Changes to Magic - Dumpshock Forums

Changes to Magic

SL James View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 06:12 PM Post #101
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	God, I hope not. What about Adept powers like Combat Sense, which adds dice to Combat Pool and allows percentages of Combat Pool dice to be used for Surprise Tests. If there isn't a combat pool in Fourth Edition, then we lose my favorite Adept power. If there's something like it, then... what could it be? Rob mentioned in the mp3 Adam put up that there might be some tactical programs in Unwired (or whatever the Matrix books will be called in the end) that work like the Initiative bonus provided by the Small Unit Tactics skill (Actually he said they'd "add Initiative dice" which is itself something I will ask about later), which is something the Tactical Computer provides a bonus to, and that piece of tech in Man & Machine happens to work like a cyber version of Combat Sense. So... I don't know where I'm going with this anymore. Basically, what about Combat Sense?

tisoz

Jul 12 2005, 06:38 PM

Post #102

Free Spirit

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QUOTE (Eldritch)

But will we see magic items usable by mundanes?

Magic shields?

Magic Armor?

Enchanted Missle weapons?

Right, things that were not possible under the current rules.

As far as that goes, how about an armor spell that doesn't scream, "Kill me!"?

Eldritch

Jul 12 2005, 07:09 PM

Post #103

Moving Target

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QUOTE (tisoz)

QUOTE (Eldritch @ Jul 12 2005, 12:01 PM)

But will we see magic items usable by mundanes?

Magic shields?

Magic Armor?

Enchanted Missle weapons?

Right, things that were not possible under the current rules.

As far as that goes, how about an armor spell that doesn't scream, "Kill me!"?

Ya, with magic getting easier - spells cast at any force, summoning any kind of spirit - it's a valid question :)

MY Opinion: That magic is apperently getting easier based on what we've been told so far. Yeah, it may be streamlining, but it still equals easier as far as the setting goes. The question is will they explain it in game as a rise in mana, or just ignore it. (A-la grounding)

Synner View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 07:50 PM Post #104
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	From my experience I'd say magic isn't any easier. Furthermore people are mistaking the streamlining and unification of the underlying mechanics with unification of the in game paradigms of magic, mana, spirits of each tradition respective. For instance, in game, hermetics will still call elementals and shamans will still call nature spirits (it's the rules behind them that have been redressed and altered).

Eldritch

Jul 12 2005, 08:11 PM

Post #105

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I dunno; knowing fireball, and being able to cast it at whatever level you want, is easier than knowing fireball 4, and stuck with casting a level 4.

Hermetics can now summon an 'unbound' spirit on the fly - he couldn't do that 'five years ago'. Shamens can now bond a nature spirit to them for loinger than the dusk/dawn time limits. Thats also 'easier'. (IMHO)

Those two items alone comes across as - in my interpretation - magic is easier to use.

QUOTE

the bound vs unbound spirits...Everyone will be able to summon both types of spirits, the unbound are like the old shaman type, the bound like the hermetic. So both spirits are still there, just every tradition has access to them. If I remember correctly there are 6 base spirits and every tradition chooses 5 they can summon (or are determined by tradition). More will be added in the Magic book.

If this is described correctly, then is <I>sounds</i> like that if you wanted to, you could choose a couple elementals, an a couple nature spirits as your spirit 'base' = though I may be reading that wrong. It says limited by tradition, I assumed limited by a shamanic tradition.

Synner

Jul 12 2005, 08:57 PM

Post #106

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QUOTE (Eldritch @ Jul 12 2005, 08:11 PM)

I dunno; knowing fireball, and being able to cast it at whatever level you want, is easier than knowing fireball 4, and stuck with casting a level 4.

That's a possibility, particularly when seen out of context of other changes - such as the new variable Magic rating and its impact and the new breakdown of magic skills and their respective costs, and whatever system of Drain ends up being used.

QUOTE

Hermetics can now summon an 'unbound' spirit on the fly - he couldn't do that 'five years ago'. Shamens can now bond a nature spirit to them for loinger than the dusk/dawn time limits. Thats also 'easier'. (IMHO)

It means they're more flexible not necessarily that its easier or more common, particularly taking into account the new Conjuring Skills. For those of you preocupied with "in game" consistency and continuity, assume the breakthroughs necessary for the bound/unbound conjuration are a natural evolution of the UMT principles being explored in SOTA64 (but which have been around the SR academic magical community since at least '61).

