God, I hope not.

What about Adept powers like Combat Sense, which adds dice to Combat Pool and allows percentages of Combat Pool dice to be used for Surprise Tests. If there isn't a combat pool in Fourth Edition, then we lose my favorite Adept power. If there's something like it, then... what could it be?

Rob mentioned in the mp3 Adam put up that there might be some tactical programs in Unwired (or whatever the Matrix books will be called in the end) that work like the Initiative bonus provided by the Small Unit Tactics skill (Actually he said they'd "add Initiative dice" which is itself something I will ask about later), which is something the Tactical Computer provides a bonus to, and that piece of tech in Man & Machine happens to work like a cyber version of Combat Sense. So... I don't know where I'm going with this anymore. Basically, what about Combat Sense?

From my experience I'd say magic isn't any easier. Furthermore people are mistaking the streamlining and unification of the underlying mechanics with unification of the in game paradigms of magic, mana, spirits of each tradition respective. For instance, in game, hermetics will still call elementals and shamans will still call nature spirits (it's the rules behind them that have been redressed and altered).

I dunno; knowing fireball, and being able to cast it at whatever level you want, is easier than knowing fireball 4, and stuck with casting a level 4.

Hermetics can now summon an 'unbound' spirit on the fly - he couldn't do that 'five years ago'. Shamens can now bond a nature spirit to them for loinger than the dusk/dawn time limits. Thats also 'easier'. (IMHO)

Those two items alone comes across as - in my interpretation - magic is easier to use.

So you mean by 6 spirit types something like the following list:

- watchers
- unbound spirits
- bound sprits
- great form spirits
- posessive spirits
- allies

Did I get that correctly?

I doubt that "toxic" is going to be on the list, as that would either open up the Toxic way to PCs or result in every PC spellslinger having the same list. More likely is that they have spirit types 1-6, and toxics get 5 out of spirit types Toxic 1-6, inheriting 1-6 but with the toxic additions/alterations.

~J

Allright, what other kind of spirit could be meant?

Edit: changed my list. Lwa posess people too, that's not a speciality of inect shamen.

Which, by the way, just got a lot more mighty.

I think it's not going too far by saying that list doesn't reflect the intended breakdown in SR4.

-fire spirits
-water spirits
-air spirits
-earth spirits
-spirits of man
-watchers
-ancestor spirits
-allys

maybe?

That list sounds good - except for toxic. I would guess you can have toxic bound, unbound, ally and even wathce4rs - Toxic might be a traddition.

Ancestor maybe?




**
Sorry Synner, either I'm not explaining what I mean very well, or your not getting it

My guess is that insect shamans, if they don't have a rules exception, are also just going to have a new spirit type that inherits normal spirit types.

~J

Eh, I'd put Insect under Nature Spirits - A 'Limited by tradition' type clause. As well as Blood. And toxic would just be a 'template' to slip over any tradition.

Loa as well - a limited by tradition type.

And ally, well that would kinda suck it that were a type you'd have to choose from. Who's gonna want to waste initial char resources on a spirit he may not be able to summon for years? I'd slip Ally as a meta-magical technique. (Assuming you can not add that 6th type in later somehow)

Watchers
elementals
nature spirits
Ancestor

Thats a good start, but no guesses on the rest. Or I could be completley off base.

Yeah, I get that. But lets say someone starts off an expierenced runner campaign in SR4 - something closer to the power level of a starting sr3 char. So it would be possible to have a magic: 6 character - with higher skills.

I guess thats what I'm getting at; a comparable SR4 char vs a Comparable beginning SR3 char.

I'm assuming that at the very least a Magical character converting from SR3 is going to have his skills reduced when broken up or will have to reallocate those skill points at SR4 costs to SR4 skills (pretty much the route I believe a conversion guide will go to keep abuse in check) - which might make him slightly more powerful than the default SR4 newb character, but not immensely so.

The introduction of Skill Groups (mentioned at Origins) also changes things a bit.

Can you give us a clue as to how these work? Are these now put between the actual skill and attributes when defaulting?

Nope. Although iirc the second part of the podcast (which Adam has promised to upload as soon as he can) should clarify Skill Groups further.

Got my list of 5 spirit types right here

Toxic spirits
Blood spirits
Insect spirits
Sheddim
either Great Dragon spirits (Ghostie and Dunkie) or one minor Horror

Feel the power of the Dark side of the Farce

The short version: I don't feel that traditions other than hermetics or shamans (and adepts), or combinations of traditions (like physical adepts, or Universal Magical Theory hermetic-shamanic crossbreeds), belong in Shadowrun. While they've been made unplayable, I feel that the only "valid" new tradition offered has been psionicists—precisely because they aren't a new tradition, just somewhat delusional followers of one of the base two traditions.

Blakkie is assuming that other traditions or hybrid traditions should be implemented (or implementable), and that therefore the inelegance of such implementations under the current rules demonstrates that the rules are flawed. The correct view, in my opinion, is that other traditions and hybrids have no place in Shadowrun, and that the need for a kludge to introduce them reflects that the entire idea is an attempt to fit a square peg into a SODIMM slot.

