Planet.

Well...all the munchkins will be sure that they can take Captain Planet...I can't see how SR4 can not have him be the best of the spirits...

I suspect that that bound and unbound will match up with elementals and nature spirits in terms of summoning setup. Unbound will probably be on a time limit and what kind of spirit you can get will be restricted by where you are when you try to summon one. Bound will probably take time to summon but not have a time limit before it leaves, and you can get any kind of spirit you want by preparing the right materials for the summoning process.

For me the bigger question is will all the spirit powers and uses from 3rd edition still be there? The powers of nature spirits (conealment, movement, accident, etc), the uses for elementals (sustaining spells, bonus spell dice, extra set of 'hands' in combat), the powers of the loa (possessing the summoner or another person), will they still all be present? I suppose one possibility is that the spirit 'types' will define the powers those spirits have as well as or instead of their elemental affiliations.

Unfortunately, we do not have anywhere near enough information for me to guess how they are doing powers. It is a guess just to try to figure how they are getting 6 types.

Tisoz got it there...at least that's what I remember from the presentation. Unbound are like shaman's spirits...time limit, from sunup to sundown or vicy versa, and bound will take longer, but last longer (likely a # of services based on opposed successes)

And I think the elemental style breakdown with the addition of Wacthers and hearth/man are about how its going to go. Most of the extrainious spirits will likey be in Street Magic (toxics, Insects, drekcetera)...I think your tradition will define how you percive and use the spirits (Shintos will see spirits of man as ancestors, while a hermetic might see a golem or bound demon)

well just another 2 from your freindly nieghborhood Hazenator...

lets wait with the judgement until we see it in print ok?
it may well sound worse then it is...