QUOTE

Those two items alone comes across as - in my interpretation - magic is easier to use.

Again, considering them as is and out of context I would agree with you.

QUOTE

the bound vs unbound spirits...Everyone will be able to summon both types of spirits, the unbound are like the old shaman type, the bound like the hermetic. So both spirits are still there, just every tradition has access to them. If I remember correctly there are 6 base spirits and every tradition chooses 5 they can summon (or are determined by tradition). More will be added in the Magic book.

If this is described correctly, then is <I>sounds</i> like that if you wanted to, you could choose a couple elementals, an a couple nature spirits as your spirit 'base' = though I may be reading that wrong. It says limited by tradition, I assumed limited by a shamanic tradition.

While I can't go into it any further that is an incorrect interpretation. I will only clarify that as has been mentioned elsewhere (ruleswise) there are 6 spirits types. IIRC Each tradition is able to conjure 5 of those spirits types and they manifest as spirits fitting that tradition's "in game" paradigm... Hope that helps.

hermit View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 09:06 PM Post #107
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121	So you mean by 6 spirit types something like the following list: - watchers - unbound spirits - bound sprits - great form spirits - posessive spirits - allies Did I get that correctly?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 09:15 PM Post #108
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	I doubt that "toxic" is going to be on the list, as that would either open up the Toxic way to PCs or result in every PC spellslinger having the same list. More likely is that they have spirit types 1-6, and toxics get 5 out of spirit types Toxic 1-6, inheriting 1-6 but with the toxic additions/alterations. ~J

hermit View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 09:22 PM Post #109
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121	Allright, what other kind of spirit could be meant? Edit: changed my list. Lwa posess people too, that's not a speciality of inect shamen. Which, by the way, just got a lot more mighty.

Synner View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 09:28 PM Post #110
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	I think it's not going too far by saying that list doesn't reflect the intended breakdown in SR4.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 09:28 PM Post #111
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	-fire spirits -water spirits -air spirits -earth spirits -spirits of man -watchers -ancestor spirits -allys maybe?

Eldritch View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 09:33 PM Post #112
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	That list sounds good - except for toxic. I would guess you can have toxic bound, unbound, ally and even wathce4rs - Toxic might be a traddition. Ancestor maybe? ** Sorry Synner, either I'm not explaining what I mean very well, or your not getting it :)

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 09:33 PM Post #113
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	My guess is that insect shamans, if they don't have a rules exception, are also just going to have a new spirit type that inherits normal spirit types. ~J

Eldritch View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 09:45 PM Post #114
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	Eh, I'd put Insect under Nature Spirits - A 'Limited by tradition' type clause. As well as Blood. And toxic would just be a 'template' to slip over any tradition. Loa as well - a limited by tradition type. And ally, well that would kinda suck it that were a type you'd have to choose from. Who's gonna want to waste initial char resources on a spirit he may not be able to summon for years? I'd slip Ally as a meta-magical technique. (Assuming you can not add that 6th type in later somehow) Watchers elementals nature spirits Ancestor Thats a good start, but no guesses on the rest. Or I could be completley off base. :P

Synner

Jul 12 2005, 09:47 PM

Post #115

Runner

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QUOTE (Eldritch @ Jul 12 2005, 09:33 PM)

Sorry Synner, either I'm not explaining what I mean very well, or your not getting it :)

No problem. But I do think I understand the point you're making. What I'm trying to say is that, you are using an SR3 context as reference for evaluating relative "ease", when you should be using SR4 as reference. For instance:

QUOTE

I dunno; knowing fireball, and being able to cast it at whatever level you want, is easier than knowing fireball 4, and stuck with casting a level 4.

Should be considered within an SR4 framework which we've been told includes:

a variable Magic rating - which may or may not impact the relevant "dice pool" (SR4 FAQ)
where the human attributes average - including Magic - are rating 3 (Origins podcast).
where Force is capped at 2x Magic Rating (demo player's info from Origin)
where Sorcery skills have been broken down into multiple skills (SR4 FAQ and Origins podcast).
where Conjuring skills have also been broken down into multiple skills, further dividing your BP/karma expenditure (SR4 FAQ and Origins podcast).
where skills in general cost more at above average levels (SR4 FAQ).
How Drain is calculated -and reduced- is unknown.