~J

In my opinion, yes, rule them out. Voudoun in particular is impossible to implement well even with a magic system designed to accept multiple traditions simply because to accurately represent the single most important part of being a Houngan requires handing off control to the GM for the entire duration of pretty much anything significantly important. Other than that, yes, I believe the original designers should have stuck to their guns and had some traditions be flat-out wrong.

Regarding the UMT, that's fair. I suppose it would be more correctly put that I don't agree with the philosophy of allowing those limitations to be capable of being overcome.

~J

As with many things, magic is always a work-in-progress. You can't represent every system of magic as you'd like to, so you have to pick and choose. Then you have to fit them into the existing system, and see what you can come up with to make it unique without being unbalancing.

Hermetics are probably the easiest magicians to relate to; pure vanilla. You can go pick up a load of Hellblazer and Dr. Strange comics and have fun, re-create Harry Potter's post-pubescent self, whatever. Aside from those cheeky elementalists introduced in the Grimoire, they were a dime-a-dozen-I think they were ripe for the styles in Magic in the Shadows and the schools in State of the Art: 2064.

Shamans have always been a bit more fun, if only because you don't have to aspire to a white tower and a pointy hat with a beard. They tend to get the shaft, though. Insect shamans, toxic shamans, wendigo...and then everybody wants their own set of totems and a reason to explain why /theire/ Siberian saman, Pueblo Cochina dancer, Catholic Idol-worshipper and Australian koradji is different and unique and special and most definately not a shaman. Hell, Druidism and Voudoun both split off from shamans, and even physads snuggled into the action with Totem Way adepts. What a mess. The styles in Magic in the Shadows at least let you customize a character while keeping it in line with the original concept.

Druidism, as it was presented in the London Sourcebook and the first Grimoire, became hopelessly too powerful when mixed with the oft-lamented Germany Sourcebook and Tir na nOg (the latter in particular was a ball-buster).
If you want to complain about wishy-washy traditions, this thing takes the cake: magical adepts, hermetics, Idol-followers, nature-shamans, animal-shamans, mythic-shamans, path magicians...oy.

Voudoun was kicked off in Awakenings, and I really liked it m'self (oh, we could have the arguement about real vs. Shadowrun-style voudoun, but that's messy), even with the addition and corrections made in Cyberpirates! and Target: Smuggler Havens. Still, I think Magic in the Shadows was a step in the right direction for Voudoun.
Arguably the most mutated tradition, Voudoun was the bastard child of shamanism with a few twists (loa achete, govi, ancestor spirits, voudounistas, zombies) and changed significantly.

Wujen really got their start in the Underworld Sourcebook (as anyone who's read the old Shadis article will heartily agree), but didn't even begin to resemble a reasonable and enticing tradition until Magic in the Shadows. Tattoo Magic just doesn't cut it.

Yes. They aren't in yours?

~J

An Ally Spirit, and especially a bound Free Spirit, absolutely is a part of the "rest of the world". I know I'd trust a lot of my players to play them, but I at least find it not particularly fun to play a secondary character actively trying to break free of my primary character, and in the case of a bound spirit probably actively working to subvert my primary character—that sort of thing is best left to the GM.

~J

i don't think it's quite fair to make an ally spirit an NPC. they are extremely expensive, and it's flat-out unfair to turn something into which a player sinks a significant chunk of their resources into a toy for the GM--or, worse, a liability that the GM regularly uses against the character. now, a bound spirit? that's fair game for the GM. those are free, and TANSTASFL.

likewise, with voudoun, there's no reason that total control has to be handed off to the GM. there are too many unknowns with magic to say concretely that tradition X would work in manner Y. all you can do is look at them as they are in the real world, and extrapolate.

I allow some leadway. Magicians can expect obedience from their ally spirits, but they should interact with them, not play them as another character. I fully trust them to have the ally do anything they ask it to do, and I completely agree the player should has a say over it's actions-it is perfectly reasonable for the ally to attempt to save the magician without being asked. It's unreasonable for a GM to use it to screw over the player...all the time.

Bound free spirits are most definately NPCs. It'll follow the player's direct commands and any bargains it makes, but the GM determines how it carries those orders out.

Loa spirits possessing houngans and mambos...t'be frank, it's always been my understanding in voodoo that when a loa mounts the houngan, they do pretty much whatever they damn well want anyway. In my games-you may have your own interpretation-the player is allowed to roleplay the loa, with the provision that the GM has final say if the loa starts acting out of character.

For instance, I highly doubt a Shango-mounted mambo would call on a free spirit bound to the mambo. But if the battle was going against the spirit, I'd allow it.

Generally speaking, being mounted by a loa spirit should be a Big Deal. It's really the main voodoo trick, and is ideal for the climax of a story or a big battle when you need the edge. Little thematic details-walking on broken glass, drinking too much, smoking big black cigars and pressing the smoldering butts into the forearm-shouldn't damage the mount in any significant way (I consider hangovers acceptable).

Oh, now he edits it. Doesn't matter in the long run.

*whoosh*

I was pretty much on target with my guess on spirit types.

All full magicians can conjure earth, air, water, and spirits of man. That's 4. Hermetic can conjure fire spirits while shamen can conjure spirits of beasts.

It costs to be magically active, then it costs some more to have a totem.