Your opinion is a completely valid one, however I've always kinda thought that had more to do with how complex the thingy you are enchanting was. For example, gun = lots of parts, Rock...just rock. From a balance point of view, an enchanted gun is a lot handier than an enchanted rock (well maybe, but an enchanted rock could be pretty cool). I'm not sure I'd call magic/technology a core issue, maybe more of a side note that things that have been steralised tend to be that way on both planes?

I don't really know much about SR before the third edition, but I wouldn't say that man vs machine is pervasive. You raise an interesting concept, but it isn't one I would have picked up on without someone bringing it to my attention. I've never seen magic and technology as being at odds in any kind of fighting way. Sure, removing chunks of your body and replacing them with steel lowers essence and hence magic, but that does not mean that technology and magic hold any ill will against each other, just means that cyberware is not a good conductor of magic. Magic is still pretty rare anyway compared to other things like technology, so I guess I've never seen it as a vs thing. I suppose you could use that aspect in a campagin but I wouldn't call it a key component of the game.

I was trying to achieve the distraction effect with the word game in caps, and it worked better for me in italics.

But what about a wind chime made out of rare twigs, branches, seashells, and coral? That's incredibly complicated at all scales, thanks largely to the action of formerly living beings, and yet it's easy to enchant.

I really wouldn't call that complicated, I mean, it's pretty for sure, but I could make one of those, fact think I have (I like windchimes, sans magic though)... I'd be pretty hard pressed to actually make a gun. A gun is still by far more complex, and I may be wrong, but isn't it still easier to enchant a rock, or say a lump of metal?

If I'm reading MitS correctly, I was wrong, the nature of an item doesn't really matter. what matters is 1) Did you make the item yourself. 2) Did you harvest the components for the item yourself. So if you happen to be a metalurgist, and a gunsmith, you can apply both the virign and the handmade Telsma modifiers to your enchanting test. So the nature doesn't matter as much as the items closeness to the enchanter. No nature necessairy.

Point taken.

The difference between a technological device and a highly complex nontechnological device is much more pronounced in target numbers for spells.

With enchanting, it's there, but it's more subtle (in that you can "harvest" an orange, but not a semiconductor from a FAB plant).

Ok, I'll admit I'm a bit foggy in this area, but you've got me curious. How does tech affect TN?
(Other than the whole people with tons of cybeware are harder to heal through magic which is the one I can think of)

Hrmm, Isn't OR mostly how hard it is, like plasticreet is higher than tile? Or am I thinking something else or only part of it?

Ok, now I'm having a duh moment, I'd totally spaced this, Does this apply to all spells, or just as noted? Man, I totally missed this.

So like if I wanted to cast a analysie device spell on a deck, it'd be the normal TN + the OR?
I've been letting my players off easy. Thank you for the help, I do see your point about magic a lot clealer now.

You're throwing a lot at me that I didn't say or believe I even portrayed.

Of course its subjective. Did Michelangelo create good art? Did SR1 have more of a folklore and cyberpunk feel than SR2?

I never said anything about Mages being all corporate. But read the SR1 literature (and even much after) and you'll find that the logical thinking mind of the mage is much more in agreement. Magic and Machine aren't at war, but there is a choice.

Western nations with their logic, corporations, and mages? or Native American Nations with their respect for nature, Shamans, and Paranormal critters? Cultural Traditions or Technological progress? Man meets Magic and Machine and weaves his way between them.

Late SR2 lost me and many others when everything just kind of became explained away with "Magic". SR4 will lose me just as quick if it tries to explain all of magic away with formulas and tech.

P.S. - Many people seem to think Earthdawn was somehow hinted about from the beginning of SR1. It wasn't. Earthdawn borrowed far more from Shadowrun than Shadowrun every borrowed or tried to make a connection to ED.

Depends on your way of looking at it, but... Yeah. The nature of Magic in SR is that it's cyclic. It rises and falls in cycles, and within each cycle there's either a peak or a valley, with the Mana level starting at a median point, and builing up or falling even lower, before heading back to that median point.

If I recall my ED Lore well enough (I'm more than a little fuzzy on those details), ED took place in the 4th world, which was a magic "Up cycle" like Shadowrun's 6th world. ED takes place as the Magic is coming back down from it's high point, still far higher than where SR is currently. The big bad Horrors are able to freely move about the world when the Magic is at it's highest, but as it lowers they are limited in their influence, until they;'re shut out completely. In ED, they're blocked off but can still manipulate events,and a few can still interact with the world, I think.

In SR, eventually the magic level will rise high enough for the Horrors to return. In ED, the populace sealed themselves away in magical caerns to hide.

Regardless though, this could be thousands of years off (Though some of the SR2ish storyline stuff revolved around attempts to weaken the barriers and bring this stuff about. The Dragonheart Trilogy patched that up, and put things back on track.

Not sure if you're referring to me or not here, but whatever. I'm actually not 100% what you mean by this, really... Unless you mean getting rid of tech so we're just left with Magic for "ED 6th World", there isn;t much difference from what I would envision as ED 6th World and, to some degree, Rifts. SUper High Tech mixed with Uber Magic. Again, not really something to worry about, though... I don't envision SR ever getting that far along.

SR3 had it's share of these. Look at YotC, for example. And Dragonheart didn't sever anything... It just marked the return to how things were "supposed to be", and the toning back from the metaplot being so centered on that sort of thing.

[quote]P.S. - Many people seem to think Earthdawn was somehow hinted about from the beginning of SR1. It wasn't. Earthdawn borrowed far more from Shadowrun than Shadowrun every borrowed or tried to make a connection to ED. [quote]

Actually, go back and reread the Adventures and such for SR1 sometime. It wasn't ED specifically, but there were references to a previous age of Magic.

I always have to point this out, because a lot of folks aren't aware of it, but ED wasn't really designed to be SR's past. That's why there are a number of inconsistancies that have since been explained away due to a "Higher magic level" or "They died off during the downcycle". But close to release, someone at FASA said "Hey, we keep hinting at a past age of magic, why not link our games?"

Immortal Elves were in 1st ed. Horrors were, or at least references to Horror like critters.

<shrug>

Bull

Who dosen't like crazy AI?

I appologise for misinterpeting what you where saying. Somehow I got that you where saying that they where complete opponents in shadworun. Again, I appologise.

I'm not sure SR4 will explain magic away. When I read the whole pick x spirits thing. I was thinking more there where a fixed number per tradition, and you choose which you handeld. So a mage would have a seperate pool to pick from.

At least SR4 (as far as we know) doesn't have any references to Shamanism being a mental disorder?

To be fair, the AI storyline that climaxed with the shutdown began 15 years ago, so it's not like they just decided all of the sudden to make the AEP sentient because the ED ties wound down.

You have no-where to talk.

Exactly, and that's what Mike and later Rob were shooting for. The links still exist. ED is still the 4th world. It's just not a plot issue anymore, but rather background information.

Bull

You say it like its a bad thing.

If you mean a Weapon foci which add their Rating to the appropriate Armed Combat skill rating (or in SR4's case dice pool), then I think it's likely. I don't see much difference with regards to SR3 in that respect though.