Eldritch View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 09:56 PM Post #116
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	Yeah, I get that. But lets say someone starts off an expierenced runner campaign in SR4 - something closer to the power level of a starting sr3 char. So it would be possible to have a magic: 6 character - with higher skills. I guess thats what I'm getting at; a comparable SR4 char vs a Comparable beginning SR3 char.

Synner View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 10:11 PM Post #117
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	I'm assuming that at the very least a Magical character converting from SR3 is going to have his skills reduced when broken up or will have to reallocate those skill points at SR4 costs to SR4 skills (pretty much the route I believe a conversion guide will go to keep abuse in check) - which might make him slightly more powerful than the default SR4 newb character, but not immensely so. The introduction of Skill Groups (mentioned at Origins) also changes things a bit.

hermit View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 10:20 PM Post #118
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121	Can you give us a clue as to how these work? Are these now put between the actual skill and attributes when defaulting?

Synner View Member Profile	Jul 12 2005, 10:21 PM Post #119
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	Nope. Although iirc the second part of the podcast (which Adam has promised to upload as soon as he can) should clarify Skill Groups further.

apollo124 View Member Profile	Jul 17 2005, 05:19 AM Post #120
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246	Got my list of 5 spirit types right here Toxic spirits Blood spirits Insect spirits Sheddim either Great Dragon spirits (Ghostie and Dunkie) or one minor Horror :P

Kremlin KOA View Member Profile	Jul 17 2005, 06:02 PM Post #121
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650	Feel the power of the Dark side of the Farce :P :evil:

Velocity

Jul 19 2005, 05:14 PM

Post #122

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QUOTE (blakkie @ Jul 5 2005, 07:39 AM)

That there was nolonger a need for that kludge

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

There was never the need for that kludge. The problem with pre-SR4 magic is that people lost sight of what the magic system was designed as and tried to either combine elements that didn't go together (...)

Mind clarifying that, Kag?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 19 2005, 05:39 PM Post #123
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	The short version: I don't feel that traditions other than hermetics or shamans (and adepts), or combinations of traditions (like physical adepts, or Universal Magical Theory hermetic-shamanic crossbreeds), belong in Shadowrun. While they've been made unplayable, I feel that the only "valid" new tradition offered has been psionicists—precisely because they aren't a new tradition, just somewhat delusional followers of one of the base two traditions. Blakkie is assuming that other traditions or hybrid traditions should be implemented (or implementable), and that therefore the inelegance of such implementations under the current rules demonstrates that the rules are flawed. The correct view, in my opinion, is that other traditions and hybrids have no place in Shadowrun, and that the need for a kludge to introduce them reflects that the entire idea is an attempt to fit a square peg into a SODIMM slot. ~J

Shadow

Jul 19 2005, 05:43 PM

Post #124

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

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QUOTE (Synner)

converting from SR3 is going to have his skills reduced when broken up or will have to reallocate those skill points at SR4 costs to SR4 skills

Any clues on the conversion system, with the several new attributes, and all the skills dropped, and stats capped at 6, how are characters with all atts above 6 and a bunch of 9 and 10s in skills be converted?

Synner

Jul 20 2005, 12:13 AM

Post #125

Runner

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jul 19 2005, 05:39 PM)

The short version: I don't feel that traditions other than hermetics or shamans (and adepts), or combinations of traditions (like physical adepts, or Universal Magical Theory hermetic-shamanic crossbreeds), belong in Shadowrun. While they've been made unplayable, I feel that the only "valid" new tradition offered has been psionicists—precisely because they aren't a new tradition, just somewhat delusional followers of one of the base two traditions.

Forget about the hybrid Awakened or traditions - what about Wuxing (or any other Oriental tradition)? Or Voudoun? Or Hindustani mysticism. Rule them out? Ignore them? Force pretend they have anything in common with Hermeticism and Shamanism?

The guys who created the Hermetic/Shamanic duality in the first place quickly thought better of it (Grimoire I added Voudoun, London added Druidism and TNO added the Path of the Wheel). The problem was the way they chose to implement it not the fact that they included new traditions.

And by the way UMT suggests breakthroughs in overcoming specific practical limitations thought to be tradition-based, not any actual fusion in traditions/paradigms and their underlying beliefs.

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